Author Topic: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method  (Read 103328 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #150 on: April 24, 2009, 10:35:14 PM »
tsmys,

I'm glad to hear that things worked out better for you this time. Since your use of more yeast might have altered things, you might want to repeat the exercise to satisfy yourself that it wasn't a fluke. I think you will also find that a longer fermentation time (e.g., two or more days) will affect the extensibility of the dough, although using a hydration of 60% will mitigate some of that effect. On the plus side, the longer fermentation should produce a better crust with more flavor and a better texture.

Peter


Offline BillE

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #151 on: April 30, 2009, 05:51:36 PM »
Pete-zza,

I tried out the formula that you provided for me in post #131 of this thread for 2 14" pizza's. I let one dough ball ferment in the fridge for 2 days and the other ball for 4 days. Unfortunately, I found the resulting crusts of both pizzas to be rather bland in flavor. When I removed the 4 day old dough from the fridge, the top of it had tiny, tiny, bubbles on top of it and a series of 1/4" and 1/2" bubbles at the bottom which I viewed from the glass bowl it was fermenting in. It had a nice sweet, yeasty aroma to it, yet baked into a bland-tasting crust even though the color of it was a light gold with a few brown spots. The 2 day old dough also had a nice aroma to it, yet yielded the same blandness. Also, in both, I thought the crusts were a bit too chewy for my taste, so I made one 14" dough recipe in which I tripled the amount of oil from 1/2 tsp. to 1 1/2 tsp. Was better, but still a bit too chewy for me.
I figured, at this point, that I would play around with the recipe by adjusting water temperature and then yeast quantity, if need be.

Before doing this, however, I happened to be in the bookstore and came across a book about no-knead bread-baking titled "Kneadlessly Simple" by Nancy Baggett. I've heard about this revolutionary way of preparing bread dough, and after thumbing through it's pages and seeing that it also contained a no-knead pizza dough recipe, I decided to purchase it.
Well let me tell you, using the book's recipe, I ended up with the best-tasting pizza crust I ever made in my 6 years of making pizza's! Definitely better than my previous favorite recipe, Peter Reinhart's N.Y. Style pizza dough from "American Pie".

Baggett cites her inspiration for the use of ice-water in the dough recipe from Philippe Gosselin's Pain a`l' Ancienne method which she read about in Reinhart's "The Bread Baker's Apprentice". Also, the  mixed final dough, before fermentation, resembles Reinhart's 'Pizza Dough 1' recipe from his book "Crust & Crumb", in that the dough's hydration is so high (15 oz AP flour to 12 oz water) that it must be spread out on oiled parchment with oiled fingertips into a pizza shape. (I like this because no need of messing up the counter top with extra flour).
Also, there's no sugar in the recipe, yet because of the long, cool fermentation at around 68 degrees, the flour's natural sugars are drawn out resulting in great crust-color and subtle sweet flavor. Another reason for the great crust-color is the wetness of the dough which allows for additional baking in the oven without drying out the inside of the crust.
The recipe called for a 25-45 min. rest of the stretched out pie before baking. I had let mine rest for 25 min. which resulted in a medium-thin crust similar to what tsmys displayed in post #149 on this thread. Being a native New Yorker, next time I'm going to try a 5 min. rest before baking in order to get a thinner crust.
Baggett recommended a 500 degree oven that's been preheated for only 20 min before baking, however, my instincts told me to preheat for the usual 1 hour instead, with a pizza stone of the bottom rack. Also, my oven goes up to 525 degrees, so that's what I had set it to and I enjoyed great results.
My wife, who routinely discards her pizza crusts, ate every bit of it with this recipe as the inside was like Italian bread and the outside had a slight crunch to it along with it's great flavor.
At this point, I have no need to experiment with other pizza dough recipes, rather, I'll be trying out the muffin, dinner rolls, and bread recipes from this fabulous book.

