Author Topic: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method  (Read 89685 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #160 on: November 19, 2009, 04:34:11 PM »
Peter,
That was a very interesting experiment you did and all the twists and turns helped you gain knowledge that you didn't know before.  I liked your using a higher hydration of 65% and sifting the flour to give it a better oven spring.  Someday I would like to try a higher hydration, but will work on this experiment right now.  I have read about ThunderStik and his experimenting, also.  He has it down to what day of week to make his dough so he can plan what results he wants.  I hope I get there someday. 
The sifting of the flour would be too labor intensive for me.  I can see the benefits from that though. I have seen different posts of yours and others that have advocated the benefits of sifting. You said your key revelation was introducing you IDY later in the process.  Is that how you make most of your dough now?
My regular dough making goes like this.  I first add the water, then pour the flour in, add the IDY on top of one side of the flour, then the salt on the other side and start mixing.  This mixes about 2  minutes until the hook pick up all the ingredients off the sides and bottom.  (There isn't any residue there to wash after it is mixed).  Then I add the my oil and continue mixing until my dough is finished.  I drizzle the oil in while the mixer is mixing.  Do you want me to keep my mixing procedure the same?
I will try a smaller batch of dough this coming Monday with the addition of really cold water.  After the small batch is left in the deli case for 8 days I will try the dough.  I will report back what happens. 
I think I can get a lower dough temperature than 70 degrees F.  I had did some experimenting in the summer with colder water because it was warmer in the market and I had some dough then about 74 degrees F.  My mixer seems really strong, so if I have to I will add ice cubes. 
Thank you for your help and work you have done on this experiment.
Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #161 on: November 19, 2009, 06:08:17 PM »
Norma,

Flour as it comes from the miller is already sifted. However, 50-lb. bags are subject to significant compacting during transit and storage. I suspect that commercial mixers are able to handle flour that is compacted. So, sifting flour in your case is not something that I would expect you to do.

With respect to your question as to whether I use the late addition of yeast all the time, I approach that question as I do with just about everything I do. I ask myself: What is it that I am trying to do, and what is the best way of achieving it? If the objective is to make a dough with a long useful life, which to me means six days or longer, I will add the yeast later in the process. For example, when I researched and developed the first Papa John's clone dough, I estimated that a true PJ dough ball had a window of usability of about 5-8 days. So, I added the IDY later in the dough preparation process, as I discussed at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. If I am not trying for a long useful dough life, I use the IDY in the normal manner, usually by adding it directly to the flour.

I think for now that you should continue to use your existing mixing/kneading regimen until we see if the recommended changes produce the desired results. In my home mixer I distribute the IDY over the dough mass being kneaded but I know that Tom Lehmann tells operators to just toss it on top of everything. That apparently works with a commercial mixer and should work in your case. I just don't trust my home mixer to produce the same kinds of results as a commercial mixer.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #162 on: November 19, 2009, 10:52:28 PM »
Peter,
I will start the experiment on Monday.  Then I will see what happens and ask for any recommendations you might have for me.
I don't know if you remember or not, but I did try your PJ's Clone dough earlier by mixing the dough on a Friday and trying it on Tuesday.  I was going to go further with that experiment, but summer got in the way.  The taste of the crust then was very good, but I couldn't see a big difference in the Lehmann recipe.  Maybe if I would have continued with that experiment I would have found out more.
This time I will proceed.
Thanks,
Norma
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Offline SmokinGuitarPlayer

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #163 on: November 20, 2009, 12:28:05 AM »
Pete ... one thing I thought might be good to stick in this thread since its dealing with the KA mixer. I attended one of Peter Reinhart's classes this past week and he mentioned that the KA will only honor the warranty if the mixer is used at the 2 lowest speeds. If your mixer dies and when you call them they will ask you what speed you use. If you say anything other than the low speeds....they point out the fine print that voids the warranty if used at higher speeds. So be warned. I noticed that my mixer is making an unusual moaning sound lately ... hmmm............good thing I only use the low speeds!  :D
Guitar player, dealer and collector. Owner and operator of www.fredsmusicandbbq.com. Seller of barbecue grills and smokers, specializing on the Big Green Egg ceramic grill and all related barbecue cooking supplies...and Wood Fired Ovens and pizza making supplies.

