How does one get the DLX to properly MIX before developing the gluten?

[pizzoid]

I've only made a half dozen batches, including two 8 pounders in my DLX2000. But it seems to develop the gluten so fast, the flour isn't smoothly incorporated before it gets too tough to be worth continuing.

I want to figure out how to get the DLX mixer to MIX. That thing can knead and develop gluten like nothing else I've used, but I can't get it to just mix as well as the old KitchenAid. Our cats could use the dough for bungee jumping off the top floor! The gluten develops way before the dough is smooth. Looks like the chunky cellulite on my thighs, not the finer stuff which might be found on those of a gracefully aging slender Italian model....   (sorry, figured it was far enough after dinner nobody would spew pizza on their computer screen.....)

After a day's retard in the fridge, it doesn't _seem_ to make a lot of difference in the final product, but it's bothering me. For one thing, I occasionally have to make a 30 minute dough.

I've tried starting with  flour first, water first, starter first, trying Varasano's technique of wet kneading with autolyse for the first 75% of flour. I'm going for lower hydration than him, so mine's not as wet.  I've been using a starter for 10 or 20% of the mix, and I wonder if that may be part of it, because I've been using part of that 50 lb bag of Sir Lancelot, in a 50/50 flour/water mix. After 3-4 days, the gluten in the starter is so developed I can't pour it without cutting it off the lip of the container.

Having shoved my KitchenAid to the back corner, I'm loath to go back to it, because of its limited capacity. Also, what I'm doing so far in the DLX would have the KA wheezing, groaning, and reaching for its nitro pills.

The thing I'm thinking of trying next is upping the water temp for a 90F or higher finished dough. Since that will speed the yeast, I'll probably have to cut back on it. I've been coming out of the knead at 82F or so. I'm using 1/4 tsp.  IDY and 1 tsp. kosher salt per 10 oz finished dough ball, 59% hydration, the rest calculated using Jeff's wonderful spreadsheet. Dough still slumps a bit more than I'd like in proofing, but I don't think I want less water. I haven't been adding any oil or sugar in for these experiments, and that might also have an impact.

Any suggestions out there, or more desired, comments on already solving this problem so I don't have to experiment quite so much?

Thanks, Al

[scott r]

wow, there is so much to this I am not sure where to start.   Al, do you ever get up to Boston??  I just bought a 50lb bag of KASL that I haven't even opened yet.  I'll trade you the full electrolux/kasl tutorial in person for a little bit of that grande 50/50 blend and a can of bonta.   

I am around every day this week working at home, and I would have no problem taking a break to go through a full mix with you.

A few quick things.

Always use slow speed
Always start with water first
Start by slowly adding 1/2 your recipe's flour over the course of a minute or two, then very slowly adding the remaining flour over the next 10 minutes or so.
Always use your dough hook, not the roller and scraper if you are making a batch that starts with 1000g of water or more.
Rest periods when mixing really high gluten flour like this can't hurt.  Even towards the end.
Realize that the dlx is not good with low hydration doughs, especially with the roller and scraper.  I have posted this warning many times on this forum.  Still, it can be done right with a little work.

[pizzoid]

wow, there is so much to this I am not sure where to start.   Al, do you ever get up to Boston??  I just bought a 50lb bag of KASL that I haven't even opened yet.  I'll trade you the full electrolux/kasl tutorial in person for a little bit of that grande 50/50 blend and a can of bonta.   

I am around every day this week working at home, and I would have no problem taking a break to go through a full mix with you.

A few quick things.

Always use slow speed
Always start with water first
Start by slowly adding 1/2 your recipe's flour over the course of a minute or two, then very slowly adding the remaining flour over the next 10 minutes or so.
Always use your dough hook, not the roller and scraper if you are making a batch that starts with 1000g of water or more.
Rest periods when mixing really high gluten flour like this can't hurt.  Even towards the end.
Realize that the dlx is not good with low hydration doughs, especially with the roller and scraper.  I have posted this warning many times on this forum.  Still, it can be done right with a little work.

I was going over some of this a week or so ago with PizzaPolice. He recommended starting with the water, a higher speed for just starting to mix, almost like a centrifuge, until the flour starts incorporating. I've been adding my glutinous starter at the beginning and trying to "thin" it with the water for 2-3 min. before starting to add flour. Last two tries I made 72 oz. batches  (7  12" pies), using the roller. I think that was <600g water plus ~200g in the starter. I'll give it a try with the hook.