Here's the no-knead pizza dough recipe:

Ingredients - 15 ounces unbleached all-purpose flour (plus more if needed) (I used KA All Purpose Flour)
                   generous 1 1/4 tsp table salt
                   1/2 tsp instant, fast-rising, or bread machine yeast
                   scant 1 1/2 cups ice-water (about 50 degrees according to book) plus more if needed.
                   1 TBLS olive oil


In a large bowl, thoroughly stir together the flour, salt, and yeast with a wooden spoon. (Can also use a mixer with paddle attachment, which I did). Vigorously stir in the water, scraping down the sides, just until thoroughly blended. Stir in the olive oil until evenly incorporated. After a minute or two of stirring, should end up with a single, sticky, yet firm mass, (just past the point of being a thick batter). There should be no clumps of wet dough on the sides of the bowl; add a little more flour if there is. If the mass of sticky dough is too difficult to stir, add a little more ice-water to facilitate mixing.
At this point, the book says to brush the mass of dough with olive oil and divide in half after the first rise, since this recipe makes two pizzas. (However, I though it best to divide in half right away and then let it rise so that the stretching out later would be easier, the same as you always recommend Pete-zza.)
Brush top of dough (or doughs) with olive oil and cover bowl with oiled plastic wrap.
Let the first rising take place at cool room temperature, (68-70 degrees) No Higher. for 4-12 hours. (For best flavor and/or convenience, the dough can be refrigerated for 3-10 hours BEFORE the 4-12 hours cool room temperature rising. I refrigerated mine for 8 hours before the cool room temp rise.
After the first rising at cool room temp, stir the dough ball in their bowls to deflate them, then transfer each to a piece of 14" oiled parchment paper. Drizzle the top each dough with a little olive oil, oil your fingertips, then gently stretch out dough to desired pie thickness. I pretty much stretched it out as far as I could with out tearing the dough and leaving the edges slightly thicker. Your instincts will likely guide you with this process.
Tent each formed pie with non-stick spray-coated foil or oiled plastic wrap and let rise for 25-45 min. depending how thick you want your finished crust. I found that a 25 min. rise yields a med-thin crust and like I said above, I'll be trying out a 5 min. rise to get it a little thinner.
For baking, the book says to preheat oven for 20 min at 500 degrees with a rimless baking sheet, or an upside-down rimmed sheet on the lowest rack, and transferring the pizza (with no toppings) and parchment (or the pizza on a lightly-oiled pizza pan) onto the baking sheet to cook for 7-10 min until firm and puffed up. Then to take it out of the oven to spread on your sauce, add cheese and/or other toppings then returning to oven for additional 10 min or until nicely browned.
What I did instead, was to preheat my 14 by 16 inch pizza stone on the bottom rack at 525 degrees for one hour, place all my toppings on the pizza, and baked it on the stone. It took about 10 min, instead of the usual 6-7 min to cook it to the proper crust color. The parchment turned a light brown during baking, without burning. What I neglected to do was to place the finished pie on a cooling rack after removing from oven to retain crispness. I'll definitely try that the next time.
 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #152 on: April 30, 2009, 08:48:58 PM »
BillE,

Thank you very much for reporting back on your results using the Lehmann dough formulation I gave you. It is always helpful to determine what you like so that you don't spend too much time going down a nonproductive path.

There are limitations to what the Lehmann dough can deliver in the way of taste in the finished crust. The Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a commercial formulation intended to make dough for professional pizza operators that is cold fermented for up to 2-3 days before using. It is not intended to make an artisan pizza with a crust bursting with flavor. In order to coax more flavor out of a Lehmann dough, you have to do certain things. These include 1) using the methods described in this thread to make a dough that can endure up to 23 days of cold fermentation, 2) converting the Lehmann dough formulation to a preferment format, such as a poolish/sponge/biga/old dough preferment format, 3) using a natural starter or preferment in lieu of the commercial yeast normally used for the Lehmann dough formulation, or 4) modify the Lehmann dough formulation to produce a dough that ferments strictly at room temperature for several hours up to almost a day. I have done just about all of these things at one time or another. I do it because I enjoy the learning process but most people are unwilling or unprepared to use most of these alternatives because they are not easy to do and they take time. Most people would like to have their pizzas while they are still young.

