Author Topic: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method  (Read 88326 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #200 on: December 02, 2009, 11:08:13 AM »
This is off topic, but since you mentioned in this thread about trying to get your dough temperature down, did you ever try putting ice cubes in plastic bags or something similar and either tie  with twine or use a large rubber band around the mixing bowl to keep the temperature of your finished dough lower?  Just thought I would mention this while it is fresh in my mind.


Norma,

No, I have never tried that method. Using a refrigerated bowl, which is what you would be doing, is something that commercial frozen dough producers often do to make dough that is to be frozen, as I noted recently at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9121.msg84545.html#msg84545. The closest I ever came to doing what you suggested was when I made a dough where I used only crushed ice or ice cubes, that is, no water in liquid form. I discussed the results at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg17086.html#msg17086. See also Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg17097.html#msg17097. In fact, sometime when you can set aside some time just to read, you might read the entire thread.

Peter


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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #201 on: December 02, 2009, 11:19:05 AM »
Peter,
What I meant was do you think your finished dough temperature could go down lower with ice cubes or dry ice attached to the outside of your mixing bowl?  That is why I asked if you ever tried this method to get your finished dough temperature down.  I was only thinking about this because you live in a warmer climate.
Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #202 on: December 02, 2009, 11:31:05 AM »
I agree that the 8 day fermentation dough was close to over fermenting.  I noticed when opening the dough it felt like little honeycomb structures in the dough.  Was that what you are talking about when you said my gluten structure was weakened by the protease enzymes attacking the gluten structure? 
I added the picture of the deli case so you could see I kept the dough in the bottom right hand corner to keep it as cold as I could.
Yes, I can now see how the cold dough handled better than the warmed up dough. The first dough ball I tried just wanted to tear, so that is why I just tried it right out of the deli case.
I would like to try this experiment again.  I would like to try with adding IDY either later or at the end and still go for an 8 day fermentation to see what the results would be. Do you think I should lower the IDY any more at this point?
Let me know which you want me to try to get the best results.
I did really enjoy the taste of the crust.  It was much better than my one day fermentation. 


Norma,

Yes, the honeycomb characteristic that you mentioned is common with an overproofed dough. Also, the dough may feel a bit wet and clammy, which is caused by water in the dough being released from its bond after the prolonged fermentation period. I believe that the lighter crust color was also an additional effect of the overproofing.

I think I would try the late IDY addition method with an 8-day dough as your next experiment. If you look back at the posts on that subject in this thread, you will see how I used the IDY late in the dough making process. If using dry ADY is of any interest to you, the last time I used that method was with an 8-day Papa John's clone dough at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308. In that case, I simply added the dry ADY to the flour.

I meant to mention earlier the possibility of adding some sugar to your dough formulation but waited to see how you used the IDY. In all of my experiments with long-lived doughs in this thread, I did not add any sugar to the dough. In looking at your photos, I thought that adding some sugar would help provide more crust coloration. In retrospect, I believe that that made sense because of the way you made your dough with the IDY being used in the normal fashion. However, for your next experiment, I would not add any sugar to the dough. I would rather see the results before addressing that issue.

Peter

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #203 on: December 02, 2009, 11:37:14 AM »
What I meant was do you think your finished dough temperature could go down lower with ice cubes or dry ice attached to the outside of your mixing bowl?  That is why I asked if you ever tried this method to get your finished dough temperature down.  I was only thinking about this because you live in a warmer climate.

Norma,

I am sure that method would help. However, I discovered that if I freeze everything, including the flour, yeast, water (a thin layer of ice in the measuring cup), the mixer bowl and the flat beater attachment and the C-hook, I can get the finished dough temperature down to about 60-62 degrees F. That is even lower than the 65 degree F finished dough temperature that commercial producers of frozen dough balls strive for. So, I think I should be able to hit that target or come close to it even when it is warm here in Texas.

Peter

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #204 on: December 02, 2009, 11:50:08 AM »
Peter,
I will add the IDY last in this experiment and not do anything else differently.
Thanks for you observations.
Norma
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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #205 on: December 02, 2009, 10:34:53 PM »
Norma, I would add the IDY towards the tail end of your knead. After that I would only knead long enough to finish your regular knead session and only long enough to get good dispersion.
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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #206 on: December 03, 2009, 06:18:53 AM »
ThunderStik,
Thank you for your suggestions.  I plan on adding the IDY as the last ingredient and making sure the IDY is properly dispersed.  I am going to use the poppy seed trick to see if I can tell how much the dough has fermented.  I also plan on using Glad containers to help me understand the poppy seed trick.
Thanks,
Norma
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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #207 on: December 04, 2009, 06:03:37 AM »
Peter,
Since I want to try the “poppy seed trick” again, I purchased some Glad containers and they are 5.2 cups. I only purchased four because I want to try 5 dough balls like I did before and just put  four dough balls in the Glad containers and one dough in my regular plastic bag to see if there is any difference in how the dough behaves.  Are the 5.2 cups containers  big enough for my dough to expand? 
You had mentioned in other posts that you drill a hole in the lid of the containers.  What diameter drill bit did you use?  Is that something you would recommend me doing to get my best results?
The only other difference I will make in my dough formula is to add the IDY at the end of my mixing and only incorporate enough so it is dispersed uniformly.
Norma
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Offline Matthew

