Author Topic: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method  (Read 92171 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #120 on: September 17, 2008, 06:11:57 PM »
Dan,

As I have noted several times before on this forum, I am not personally a fan of making and using frozen doughs. However, if making a frozen dough were my objective, I would come up with a dough formulation designed specifically for that purpose. More specifically, I would use a medium strength flour such as bread flour (or a less strong flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten), a lower than normal hydration, ice cold water, double or triple the normal amount of yeast (and rehydrate it, even if IDY), more salt, a bit of sugar (or honey for its rheology benefits), ascorbic acid (Vitamin C), and I would divide and freeze the dough balls as soon as possible after making (or maybe after a brief rest period).

One of the reasons I came up with the alternative KitchenAid dough making method was to produce a dough that ferments slowly over a long period of time in the refrigerator. If you think about it, the alternative method can be considered a substitute for freezing a dough because timewise the fermentation period is similar to the period of time that is normally recommended in a home freezer setting for freezing a dough before using—which is about 10 days, and no longer than two weeks. The advantage of the alternative method is that the dough develops a lot of by-products of fermentation while it is in the refrigerator that contribute to the taste, texture and aroma of the finished crust. By contrast, a frozen dough, or at least one frozen at the outset, develops no by-products of fermentation while it is frozen. It is only after thawing and warming up before using that by-products of fermentation are produced. If you’d like to learn more about some of the recommended procedures for making frozen doughs, you might take a look at Reply 272 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17428.html#msg17428.

Rather than making and freezing some version of a dough made using the alternative dough making method, I think I would consider making a skin using that method and par-baking it for later use. Once par-baked, the crust can be frozen, refrigerated, or kept at room temperature for a few days. For details on how to make a par-baked crust, you might take a look at Reply 120 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg10061.html#msg10061. As you will note there, it is possible to dress and freeze a par-baked skin, or even the dressed unbaked skin, but I did not try either of those options. I opted instead to dress and finish baking the par-baked crust at a later time. As you might expect, the par-baked crust will not rise anymore when baked for the “second” time, and the crust can dry out some more during the second bake. However, all things considered, the overall results will generally be good.

Peter
P.S. If you want to omit the smiley from posts, check the "Don't use smileys" box as you compose your reply. It is usually only the number 8 that has this problem.


Offline Mendocino

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #121 on: October 14, 2008, 09:21:33 PM »
Hey Peter

I am very new to this forum, having made deep dish sicilian style (family recipe) through my highschool college years. 

Bola Bola has recently inspried me to trying my hand at NY style pies.  Since I am a scientist by trade, and know particularly nothing about this style, I chose your first post as to where I would begin.  I chose to duplicate your recipe except I would make 4 dough's utilizing 4 different flours: Caputa, KA High gluten, KA Bread flour, and KA all purpose.  I plan on making all the pies with the same toppings/sauce (undecided), and try them all in my new 2stone Pro, perhaps after 24-36 hours of frige time.  I have nearly every can tomato in my arsenal. 

If I have hijacked this thread, I will start one of my own.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Jake

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #122 on: October 14, 2008, 09:40:36 PM »
Jake,

If you plan to use the methods and techniques described in the first post of this thread, there is no reason why you shouldn't post your results in this thread since it is the methods and techniques I described that are paramount. However, if you plan to use only the recipe, even with different flours, then you might find it better to start a new thread under the NY Style board of the forum where it will be more readily noticed by the members. Even if you decide to use the methods and techniques of the opening post, you should still feel free to start a new thread if you would like to highlight your specific efforts. Please let me know how you will proceed. 

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #123 on: January 03, 2009, 11:09:22 AM »
Recently, at Reply 722 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg65487.html#msg65487, I described a modified Lehmann NY style dough formulation that utilizes many of the principles of dough making described in this thread for achieving a long, cold fermentation of several days, in this case, 12 days. One of the key features of the dough was using active dry yeast (ADY) in dry rather than rehydrated form. Earlier in this thread, at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg37060.html#msg37060, I described the use of ADY in a dry form, but adding the ADY at the end of the dough making process rather than combining the ADY dry with the flour at the outset. Also, in the experiment described in Reply 35 I used a higher hydration (65%), which no doubt allowed the dough to ferment faster than in the case of my latest experiment reported in Reply 722 referenced above. The latest experiment demonstrates that it is possible to use ADY in nonrehydrated form and still get good results. However, I add the caution that such use should perhaps be limited to only those applications where it is desired to achieve unusually long dough lives, for example, in excess of six days. For other applications, my recommendation is the standard one that applies to using ADY, and that is to rehydrate ADY in a small amount of warm water at around 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes.