The use of a no-knead dough to make pizzas has been covered on this forum on different occasions, including most recently at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7745.0.html. The Reinhart Baker's Apprentice pizza dough formulation has been discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,203.msg1397.html#msg1397. I showed how to make a 20-24 hour room temperature fermented  dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332. For a very high hydration rustic dough formulation, see http://hollosyt.googlepages.com/quickrusticciabattapizza. Most of the results using these formulations will yield crust flavors that exceed what you will get from a normal cold fermented dough, including the Lehmann dough.

In light of your success with the Baggett dough, you might want to start a new thread to bring the Baggett formulation and methods to the attention of the members. We have quite a few members who have interest in no-knead doughs.

Peter


Offline BurntEdges

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #153 on: May 01, 2009, 11:17:30 AM »
For a very high hydration rustic dough formulation, see http://hollosyt.googlepages.com/quickrusticciabattapizza.

Pete-zza,

I'm an avid follower of your Kitchenaid method and use it for just about every dough formula with great success.  Thank you.

The above link you provided looks like a great pizza for a home oven using a Kitchenaid.  Have you tried it?

Although a photograph caption indicated that it was a 100% hydration recipe, I used the mass - volume food calculator which reflected one cup of water being about 237 grams; - then went to the dough calculator to convert the recipe into weights:

Flour (100%):
Water (94.8%):
IDY (1.2%):
Salt (2.8%):
Total (198.8%):
250 g  |  8.82 oz | 0.55 lbs
237 g  |  8.36 oz | 0.52 lbs
3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.46 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
497 g | 17.53 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = N/A

Since the yeast is not being activated in this recipe, I'm assuming it's IDY?  I'm used to using 1/4 of a teaspoon for such a quantity of dough so 1 teaspoon seems excessive, but it is a 2 hour dough.
Please let me know if this conversion seems correct and my guess on the IDY .  Thanks.

If anyone else has any experience with this recipe, please chime in on your results.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 01:51:00 PM by BurntEdges »

Offline BillE

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #154 on: May 01, 2009, 01:37:23 PM »
Pete-zza,

Thanks so much for the links!

I have to say, the thought of a Lehmann dough rising in the fridge for a few weeks is a wild concept. I can only imagine the flavor of the final crust.
You have me curious about your 20-24 hour room-temp fermented dough; will certainly give that a try, and will get back to you with my results.

Have a great weekend.

Bill

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #155 on: May 01, 2009, 02:26:25 PM »
The above link you provided looks like a great pizza for a home oven using a Kitchenaid.  Have you tried it?

Although a photograph caption indicated that it was a 100% hydration recipe, I used the mass - volume food calculator which reflected one cup of water being about 237 grams; - then went to the dough calculator to convert the recipe into weights:

Flour (100%):
Water (94.8%):
IDY (1.2%):
Salt (2.8%):
Total (198.8%):
250 g  |  8.82 oz | 0.55 lbs
237 g  |  8.36 oz | 0.52 lbs
3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.46 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
497 g | 17.53 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = N/A

Since the yeast is not being activated in this recipe, I'm assuming it's IDY?  I'm used to using 1/4 of a teaspoon for such a quantity of dough so 1 teaspoon seems excessive, but it is a 2 hour dough.
Please let me know if this conversion seems correct and my guess on the IDY .  Thanks.


BurntEdges,

No, I have not tried the rustic dough recipe. However, it is on my "to do" list.

You are correct that the recipe does not use a hydration of 100%. Not long ago, a member sent me a PM on the recipe and I converted it to baker's percent format and saw that the hydration was not 100%. I also got the same set of baker's percents that you recited, although I was using table salt for conversion purposes whereas you appear to be using Morton's Kosher salt. I imagine that is is possible to use the whisk/flat paddle combination with the recipe although I usually stick with the instructions given for a recipe that I am trying for the first time. However, I think that you could really rev up the whisk attachment for a fair amount of the dough, at least until it bogs down.