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #164 on: November 20, 2009, 11:39:38 AM »
Norma, as Pete alluded to its best to make small changes. But I believe to get where you want to be that the yeast % will have to come down to .15%-.18% or somewhere in that general area.

As your dealing with much larger batches that means that the dough will sit out longer while your balling/bagging during which time the yeast will be doing its thing. And your cooler will be dealing with a much larger mass, but your cooler should be far better than what we have at home. I would also say with that many balls even in baggies stacking them is still a consideration, be sure you dont have bags stacked on bags.

Also note that that normally when you lower your yeast % your window of useabilty not only extends but it also widens out (up to a point). Meaning if you use a IDY% of 1 your window will only be about 12 hours give or take but with .1 you may have a window of 5 days where the dough is useable. And of course the best ones will be the ones at the tail end of that window. But it will be alot longer before the doughs are ready for use.

So you could end up with slow ferm dough with a 5 day window but it may not be ready until 5 days has passed. After which you could use it anywhere from day 5 to day 10 with good results.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 04:00:40 PM by ThunderStik »
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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #165 on: November 20, 2009, 12:27:22 PM »
ThunderStik,
It's good to hear your ideas.  Your input should help me because you already know more about dough than I do.  You can now make a dough and know when to use it for longer fermentation.  ;D
I know I am dealing with bigger batches and usually with my mothers help I can have the dough balled and bagged in 10 minutes. I have a 20 qt. Hobart planetary mixer and usually make only 15 lbs at a time and then ball. I do ball my dough on marble. If you want me to, I have a infrared thermometer and will use that on what you or Peter want me to. Of course for right now I will make a smaller batch to do the test on.  The market doesn't have too much heat during this time of the year and I will have to note what the temperatures are each time I make a batch and also the deli case temperature. 
For right now I will place the dough in the deli case right on the stainless steel shelves.  If need be I can get my pizza prep fridge down really low in temperature.  I have thermometer in both of them, so I can see what the temperature is.  They are usually about 38 to 39 degrees F, but depending on how much I open them the temperature can change. 
Your note about about lowering the percent of yeast is interesting.  I will keep that in mind in the future.  Since you know more about how dough ferments than I do your comments about how you have a 5 to 10 days window to use the dough after it ferments really has me thinking.  Do you mean after 5 days of fermenting then you have 5 to 10 days to use the dough?  I want to understand this more.
Thanks for your help,
Norma
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 12:30:23 PM by norma427 »
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #166 on: November 20, 2009, 12:52:50 PM »
Norma, first off make no mistake both you and Pete have a far greater knowledge of how doughs operate in a professional environment so I am in no way countering what Pete says, more adding to it.

You know your machines and environment better than either of us definately me. So I bow to Petes knowledge of the subject as my knowledge only pertains to my home environment.

The more yeast and yeast activity you start with the shorter amount of time the dough will be usable.

There are 2 points in the useability window, the beginning and the end. In the very beginning the dough is just fermented enough to use. In the end its almost to the point of over-fermentation in which the dough will be unuseable due to inability to handle it or it may be falling apart.

The lower yeast% you use the further the 2 points are apart, but it also takes longer to get to point 1 which is the beginning.

If you have alot of yeast that means there are more of the little beasties there to devour all the sugars in the dough. This means you will get to the point of breakdown faster (point 2). 

So knowing this you can experiment with different variables, hydration, yeast levels, salt levels, sugar levels, when to pitch the yeast, water temp and so to get the window (time between points 1 and 2) that you feel is best for your uses.

Did I help or make it worse? 

« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 04:05:40 PM by ThunderStik »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #167 on: November 20, 2009, 02:51:51 PM »
Earlier this year, in line with Bill's comments, I discussed some of the differences between making dough in a home environment versus a commercial environment, at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9049.msg78232/topicseen.html#msg78232. It was those differences that made me wonder whether it is possible to make large volumes of dough balls in a commercial setting and get long lives out of them. That is why I was happy that Norma was willing to give it a try. In my experiments, I was able to make doughs with long useful lives by using my more or less standard 0.25% IDY (my warm weather value). Norma is using 0.26% IDY. That is one of the reasons why I didn't suggest lowering the amount of yeast just yet. I would like to see if Norma can create dough balls with long windows of usability in a commercial setting without lowering the amount of yeast. That might also tell us how critical yeast quantity is to long dough lives.