The photo below is one of the photos that I took showing the finished pizza using the dry ADY method.

Peter

Offline Mendocino

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #124 on: January 05, 2009, 11:00:58 AM »
Hey Pete-zza, that looks great.

For the New Years Winter Ice Classic, Red Wings vs Hawks, I decided to do a side by side with olive oils.  I used Classico, trader Joes extra virgin, and Lucini's (Red November's reccomendation via another thread).  I have to say I was quite surprised, as the Lucini's was much chewier, with a near perfect bubbling.  The others were good, but not up to the caliper of the Lucini's. 

Thanks for the great thread as this method has been a staple for me on my PizzaPro.

Jake

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #125 on: January 05, 2009, 11:12:33 AM »
Jake,

Thanks. And thanks for bringing the Lucini oil back to our attention. With a commercial recipe like the Lehmann recipe, I usually don't use the highest quality oils, salts, etc. That is something I perhaps should pay more attention to.

Have you been using the various principles and techniques described in this thread to make doughs that can last for several days in the refrigerator? And, if so, what principles and techniques have you found to work the best for you, and how many days do you shoot for? In the pizza shown, I got 12 days, and I expected more residual sugar in the dough to contribute to more crust coloration. To compensate, I used a longer bake time, which resulted in the cheese developing a thin crust, which shows up in the photos in orange. When you conduct experiments like the one described, you can't always tell what you are going to get, and you usually end up improvising to get the best results under the circumstances. In most cases, it takes a few tries to work out the kinks and get things just right.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 11:20:12 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Mendocino

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #126 on: January 05, 2009, 11:28:40 AM »
Pete-zza

Actually, I have been doing either a 1-2 day fermentation.  I tried to go longer in the past, however I have a full household, and the firdge is opened/closed ALOT during an average day, and sometimes I even find the door cracked open.  Some of my doughs have even progressed to the point of running out of my container's, and going dry.  I now have settled on a 24 hr, until I get a dorm fridge for the garage.

I have been using your original exp from the beginning with two slight mod's.  After the yeast is added I add all remaining ingredient and paddle on "2" for 2-3'.  I next add the hook and go 5 full minutes at 2 as well.  The texture greatly improved for me bumping the speeds/times, since it is rather cold now and the dough doesn't heat up much at all.  I suspect this will change when temps here in Sacramento hit the high 90's again in the summer.  I have also found that with your original dough recipe, the KA high gluten organic baked at 650 (give or take) on my 2stone for 3' is perfect. 

Oh yea- I also used fine sea salt, you know us Californians  :) .  Perhaps I will give Kosher a try

I think I am going to play with hydrations/sugar and higher temps on my next go rounds.  They above dough doesn't do too well above 750, as crust will overcook, prior to the middle being finished.

Jake
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 11:30:45 AM by Mendocino »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #127 on: January 05, 2009, 11:58:17 AM »
Jake,

In my case, I made the dough and put it into the refrigerator a day before leaving town for the Xmas holidays. The next time I checked the dough was seven days later, when I returned home. So, there was no opening and closing of the refrigerator door. Maybe I could have used the dough at that time but when I saw that not much had happened to the dough in terms of expansion and the spotting was not at an advanced stage, I decided to let the dough go longer. The good news is that it is possible to make a dough that far in advance and get results that are better than a dough with much less fermentation time. I had a couple of leftover slices of the pizza today for lunch and the crust flavors were much more complex than what I would normally get with a dough with a couple of days of fermentation under its belt.