Recently, one of our members, djones148, provided a link to thefreshloaf.com website, at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5285/sullivan-street-potato-pizza, in which a poster described making a dough with a hydration of over 100%. That would also be an interesting dough to try. I did a Google search and found what appears to be the Glezer dough recipe at http://notitievanlien.blogspot.com/2008/04/sullivan-street-potato-pizza-english.html.

I believe you are correct that the yeast in the dough formulation you posted is IDY. If the water was really warm (120-130 degrees F), it would be possible to add ADY directly to the flour, but the recipe is silent as to water temperature. So, I would guess that the yeast is IDY. For a dough to be made and used in a short period of time, the amount of yeast would have to be high.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 02:37:42 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline BurntEdges

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #156 on: May 01, 2009, 03:05:00 PM »
Pete-zza,

I usually use cold filtered water around 40'F for your Kitchenaid method.  With all the beaters to run through on your method, I strive to keep the finished dough temperature as low as possible for a 5 to 7 day nap in the frig.  With the rustic dough recipe, you are correct in that the water temperature is unspecified.  Knowing the approach of that recipe and its intended use 2 hours later, what water temperature would you suggest I try?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #157 on: May 01, 2009, 03:15:31 PM »
With the rustic dough recipe, you are correct in that the water temperature is unspecified.  Knowing the approach of that recipe and its intended use 2 hours later, what water temperature would you suggest I try?

BurntEdges,

With all the yeast (1.2%), I don't think that it will really matter what the water temperature is (within reason). I think I would just go with room temperature water. If you try the recipe, it would be interesting to know what the finished dough temperature is.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #158 on: November 19, 2009, 09:25:43 AM »
Peter,
The experiments you did here were amazing.  All of your pizzas looked tasty.  Your many day fermentation have me thinking how would I apply this to my recipe.  ::)  Since I read you did add oil and didn't add oil to different experiments, I still want to add oil.  In some of your experiments you used really cold water for the longer fermentation. 
I am still going to do some experimenting on the recipe I now am using and see if I can push it to 8 days like the dough I left in the deli case. Do you have any ideas of what I can do to the recipe I am using?  I am going to try the 3 little dough balls this coming week to see if they will give me the same results as this week.  I do have some frozen dough balls left out from this week and I will be going over to market tomorrow to do some cleaning.  Do you suggest I get a few dough balls out of the freezer and see what happens with them?
This is the recipe I now am using.  Almost the same recipe you help me with.

15 lbs.

Flour (100%):    4222.04 g  |  148.93 oz | 9.31 lbs
Water (59%):    2491 g  |  87.87 oz | 5.49 lbs
IDY (0.26%):    10.98 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.64 tsp | 1.21 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    73.89 g | 2.61 oz | 0.16 lbs | 5.13 tbsp | 0.32 cups
Olive Oil (1%):    42.22 g | 1.49 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.38 tsp | 3.13 tbsp
Total (162.01%):   6840.13 g | 241.27 oz | 15.08 lbs | TF = 0.1
Single Ball:   570.01 g | 20.11 oz | 1.26 lb

I really don't want to make too  many major changes to the recipe I am using, because it is working out well for me.  I really like the KASL flour.
In some of your experimenting here you are using higher levels of hydration.  How will that affect my recipe?   Will this longer fermentation work for me at the level of hydration I am now using? Also, I am having good success with using plastic bags to store my dough, so I don't want to change that either.
I am intrigued by the gray spots you report about.  I have never experienced them.
I don't know if any of these methods will be able to be used by me to get a consistent result from week to week, but do want to raise the level of my pizzas the best I can.
Thanks,
Norma





















Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #159 on: November 19, 2009, 03:28:31 PM »
Norma,

As you gathered, this thread evolved over time and took a life of its own, with each experiment suggesting another, and then another, and so on.

In the very beginning, all I was trying to do was to get greater efficiency out of my basic KitchenAid mixer with a C-hook. Using the whisk attachment and the flat beater attachment along with the C-hook gave me that greater efficiency. This was followed by the desire to get a longer dough life than what I had achieved up to that time. I decided to use the Lehmann NY style dough formulation as a vehicle for that experiment. I was able to use the higher hydration (65%) because the new KitchenAid method, along with sifting the flour, allowed me to do this. I also liked the idea of a higher hydration because I felt that I would get better oven spring. However, I did later use a lower hydration. I think it was around 62%. But even with the higher hydration doughs, the doughs were not wet because of the improved hydration of the flour.