I've been using 2 rest periods mixed in, one autolyse at the start after 50-70% flour incorporation, another one after the rest of the flour gets added,. Still get the lumpness. After the first hook experiment, I may try sifting it in. After thinking about it, the hook definitely does more folding instead of the squashing you get from the roller.

Do you consider 58-59% to be "low hydration"?

I don't think I have time to drive up for a lesson this week, unfortunately. Gotta go pick up a case of Grande in New Bedford this afternoon or tomorrow, then make a 24 ball  batch of dough on Friday for a pie party this weekend, plus 2 deep dish experiments for dinner Friday. And then there's that annoying "work" thing.........

I expect it's something simple I've read 4 times in the forum or on Jeff's site, and am just spacing on when trying the mixing.

 -Al

[scott r]

I think the key to fix your problem is a much slower addition of your flour. and a higher hydration dough.

Yes, 58-59 is much lower than I can get out of the dlx, especially with the roller and scraper.  This is not necessarily a bad thing, because I think the KASL performs better above 60% anyhow.  Try just increasing your recipe slightly to 61% or so and you will have a much easier time mixing and more than likely a better finished crust as well. 

Don't worry about high speed, the dlx already moves very very fast at the slowest setting.  Especially with the problem you are having you are better off with a long slow knead than a fast paced one, even at those beginning stages.  The problem here is that you are not moving the mixing process slow enough to get everything smoothly incorporated.

Once you are adding the final stages of the flower (slowly) you will reach a point where the dough is just starting to form a ball around the scraper.  At this point, don't add all the flour.  Just walk away and let the dlx knead at this stage for a while.  Soon, it won't be able to knead at all when you get the last bit of flour in there, and your machine is just sort of spinning without doing any work.

If you reach the point where the dough is just sort of spinning and not mixing into itself and you have flour left over you are going to have to finish it by hand. 

The dlx makes the best doughs with the roller and scraper, so if you are making a batch with 1000g of water or less definitely use the roller and scraper.  You will get the hang of it. 

Don't be afraid to make some test batches that you throw away while you are learning how to do this slow knead.  Flour is cheap when you buy big bags like we do.

Good luck, and feel free to call me if you have any questions while you are prepairing for your weekend!

[EdF]

Scott,

Do you have any idea what the RPMs are at the various settings on the DLX (roughly, obviously)?

Where in the Boston area are you?  We're in Ipswich.

- Ed

[scott r]

ed, I don't know, but the sucker can move FAST.  Al wasn't kidding when he said it could act as a centrifuge.  I have often thought about hooking mine up to a variac to slow it down a little facilitating an even longer slower mix.

I live right in the Back Bay.

[pizzoid]

I think the key to fix your problem is a much slower addition of your flour. and a higher hydration dough.

Yes, 58-59 is much lower than I can get out of the dlx, especially with the roller and scraper.  This is not necessarily a bad thing, because I think the KASL performs better above 60% anyhow.  Try just increasing your recipe slightly to 61% or so and you will have a much easier time mixing and more than likely a better finished crust as well. 

I started up aroung 62%, but in proofing it all flowed into a single layer instead of staying in slumped balls. That's a little too extensible!

Don't worry about high speed, the dlx already moves very very fast at the slowest setting.  Especially with the problem you are having you are better off with a long slow knead than a fast paced one, even at those beginning stages.  The problem here is that you are not moving the mixing process slow enough to get everything smoothly incorporated.

Once you are adding the final stages of the flower (slowly) you will reach a point where the dough is just starting to form a ball around the scraper.  At this point, don't add all the flour.  Just walk away and let the dlx knead at this stage for a while.  Soon, it won't be able to knead at all when you get the last bit of flour in there, and your machine is just sort of spinning without doing any work.

If you reach the point where the dough is just sort of spinning and not mixing into itself and you have flour left over you are going to have to finish it by hand. 

The dlx makes the best doughs with the roller and scraper, so if you are making a batch with 1000g of water or less definitely use the roller and scraper.  You will get the hang of it. 

Don't be afraid to make some test batches that you throw away while you are learning how to do this slow knead.  Flour is cheap when you buy big bags like we do.

Good luck, and feel free to call me if you have any questions while you are prepairing for your weekend!

I'll give some tries at 60%, and see if I can slow down adding the flour even more. I've been taking over a minute to add it. Once the starter has been mixed with the water, I've been running it at slowest speed.