Peter

Offline BillE

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #128 on: March 19, 2009, 09:20:21 PM »
Hi Pete-zza,

I've been reading this thread with great interest, along with the massive Tom Lehmann NY Style Pizza thread, and I’m very curious to try out the Lehmann's NY Style dough.
For the past few years, I've been using Reinhart's NY Style Pizza Dough after experiencing mediocre success with many dough recipes from various books and the Internet. I have been very happy with Reinhart's NY Style dough from "American Pie", however, after viewing the Lehmann's forum on this site, I knew I would have to try out his recipe, using the dough conversion formulas for 14 and 16 inch pizzas that you’ve kindly contributed to the forum...saving me a lot of work!!
1) I wanted to know, Pete-zza, if you recommend using the new whisk, paddle, hook technique that you devised for this thread to prepare Lehmann's traditional recipe which calls for a 24-48 hour slow-rise in the refrigerator?  Or is your new technique meant only for the 6, 7 day and beyond slow refrigerated fermentation that you've been experimenting with?

2) Also, I would like to try out the Lehmann’s dough recipe, using your new mixing technique to ferment the dough for about 3 to 4 days in the refrigerator, and not beyond that. This is because I want to experience the taste of fairly long fermented dough without the dough picking up that grayish or purplish tint to it. Could you provide a basic template for me in regards to a 3 to 4 day dough with recommended ingredient list and amounts for me to experiment with, along with proper water temperature? 
Also, would you recommend using sugar in such a recipe, or would 3 to 4 day fermentation in the fridge bring out enough of the flour’s natural sweetness. I definitely would like to continue using oil in my dough.

Needless to say, I use a Kitchen Aid mixer for my dough preparation. I also bake my pizza on a 1/2" thick pizza stone in a 525 degree oven.

Thanks

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #129 on: March 19, 2009, 10:48:35 PM »
BillE,

I commend you for having the stamina and fortitude to read both of those threads. I suspect you and I are the only two people on the planet who have done this.

For your information, I recently converted the Reinhart NY style dough formulation to a baker's percent format, at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.msg69678.html#msg69678. With the baker's percent format, you should be able to make any number of Reinhart NY style pizzas of any desired size. You can also change the crust thickness if you'd like. If you need help on this, let me know by posting in the abovereferenced thread.

The Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a more classic NY style than the Reinhart dough formulation in that it uses no sugar and very little oil (1%). By contrast, the Reinhart NY style dough formulation calls for over 6% oil and either 2.8% sugar or about 5% honey. In my opinion, the Reinhart dough formulation produces a pizza with a thin NY crust but with taste and texture characteristics of an American style. Consequently, the Lehmann NY crust will be quite different than a Reinhart NY crust. I mention this since if you like sweetness and tenderness in your crusts, you are quite likely to prefer the Reinhart version.

The alternative method using the whisk, flat beater attachment and dough hook was intended to be a broad and generic method that can be used for most doughs that have fairly high hydration levels (this pretty much excludes very low hydration doughs used to make certain cracker-style pizzas). As such, it can be used to make a Lehmann NY style dough that will have a fermentation window of 1 to 4 days, which includes the 3-4 day example that you mentioned. Whatever the duration within the above window, however, I would add the yeast (IDY) to the flour at the outset rather than at a later stage, which was a technique I developed to get much longer fermentation times. For a 3-4 day fermentation window, I would use water directly out of the refrigerator, with the objective of getting a finished dough temperature that is somewhat below normal (the normal range is 75-80 degrees F for a standard home refrigerator) so that the fermentation window can be extended out to 3-4 days without the dough overfermenting. If you can achieve the lower finished dough temperature, you should be able to get away with using no sugar in the dough. Of course, this means that you may have to do some experimenting to determine if this can be done in your particular operating environment. Alternatively, you can just assume that some sugar should be used and add it to the dough as insurance. About 1-2% should be enough for this purpose.

If you can tell me what size and number of pizzas you would like and the desired window of fermentation (I assume it is 3-4 days), I should be able to come up with a dough formulation for you to try out. It would also help to know whether it is warm or cool this time of year where you live since that will give me a better idea as to the water temperature to use. For example, if you can tell me your kitchen temperature this time of year, that would be a big help. For best results, I recommend that you use either bread flour or a high-gluten flour, which are the same options available with the Reinhart NY style dough formulation. I will need to know which flour you elect to use so that I can adjust the hydration to be commensurate with the flour used. If you would like to increase the amount of oil above 1%, this is also something that can be done easily. However, I don't think that I would go above 3%. But that is up to you.