Most of the experiments I conducted in this thread used oil, mainly because I was using the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation that calls for oil. One of the experiments I conducted demonstrated that it was not necessary to incorporate the oil into the dough later in the dough making process, which is the method that Tom Lehmann advocates. Tom's method may work better for a commercial mixer but in my mixer I find it difficult to use Tom's method of later oil addition if the amount of oil gets above a few percent.

A key revelation, which was one that I believe contributed to longer useful dough life, was the idea of incorporating the IDY into the dough making process later in the dough making process rather than at the beginning. I believe that ThunderStik came to the same conclusion. Using cold water and trying to keep the dough as cold as possible for as long as possible were also important factors. I know that you are not using ADY, but I discovered that it was also possible to use ADY dry in a Lehmann style dough. I also used that method to make one of my Papa John's clone doughs.

With the above as background for your questions, I think in your case I would stay with your current dough formulation for now but make a few changes but not the actual baker's percents you are now using. First, I would use cold water. I used water out of the refrigerator. You may be able to use even colder water with your mixer but when I have tried using ice cold water in my home mixer, it is difficult to get good and efficient hydration of the flour. Second, I would add the IDY later in the dough making process rather than adding it to the flour up front. In your case, if you are adding the oil as Tom Lehmann recommends, the addition of the IDY can take place before or after adding the oil. Ideally, at the end of the process, you want to get a finished dough temperature under 70 degrees F and, if possible, even lower. I don't know if that is possible with your mixer.

I think you should be OK using the food grade storage bags that you have been using. I conducted many experiments using lidded metal containers to cool off the dough balls quicker, but I think the storage bags you are using should do a comparable job because they are of low mass and will be immediately exposed to the cooling action of your cooler. I have used this method in my experiments making frozen dough balls. Ideally, you want to get the dough balls into your cooler as soon as possible. Your cooler should operate at a lower temperature than my home refrigerator compartment but that advantage will disappear somewhat because of the much larger number of dough balls that you make compared with what I do at home.

If you decide to go forward with the above suggestions, it will be very interesting to see if you are able to extend the usual dough life of dough balls made in a commercial environment to the eight days that you have set as your goal. As with any experiment, the results you achieve, or fail to achieve, are still useful since they may suggest other experiments that might lead to the desired results. You will note that I have not suggested using less yeast at this stage. I would like to see how your current dough formulation works with the recommended changes before looking more carefully at the yeast quantity.

With respect to the frozen dough balls that you mentioned, I don't see any harm in defrosting and using them. Tom Lehmann usually advocates that frozen dough balls stored in a static freezer (such as a standalone home freezer or the freezer compartment of a home refrigerator) be used within 10 days, and maybe a few days longer.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #160 on: November 19, 2009, 04:34:11 PM »
Peter,
That was a very interesting experiment you did and all the twists and turns helped you gain knowledge that you didn't know before.  I liked your using a higher hydration of 65% and sifting the flour to give it a better oven spring.  Someday I would like to try a higher hydration, but will work on this experiment right now.  I have read about ThunderStik and his experimenting, also.  He has it down to what day of week to make his dough so he can plan what results he wants.  I hope I get there someday. 
The sifting of the flour would be too labor intensive for me.  I can see the benefits from that though. I have seen different posts of yours and others that have advocated the benefits of sifting. You said your key revelation was introducing you IDY later in the process.  Is that how you make most of your dough now?
My regular dough making goes like this.  I first add the water, then pour the flour in, add the IDY on top of one side of the flour, then the salt on the other side and start mixing.  This mixes about 2  minutes until the hook pick up all the ingredients off the sides and bottom.  (There isn't any residue there to wash after it is mixed).  Then I add the my oil and continue mixing until my dough is finished.  I drizzle the oil in while the mixer is mixing.  Do you want me to keep my mixing procedure the same?
I will try a smaller batch of dough this coming Monday with the addition of really cold water.  After the small batch is left in the deli case for 8 days I will try the dough.  I will report back what happens. 
I think I can get a lower dough temperature than 70 degrees F.  I had did some experimenting in the summer with colder water because it was warmer in the market and I had some dough then about 74 degrees F.  My mixer seems really strong, so if I have to I will add ice cubes. 
Thank you for your help and work you have done on this experiment.
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #161 on: November 19, 2009, 06:08:17 PM »
Norma,