BTW, I am not the only one who has make dough balls with long useful lives. Members Glutenboy, MWTC and Bryan S have also done so. For example, see Glutenboy's dough recipes at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4565.msg38409.html#msg38409 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66628.html#msg66628, the dough recipes by MWTC at Reply 46 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg68179.html#msg68179 and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4625.0.html, and the dough recipe by Bryan S at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42547.html#msg42547 (in relation to Reply 22). Note the variations in the recipes and methods used.

Peter

« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 06:13:13 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #168 on: November 20, 2009, 06:31:31 PM »
ThunderStik,
Thank you for your explanation and I do understand now what you are saying.  I appreciate any comments or advise because I want to learn more about dough and all that affects the dough process.  You are adding to my knowledge, which is good.
I know commercial operation have different equipment, but have seen so many delicious pizzas on this forum that are made in so many ways, that are better than a lot of commercial operations.  Because I have the time and am not making pizza everyday, this gives me the opportunity to try things many commercial pizza operators don't have the chance to do. 
Thanks,
Norma

Peter,
I can understand that the different equipment I use can or can not make a great pizza.  This is something I also want to see if I can make an airy crust, just as other members do at home.  Since I have started making pizza, I have changed my mind about a lot of pizzas I thought were really good.  Each time I have the chance to go to New York I try a different corner pizza place.  I really enjoy NY style pizza, but am now really tasting the crust and sauces.  It gives me a whole new perspective, on what I would like to achieve.
We will see what happens.  Peter if you want me to use the poppy seed trick, I still have poppy seeds at the market from the experiment I did before.  I can measure but I can't cube.  Hopefully if you want me to measure how far the poppy seeds would spread apart it would be the way I know how to do it. 
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #169 on: November 20, 2009, 06:45:40 PM »
Peter,
Here is the equipment and flour I have to work with.  Let me know what temperatures you think I should measure and I will keep notes.
The little dough balls in the deli case are what were left from last week, which I will see if they are still good this week.
Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #170 on: November 20, 2009, 07:01:47 PM »
Peter if you want me to use the poppy seed trick, I still have poppy seeds at the market from the experiment I did before.  I can measure but I can't cube.  Hopefully if you want me to measure how far the poppy seeds would spread apart it would be the way I know how to do it. 

Norma,

It's up to you to use the poppy seed method. If you decide to use that method, all you need to do is place two poppy seeds one inch apart on top of one of the dough balls at the center. When you reach the point where you plan to use the dough, you can measure the final spacing (it will be greater than one inch) and let me know what it is.

Peter

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #171 on: November 20, 2009, 07:17:18 PM »
Let me know what temperatures you think I should measure and I will keep notes.

Norma,

When I make pizza dough, I note several temperatures, including water temperature, flour temperature, room temperature and finished dough temperature. I don't usually measure the temperature of my refrigerator compartment since that can change a lot based on the items stored and the many openings and closings of the refrigerator door during the fermentation period. I don't want you to spend too much time measuring temperatures such that it slows you down, but it would be nice to know your water temperature, finished dough temperature and the temperature of your cooler when the dough balls have been placed into it. The temperature of your cooler is likely to be more constant than a typical refrigerator compartment.

It would also help to know how many dough balls you make and how long it takes you to divide and scale the dough balls before they go into the cooler.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #172 on: November 20, 2009, 09:49:01 PM »
Peter,
Okay, I will follow what you have told me and use the poppy seeds, too.
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #173 on: November 23, 2009, 05:32:02 PM »
Peter,
I made 5 dough balls today for the tests and the temperatures were:
Water Temp   41 degrees
Flour Temp     62
Room Temp    58
Finished Dough Temp  56
Deli Case Temp  42
Number of Dough Balls Made 5 and How Long to Scale  6 minutes
Temp after forming dough balls  60
Poppy Seeds space 1" apart
I don't know if it is any value, but I used my PH meter and it PH was 6.2
Now to let the dough balls in the deli case until next Tuesday.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #174 on: November 23, 2009, 05:54:54 PM »
Norma,

You did a great job. Thanks for all of the data points.