Peter


Offline BillE

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #130 on: March 20, 2009, 09:32:14 AM »
Pete-zza,

Thank you so much for your quick response.
 
As far as my stamina and fortitude in reading the Lehmann thread and this thread, I had no choice in the matter; it was like trying to put down a good novel. I was intrigued by the progress you've made with the Lehmann's dough over the years along with the interesting input from various members of this "pizza forum to end all pizza forums". I kind of related it to my own experiences in trying to make decent pizza at home, which started out as pulling 12" hockey pucks from my oven, to making pizza that I find more desirable than the average pizza joint in Queens, NY and Long Island [where I grew up], New York City [where I started working], and New Jersey [where I moved to after getting married].
I first went to Defara's in Brooklyn a couple of years ago after hearing about it from food writer David Rosengarten in an article he had written on his favorite New York pizza parlors. Tasting Defara's pizza brought me back to a time when I was growing up during the late 1960's and early 1970's. Quality pizza like Defara's was very common back then as most pizza joints were family-owned with a pizzaiolo who would fling his pies in the air; something I don't see anymore. I would assume that the quality of ingredients was much higher, as well. Heck, some of the best pizza I ate at during that period were small non-descript neighborhood joints which had old, ash-embedded Bari ovens. I believe that the ash in those metal ovens helped contribute to the unique taste in the crusts, just as an old well-seasoned cast-iron skillet or wok would do. Defara's oven is like that, as well.
I remember this 'hole in wall joint' in Grand Central Station back in the late seventies that consistently served one of the best pizzas I ever had. Alas, it's been gone for about 20 years now. 
Pizza has gotten so bad in the last 30 years or so, that I feel I have no choice in the matter as far as making my own. You really have to do your homework to know where to go in New York for a decent slice of pizza these days. The great Peter Reinhart was a lifesaver to me with his New York Style dough. However, after viewing a three-part video of Tom Lehmann showing his pizza-making method in the factory, and the vastly different make-up of his dough recipe from the Reinhart recipe, along with your inexhaustible, informative contribution in the Lehmann thread, I knew I had to give the Lehmann’s dough a whirl.

To answer your questions about my New Jersey pizza environment –
 
Outside temperature is averaging from low to upper 40's. The 50's should be right around the corner since today is the first day of spring.
Average kitchen temperature is 72 degrees.
I always use KA Bread Flour and ADY. [f you think IDY would work better, I can order some SAF instant yeast from King Arthur Flour].
I own a 14 by 16 pizza stone and mostly make 14" pizzas with it. I'd like to stay with 14" pizzas.
As far as desired amount of oil, I’d like to try 1%. I can always increase it to 2%, if needed.
My targeted fermentation window would be 3-4 days.
And since you said it was ok to use your new (whisk, paddle, dough hook) method, that’s the method I’d like to use.

Thanks so much for your help,

BillE



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #131 on: March 20, 2009, 10:56:05 AM »
BillE,

Based on the information you provided, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with a dough formulation for one 14" pizza and a second one for two 14" pizzas:

Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation for One 14" Pizza
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
ADY (0.27%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165.02%):
245.16 g  |  8.65 oz | 0.54 lbs
152 g  |  5.36 oz | 0.34 lbs
0.66 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
4.29 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.77 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
2.45 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.54 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
404.56 g | 14.27 oz | 0.89 lbs | TF = 0.0927
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.09; bowl residue compensation = 3%

Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation for Two 14" Pizzas
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
ADY (0.27%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165.02%):
Single Ball:
490.31 g  |  17.29 oz | 1.08 lbs
303.99 g  |  10.72 oz | 0.67 lbs
1.32 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
8.58 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
4.9 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
809.11 g | 28.54 oz | 1.78 lbs | TF = 0.0927
404.56 g | 14.27 oz | 0.89 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor =0.09; bowl residue compensation = 3%

You will not from the above tables that the nominal thickness factor I selected is 0.09. That is typical for a NY street style pizza and a bit thicker than a NY elite style. For comparison purposes, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.117-0.119 for the Reinhart NY style dough formulation you have been using, which is considered a "medium" thickness value. The above formulations also call for using ADY instead of IDY. As you know, you will have to rehydrate the ADY in a small amount of the formula water (about 1/4 cup should be sufficient), at around 105 degrees F, for about 10 minutes. The rehydrated ADY can then be added to the rest of the formula water or to the other ingredients in the mixer bowl. To compensate for dough losses during the preparation of the dough, which tend to be higher than normal when using the whisk/flat beater/dough hook method, I used a bowl residue compensation of 3%. What I usually do after the dough has been made is to weigh the dough and trim it back if it is greater than the calculated value. In your case, the calculated dough weight for one 14" pizza should be 3.14159 x 7 x 7 x 0.09 = 13.86 ounces; for two dough balls, the weight should be twice that, or 27.71 ounces.