Flour as it comes from the miller is already sifted. However, 50-lb. bags are subject to significant compacting during transit and storage. I suspect that commercial mixers are able to handle flour that is compacted. So, sifting flour in your case is not something that I would expect you to do.

With respect to your question as to whether I use the late addition of yeast all the time, I approach that question as I do with just about everything I do. I ask myself: What is it that I am trying to do, and what is the best way of achieving it? If the objective is to make a dough with a long useful life, which to me means six days or longer, I will add the yeast later in the process. For example, when I researched and developed the first Papa John's clone dough, I estimated that a true PJ dough ball had a window of usability of about 5-8 days. So, I added the IDY later in the dough preparation process, as I discussed at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. If I am not trying for a long useful dough life, I use the IDY in the normal manner, usually by adding it directly to the flour.

I think for now that you should continue to use your existing mixing/kneading regimen until we see if the recommended changes produce the desired results. In my home mixer I distribute the IDY over the dough mass being kneaded but I know that Tom Lehmann tells operators to just toss it on top of everything. That apparently works with a commercial mixer and should work in your case. I just don't trust my home mixer to produce the same kinds of results as a commercial mixer.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #162 on: November 19, 2009, 10:52:28 PM »
Peter,
I will start the experiment on Monday.  Then I will see what happens and ask for any recommendations you might have for me.
I don't know if you remember or not, but I did try your PJ's Clone dough earlier by mixing the dough on a Friday and trying it on Tuesday.  I was going to go further with that experiment, but summer got in the way.  The taste of the crust then was very good, but I couldn't see a big difference in the Lehmann recipe.  Maybe if I would have continued with that experiment I would have found out more.
This time I will proceed.
Thanks,
Norma

Offline SmokinGuitarPlayer

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #163 on: November 20, 2009, 12:28:05 AM »
Pete ... one thing I thought might be good to stick in this thread since its dealing with the KA mixer. I attended one of Peter Reinhart's classes this past week and he mentioned that the KA will only honor the warranty if the mixer is used at the 2 lowest speeds. If your mixer dies and when you call them they will ask you what speed you use. If you say anything other than the low speeds....they point out the fine print that voids the warranty if used at higher speeds. So be warned. I noticed that my mixer is making an unusual moaning sound lately ... hmmm............good thing I only use the low speeds!  :D
Guitar player, dealer and collector. Owner and operator of www.fredsmusicandbbq.com. Seller of barbecue grills and smokers, specializing on the Big Green Egg ceramic grill and all related barbecue cooking supplies...and Wood Fired Ovens and pizza making supplies.

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #164 on: November 20, 2009, 11:39:38 AM »
Norma, as Pete alluded to its best to make small changes. But I believe to get where you want to be that the yeast % will have to come down to .15%-.18% or somewhere in that general area.

As your dealing with much larger batches that means that the dough will sit out longer while your balling/bagging during which time the yeast will be doing its thing. And your cooler will be dealing with a much larger mass, but your cooler should be far better than what we have at home. I would also say with that many balls even in baggies stacking them is still a consideration, be sure you dont have bags stacked on bags.

Also note that that normally when you lower your yeast % your window of useabilty not only extends but it also widens out (up to a point). Meaning if you use a IDY% of 1 your window will only be about 12 hours give or take but with .1 you may have a window of 5 days where the dough is useable. And of course the best ones will be the ones at the tail end of that window. But it will be alot longer before the doughs are ready for use.