Thanks, Al

[EdF]

We bought one a month or so ago, and have done one batch using the Jeff V method - didn't come out bad at all - aside from my learning curve cooking pizza on the Egg.  But we also recently picked up Jeff Hamelman's  Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, and he talks about knowing what the RPMs are, and so were curious.

[pizzoid]

We bought one a month or so ago, and have done one batch using the Jeff V method - didn't come out bad at all - aside from my learning curve cooking pizza on the Egg.  But we also recently picked up Jeff Hamelman's  Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes, and he talks about knowing what the RPMs are, and so were curious.

I'll try to stick a marker on the bowl and figure it out sometime over the next 2 days. I'll be making three batches, in any case.

- Al

[EdF]

Cool.  Thanks!

[BenLee]

I don't have a DLX, I have a kitchen aid and have been making dough in that for a long time.  However, I tried making it in my kitchen aid food processor using the plastic blade.  I used Jeff's wet kneading technique.  This blade spins extremely fast and I probably let it mix a little too much during the late stage because it got pretty hot.  It didn't kill the yeast but rose pretty damn fast.  Anyways, I'm going off on a tanget.  Using the food processor, I was able to get a dough that windowpaned more than any dough I've previously made.  I wonder if the low speed is just to prevent any heating but I found that the high speed food processor gave me the best dough I've ever made. 

[Pete-zza]

BenLee,

Did you add the flour to the water or water to the flour? I tried Jeff's recipe using my Cuisinart food processor (with the plastic blade) and had an interesting experience with it, as I described at Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3573.msg30375/topicseen.html#msg30375. In my case, I added the flour to the water, which turned out to be a big mistake. I haven't tried the recipe again using my food processor but next time I will add the water to the flour, as is my usual practice.

Peter

[BenLee]

I kinda started with a batter.  I didn't do any measuring as I usually do things by feel when cooking (which is ironic because I'm a Chemist).  But, basically, the batter (or starting stage) I worked with didn't splatter at all with the Cuisnart type food processor on full blast.  It was moving nicely and I kept gradually adding flour.  I only did this for a total of 3 minutes or so.  Once I added enough flour, it turned into a dough and stuck to the center.  I let it rest for about 20 minutes and then hand kneaded into the balls.  It was amazing.  Just trying to separate the dough in order to hand knead it was so hard because I guess it was a good knead.  After that, I took a little to do the window pane test and had fantastic results.  My suggestion is find out how much hydration you can work with where it's still in a liquid/batter like state but doesn't splash around.  The batter was moving around the processor fast but wasn't splattering at all.  In fact, I didn't even have to clean the top piece of the processor.  Consequently, this was also the first time I tried cooking my pizza by fooling the self-clean cycle and hit it on the head with the first try, without a thermometer to read the temp of the stone or oven.  I guess is just got lucky on the first try but I have a knack for that in both cooking and the chemistry lab.  For some reason, I usually get the final product I expect with little attention to detail.

On a side note, I used a kitchen aide food processor.  Speed and blade size/shape may have a lot to do with it.  I'll have ot try it on my parents cuisinart.

[varasano]

here's something to try with a food processor: do the autolyse, but no wet knead. (Start with 100% of the ingredients). Mix in food processor for 2 minutes or less. That's it.

Jeff

[BenLee]

here's something to try with a food processor: do the autolyse, but no wet knead. (Start with 100% of the ingredients). Mix in food processor for 2 minutes or less. That's it.

Jeff

I'll try it but what is the result I'm looking for?  I once made a dough, not very wet, and got sick of kneading it by hand after 2 minutes and tossed it in the food processor with the metal blade for like 30 seconds and shaped it and left it.  It turned out ok but this was when I was a novice.

Doing the wet knead with the food processor has given me the best kneads so far.   I still haven't payed attention to how much flour/water I have.  I just pay attention to how it behaves. 

When it starts sticking to the center, I add a little more flour and then let it rest. 

On a side note, I'm wondering how long you can wet-knead before something bad starts happening.  This dough is so structured that I have trouble pouring it out of the mixer after it's done.  It stretches so much. 

[pizzoid]

Scott,

Do you have any idea what the RPMs are at the various settings on the DLX (roughly, obviously)?

- Ed

I (finally) just measured mine. Slowest setting yields 55 RPM.

- Al

[EdF]

Thanks, Al.