For the water temperature, I think you can use about 72 degrees F. Ideally, you would like to get a finished dough temperature in the 75-80 degrees F range for a home setting using a standard refrigerator. However, that will depend on how fast you prepare the dough. In your case, I would add the portion of the water (at around 72 degrees F) not used to rehydrate the ADY to the mixer bowl after you have rehydrated the ADY so that the water doesn't warm up while the ADY is rehydrating. You should also be able to add the oil to the water at the same time. Some people prefer to add the oil later in the dough mixing/kneading process, which is the method recommended by Tom Lehmann himself, but I have not detected any differences when making small amounts of dough, as opposed to commercial quantities with which Tom is concerned.

For other general information on the preparation of a Lehmann NY style dough dough, you might also take a look at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html. The mixing/kneading method described there is with respect to the normal use of a KitchenAid stand mixer. That is a method that you can also use, although I believe that the whisk/flat beater/C-hook (or spiral hook) method should produce a better quality dough.

Good luck and I hope you will report back on your results.

Peter

Offline BillE

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #132 on: March 20, 2009, 03:41:46 PM »
Thanks a bunch for those formulas, Peter.

Actually, what I forgot to mention in my previous posts to you was that I had scaled back on some of Reinhart's finished dough after initially following his guideline for making a 12" pie out of 12" of dough because I did find it to be a tad too thick from what I was looking for. That "medium" thickness value that you correctly pointed out in your evaluation of Reinhart's finished pie is definitely not NY Style! Neighborhood pizza joints from 40 years ago in Queens, NY [a suburb of New York City] did put out somewhat heftier pies than what you see these days, with doughier, browner crusts, but not to the extent of Reinhart's recommendation in his book. Judging by your final dough amount for a 14" pizza, my instincts tell me that your formula is in the neighborhood for what I'm looking for.

A nice touch on Reinhart's part in regard to his "NY Style Sauce and Cheese Pizza" in "American Pie" is the inclusion of grated provolone into the cheese mixture; something I haven't seen in any other recipe that I came across. That one addition, helped bring about an aroma in my cooked pies that I haven't experienced since my youth during the late 1960's and early 1970's. His generous use of the particular final seasonings he chose to sprinkle on to the pie just before it goes into the oven also contributes to that nostalgic aroma, although I use a different sauce recipe that the two recipes he provided in his book.

Thanks again, and I'll be sure to report back on my results.

Have a great weekend.

Offline tsmys

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #133 on: April 22, 2009, 07:17:25 PM »
HI Peter,

I have been studying this thread with great interest and was greatly disappointed when I read that you don't reccommend this method for a KA mixer with the spiral dough hook.  As you may have guessed, my mixer has the spiral dough hook.  What a bummer!  can you point me in the right direction for someone with my style dough hook

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #134 on: April 22, 2009, 08:29:48 PM »
tsmys,

To be honest, I don't recall ever saying that one shouldn't use a spiral dough hook, under any circumstance. In fact, I have recommended spiral hooks over C-hooks to others on countless occasions. To be sure that I didn't mispeak or was unclear, I did a search of all my posts on the forum using the term "spiral" and I found only one instance in this thread where I used that term, at Reply 131 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg70786/topicseen.html#msg70786. I did not dismiss the spiral hook in that post (see the next to the last paragraph in that post). Maybe you can tell me where you read that I said that one shouldn't use a spiral hook with the methods described in this thread. Using a spiral hook would be a big improvement over my C-hook.