So you could end up with slow ferm dough with a 5 day window but it may not be ready until 5 days has passed. After which you could use it anywhere from day 5 to day 10 with good results.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 04:00:40 PM by ThunderStik »
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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #165 on: November 20, 2009, 12:27:22 PM »
ThunderStik,
It's good to hear your ideas.  Your input should help me because you already know more about dough than I do.  You can now make a dough and know when to use it for longer fermentation.  ;D
I know I am dealing with bigger batches and usually with my mothers help I can have the dough balled and bagged in 10 minutes. I have a 20 qt. Hobart planetary mixer and usually make only 15 lbs at a time and then ball. I do ball my dough on marble. If you want me to, I have a infrared thermometer and will use that on what you or Peter want me to. Of course for right now I will make a smaller batch to do the test on.  The market doesn't have too much heat during this time of the year and I will have to note what the temperatures are each time I make a batch and also the deli case temperature. 
For right now I will place the dough in the deli case right on the stainless steel shelves.  If need be I can get my pizza prep fridge down really low in temperature.  I have thermometer in both of them, so I can see what the temperature is.  They are usually about 38 to 39 degrees F, but depending on how much I open them the temperature can change. 
Your note about about lowering the percent of yeast is interesting.  I will keep that in mind in the future.  Since you know more about how dough ferments than I do your comments about how you have a 5 to 10 days window to use the dough after it ferments really has me thinking.  Do you mean after 5 days of fermenting then you have 5 to 10 days to use the dough?  I want to understand this more.
Thanks for your help,
Norma
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 12:30:23 PM by norma427 »

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #166 on: November 20, 2009, 12:52:50 PM »
Norma, first off make no mistake both you and Pete have a far greater knowledge of how doughs operate in a professional environment so I am in no way countering what Pete says, more adding to it.

You know your machines and environment better than either of us definately me. So I bow to Petes knowledge of the subject as my knowledge only pertains to my home environment.

The more yeast and yeast activity you start with the shorter amount of time the dough will be usable.

There are 2 points in the useability window, the beginning and the end. In the very beginning the dough is just fermented enough to use. In the end its almost to the point of over-fermentation in which the dough will be unuseable due to inability to handle it or it may be falling apart.

The lower yeast% you use the further the 2 points are apart, but it also takes longer to get to point 1 which is the beginning.

If you have alot of yeast that means there are more of the little beasties there to devour all the sugars in the dough. This means you will get to the point of breakdown faster (point 2). 

So knowing this you can experiment with different variables, hydration, yeast levels, salt levels, sugar levels, when to pitch the yeast, water temp and so to get the window (time between points 1 and 2) that you feel is best for your uses.

Did I help or make it worse? 

« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 04:05:40 PM by ThunderStik »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #167 on: November 20, 2009, 02:51:51 PM »
Earlier this year, in line with Bill's comments, I discussed some of the differences between making dough in a home environment versus a commercial environment, at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9049.msg78232/topicseen.html#msg78232. It was those differences that made me wonder whether it is possible to make large volumes of dough balls in a commercial setting and get long lives out of them. That is why I was happy that Norma was willing to give it a try. In my experiments, I was able to make doughs with long useful lives by using my more or less standard 0.25% IDY (my warm weather value). Norma is using 0.26% IDY. That is one of the reasons why I didn't suggest lowering the amount of yeast just yet. I would like to see if Norma can create dough balls with long windows of usability in a commercial setting without lowering the amount of yeast. That might also tell us how critical yeast quantity is to long dough lives.

BTW, I am not the only one who has make dough balls with long useful lives. Members Glutenboy, MWTC and Bryan S have also done so. For example, see Glutenboy's dough recipes at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4565.msg38409.html#msg38409 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66628.html#msg66628, the dough recipes by MWTC at Reply 46 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg68179.html#msg68179 and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4625.0.html, and the dough recipe by Bryan S at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42547.html#msg42547 (in relation to Reply 22). Note the variations in the recipes and methods used.