Recently, I have been experimenting with doughs to be frozen, and to get a finished dough temperature of around 60 degrees F like you did I had to freeze everything: the flour, the yeast, the water (until ice formed on the surface of the water in the measuring cup), the mixer bowl, the flat beater attachment and the C-hook attachment. My room temperature was around 75 degrees F. That's the difference between living in Texas and living in Pennsylvania. I also had a devil of a time kneading the dough and getting good hydration of the flour, and had to do some hand kneading to make up for the inadequacies of my stand mixer. It looks like you had no problems making your cold dough in your mixer.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #175 on: November 23, 2009, 08:47:37 PM »
Peter,
Yes, it is colder here now and the market isn't heated much until market day. 
That is interesting you are experimenting with freezing dough.  That is a lot to do freezing everything. 
My mixer didn't have any problem mixing the dough, but I might have turned it off before I should have.  The dough looked kind of raggy as you can see.  Usually my dough doesn't look like that.  I hand kneaded the dough some before I balled it. It was still so cold the temperature didn't go up much.  My dough also sits on a marble slab and that usually stays cooler than other things. If this dough doesn't work out, I will mix longer. 
I told you before I have frozen my doughs balls from the week before with good results, even after they were in the deli case or pizza prep fridge for two days.  Those dough balls were about 80 degrees when I was finished making the dough. 
I am going to use some of those dough balls tomorrow.  If I think about it tomorrow, I will take a picture of the dough after it is thawed out and after I open the dough.  I think Tom Lehmann said it is okay to freeze the dough up to about 10 days. 
What window of time are you looking for to use the dough after you freeze it?
Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #176 on: November 23, 2009, 09:18:12 PM »
Norma,

I don't want to get too far off topic but it dawned on me after I posted that your dough, with some modifications, could be frozen. The companies that make frozen bread dough and frozen dough balls significantly increase the amount of yeast and they shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 65 degrees F. My recollection is that Tom Lehmann also recommends a finished dough temperature of 65 degrees F. That is also the same number that I saw in Professor Calvel's book, The Taste of Bread. Typically, the yeast quantity is doubled from its usual value. In my case, because of the increased damage to the yeast cells through static freezing when using my refrigerator freezer, I usually triple the amount of yeast to compensate for the yeast damage. 

In your case, if you triple the amount of yeast and increase the amount of oil to about 3%, and make the dough the same way as you did, I think you will be in pretty good shape to freeze the dough. I think that your hydration is fine at 59% (frozen doughs usually have lower hydration values than normal), so I don't think there is any need to change that. Tom Lehmann generally recommends that dough frozen in a static freezer be used within 10 days, and sometimes he will go as far as 15 days. At some point, I plan to test 15 days and possibly longer. In preparation for using the frozen dough balls, you should let them thaw for about a day, or possibly two days, in the refrigerator compartment of your refrigerator. They can then be used in the usual manner after letting them warm up for an hour or two at room temperature (or maybe longer in your case with your cool workplace).

It also appears that your mixer did not introduce much heat to the dough you made. Based on the numbers you gave me, and using the standard expression regarding friction factors, I calculated a friction factor for your mixer for the recent dough batch to be 7 degrees F. That value applies only to the recent dough batch. It does not apply to your usual dough batches. The friction factor in that case will have a different value.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #177 on: November 23, 2009, 10:26:59 PM »
Peter,
I have been using frozen dough balls when I have dough left over.  I just let them on the bench and when they are thawed out, I use them.  So far I haven't had any problems unless it is more than one week I have the dough frozen.
I have a few customers that do buy the fresh dough and I tell them to use the dough within two days or either freeze it.  They have reported back to me that the dough is still good for them to use even when they froze it.
Will let you know how the dough works out next week.
Norma
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 06:30:17 AM by norma427 »
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Offline torontonian

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #178 on: November 26, 2009, 08:52:56 PM »
I was just reading through this thread. I liked the fact that Peter compared the results of the long cold fermentation process to those of using a natural starter. I've had some really good success with the NY Lehmann (best of the NY styles I've tried), and want to mix it up a bit and play a bit with long ferments, etc.

Peter - given so much time has passed in this thread, as well as so many experiments, would you suggest I just follow the original recipe/technique as written, or were there some key learnings made since 2006 that would be worth noting? I will be looking to scale the recipe up to 3x14" dough balls.

Appreciate your input.

-- Josh

Offline ThunderStik

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #179 on: November 26, 2009, 11:43:28 PM »
Norma, after seeing how low your finished dough temps were I agree with Pete in that you may not need to lower your yeast %.  Thats a farly low temp and will make a large difference in the end.
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