Peter

Offline tsmys

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #135 on: April 23, 2009, 09:14:33 AM »
Adam,

One of the things you have to always keep in mind is that a basic, low-level KitchenAid mixer is not a particularly good machine in my opinion to knead pizza dough. It would be possible to knead the dough longer and reduce the "pebbling" effect but then you may end up with an overkneaded dough. I have noticed in any event that the pebbling tends to diminish as the dough ferments.

Jeff's dough will always look better than what I can make with my machine. He is using a DLX, which does a much better job kneading dough than my mixer. The whole objective of this thread is predicated on trying to coax better performance out of my KitchenAid machine. The thread has little value to those who have DLXs, Santos mixers, or even the KitchenAid mixers with the spiral hook.

Peter
Here is the post I was refering too.  I guess you didn't specifically reccommend against using this method with the spiral hook, but it sure sounds like maybe going through all these extra steps may be overkill.  Here's the thing, Pete, I want to learn how to make the best pizza possible and if this is the method I should be practicing great, but if it is just a bunch of extra steps that won't improve the end product maybe I should be trying something else.  Thanks for your patience!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #136 on: April 23, 2009, 10:52:29 AM »
tsmys,

Since I have never worked with a KitchenAid stand mixer with a spiral hook (or with a DLX or a Santos mixer) to make pizza dough, I may have been a bit premature in suggesting that this thread may not have much value to those with such mixers, especially those with spiral hooks that replaced C-hooks in later versions of the KitchenAid stand mixers. I do believe that using sifted flour and the whisk attachment (and even the wire beaters that come with an electric hand mixer) help improve the hydration of the flour and have value even to that limited extent, and without requiring a formal autolyse to get improved hydration. The flat beater attachment in combination with the C-hook or, in your case, the spiral hook, play a greater role in the kneading process, usually after the dough has already been quite well hydrated. Using a spiral hook should lead to an even better quality dough than I can achieve using my C-hook. All it takes in your case is to try the methods described in this thread using your spiral hook and decide for yourself whether going through the extra steps is worth the effort. 

Peter

Offline tsmys

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #137 on: April 23, 2009, 01:12:13 PM »
Thanks again Peter.  I kind of figured that the spiral hook would work.  I guess I'm just kind of gun shy after that "emergency" pizza fiasco the other day.  I'll give it a try soon and report back so you won't have to answer the same dumb question again! :)

Offline tsmys

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #138 on: April 23, 2009, 06:56:52 PM »
OK, Peter, I just made a dough ball for a 14" pie using this method that I plan on cooking tomorrow.  I went with a 60% hydration to help the dough be easier to work and .40 IDY since I plan on finishing this pie tomorrow.  I just didn't have the patience to wait several days to see how this is going to work out!  Tommorrow I plan on making 2 more doughs for and extended proof.  If all goes well with todays dough, I'll raise the hydration to 62% and lower the IDY to .25.  (Although I'm not sure how accurate my IDY measurements really are; my scale only reads to a full gram).  I tried to follow your procedure as closely as I could although I did deviate a couple times.  I threw the IDY on top of the twice sifted KASL and stirred it in a little before adding the flour to the water since this will be finished tomorrow.  I also had all the flour added before I changed to the flat beater.  I shoveled the flour in a TBLS at a time without waiting for it to be incorporated.  Is that too fast?  When I got to the spiral hook stage I thought the dough looked a little dry and wasn't coming togeather as I expected so I added a TBLS of water.  This proved to be a mistake.  The extra water went straight to the bottom of the mixer bowl and allowed the dough hook to push the dough around the bottom of the mixer bowl instead of kneading it.  A higher mixer speed had no effect so a quick hand knead was used to get back on track.  The finished dough ball seemed heavy for it's size and fairly stiff.  Having no idea what a "good" dough ball should feel like I don't know if that is good or bad.  I do know that the finished dough didn't look as smooth as yours seem to, it still had a few seems in it but, hopefull, nothing too serious.  I did take a picture of the finished dough but, alas, I was on the laptop and it's battery went dead while I was downloading the pictures and all was lost.  Will try again tomorrow.

Offline tsmys

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #139 on: April 23, 2009, 07:04:42 PM »
One more thing.  I have the dough ball in a round 2qt. plastic cambro container with the lid on.  Would you suggest I cut some slits in the lid to relieve gas pressure?  Thanks again for putting up with me!