Peter

« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 06:13:13 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #168 on: November 20, 2009, 06:31:31 PM »
ThunderStik,
Thank you for your explanation and I do understand now what you are saying.  I appreciate any comments or advise because I want to learn more about dough and all that affects the dough process.  You are adding to my knowledge, which is good.
I know commercial operation have different equipment, but have seen so many delicious pizzas on this forum that are made in so many ways, that are better than a lot of commercial operations.  Because I have the time and am not making pizza everyday, this gives me the opportunity to try things many commercial pizza operators don't have the chance to do. 
Thanks,
Norma

Peter,
I can understand that the different equipment I use can or can not make a great pizza.  This is something I also want to see if I can make an airy crust, just as other members do at home.  Since I have started making pizza, I have changed my mind about a lot of pizzas I thought were really good.  Each time I have the chance to go to New York I try a different corner pizza place.  I really enjoy NY style pizza, but am now really tasting the crust and sauces.  It gives me a whole new perspective, on what I would like to achieve.
We will see what happens.  Peter if you want me to use the poppy seed trick, I still have poppy seeds at the market from the experiment I did before.  I can measure but I can't cube.  Hopefully if you want me to measure how far the poppy seeds would spread apart it would be the way I know how to do it. 
Norma

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #169 on: November 20, 2009, 06:45:40 PM »
Peter,
Here is the equipment and flour I have to work with.  Let me know what temperatures you think I should measure and I will keep notes.
The little dough balls in the deli case are what were left from last week, which I will see if they are still good this week.
Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #170 on: November 20, 2009, 07:01:47 PM »
Peter if you want me to use the poppy seed trick, I still have poppy seeds at the market from the experiment I did before.  I can measure but I can't cube.  Hopefully if you want me to measure how far the poppy seeds would spread apart it would be the way I know how to do it. 

Norma,

It's up to you to use the poppy seed method. If you decide to use that method, all you need to do is place two poppy seeds one inch apart on top of one of the dough balls at the center. When you reach the point where you plan to use the dough, you can measure the final spacing (it will be greater than one inch) and let me know what it is.

Peter

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #171 on: November 20, 2009, 07:17:18 PM »
Let me know what temperatures you think I should measure and I will keep notes.

Norma,

When I make pizza dough, I note several temperatures, including water temperature, flour temperature, room temperature and finished dough temperature. I don't usually measure the temperature of my refrigerator compartment since that can change a lot based on the items stored and the many openings and closings of the refrigerator door during the fermentation period. I don't want you to spend too much time measuring temperatures such that it slows you down, but it would be nice to know your water temperature, finished dough temperature and the temperature of your cooler when the dough balls have been placed into it. The temperature of your cooler is likely to be more constant than a typical refrigerator compartment.

It would also help to know how many dough balls you make and how long it takes you to divide and scale the dough balls before they go into the cooler.

Peter

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #172 on: November 20, 2009, 09:49:01 PM »
Peter,
Okay, I will follow what you have told me and use the poppy seeds, too.
Norma

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #173 on: November 23, 2009, 05:32:02 PM »
Peter,
I made 5 dough balls today for the tests and the temperatures were:
Water Temp   41 degrees
Flour Temp     62
Room Temp    58
Finished Dough Temp  56
Deli Case Temp  42
Number of Dough Balls Made 5 and How Long to Scale  6 minutes
Temp after forming dough balls  60
Poppy Seeds space 1" apart
I don't know if it is any value, but I used my PH meter and it PH was 6.2
Now to let the dough balls in the deli case until next Tuesday.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #174 on: November 23, 2009, 05:54:54 PM »
Norma,

You did a great job. Thanks for all of the data points.

Recently, I have been experimenting with doughs to be frozen, and to get a finished dough temperature of around 60 degrees F like you did I had to freeze everything: the flour, the yeast, the water (until ice formed on the surface of the water in the measuring cup), the mixer bowl, the flat beater attachment and the C-hook attachment. My room temperature was around 75 degrees F. That's the difference between living in Texas and living in Pennsylvania. I also had a devil of a time kneading the dough and getting good hydration of the flour, and had to do some hand kneading to make up for the inadequacies of my stand mixer. It looks like you had no problems making your cold dough in your mixer.

Peter