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #208 on: December 04, 2009, 06:23:04 AM »


You had mentioned in other posts that you drill a hole in the lid of the containers.  What diameter drill bit did you use?  Is that something you would recommend me doing to get my best results?

Norma

Hi Norma,
You can make the hole using a small nail & a hammer.  The reason for the hole is for the gasses to escape, without it, the lid may pop off.

Matt

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #209 on: December 04, 2009, 06:51:52 AM »
Matt.
Thank you for your advise.  I did know the hole was for gasses to escape, but didn't know if the size of the hole mattered. 
Thank you for answering my question.
Norma
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Offline Matthew

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #210 on: December 04, 2009, 06:58:43 AM »
Matt.
Thank you for your advise.  I did know the hole was for gasses to escape, but didn't know if the size of the hole mattered. 
Thank you for answering my question.
Norma

No problem Norma.  The smaller the hole the better.

Matt

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #211 on: December 04, 2009, 10:15:20 AM »
Since I want to try the “poppy seed trick” again, I purchased some Glad containers and they are 5.2 cups. I only purchased four because I want to try 5 dough balls like I did before and just put  four dough balls in the Glad containers and one dough in my regular plastic bag to see if there is any difference in how the dough behaves.  Are the 5.2 cups containers  big enough for my dough to expand? 
You had mentioned in other posts that you drill a hole in the lid of the containers.  What diameter drill bit did you use?  Is that something you would recommend me doing to get my best results?

Norma,

I think your Glad containers are adequate to the task. With the small amount of yeast you are using, coupled with the cold fermentation, you aren't likely to see such major expansion of the dough that it is likely to blow the cover off.

With respect to the size of the holes in the lids of my containers, I eyeballed one of the lids this morning and I would say that I used a 1/16" drillbit. However, I believe that the lids of your Glad containers are quite thin and flexible, whereas my lids are fairly thick and rigid. So, I would do as Matt suggests and just use a hammer and nail.

Peter

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #212 on: December 04, 2009, 01:44:06 PM »
My dough finished the 7 day cold ferment. It hasn't risen at all. I left it out now on the counter for about an hour. I opened the lid and smelled the dough. It smells like really strong whole wheat (the best way I can describe it). The dough is gummy to the touch.

Has it gone off? I'm weary to use it.

-- Josh

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #213 on: December 04, 2009, 02:10:18 PM »
Josh,

It's up to you, but I would let the dough warm up some more, especially if it is cool where you are in Canada. Even when a dough does not appear to have risen during cold fermentation, it should expand more noticeably when brought to room temperature long enough, and it should become softer to the touch. I usually remove the dough ball from its container when I bring the dough out to room temperature and cover it with a sheet of plastic wrap so that it doesn't dry out at the exposed surfaces. If the dough ball is easy to open up to form into a skin when you decide to use it, that is usually an indication that the dough is OK, at least in my experience.

Peter

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #214 on: December 04, 2009, 03:09:26 PM »
Josh,

I forgot to mention in my last post that when I remove the dough ball from its container to warm up, I dust it with bench flour before covering it with the plastic wrap. That helps absorb some of the surface moisture and keeps the dough from sticking to my work surface.

Peter

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #215 on: December 04, 2009, 03:21:21 PM »
Josh,

I forgot to mention in my last post that when I remove the dough ball from its container to warm up, I dust it with bench flour before covering it with the plastic wrap. That helps absorb some of the surface moisture and keeps the dough from sticking to my work surface.

Peter

Peter,
          This is funny as I was thinking about how other people do this last night, because ya just never know. I do it completely different.

I pull the balls out of their containers and put them on a well oiled surface to come up to room temp and cover them with the same plastic that was covering them in their containers (the plastic is oiled befor fermentation).

When its time to work the dough I only flour my hands a bit, just enough that the dough does not stick to them. I want to minimize the un-fermented flour.

I wonder if that could have something to do with the tiny bubbles?
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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #216 on: December 04, 2009, 03:33:06 PM »
I wonder if that could have something to do with the tiny bubbles?

Bill,

I tend to think not. Otherwise, I think you would find blistering in crusts made from doughs fermented for a couple or hours or so (at room temperature). I have never seen them in such cases, even with the dough balls being coated with oil and using bench flour. There may be many reasons for the small blisters forming, but I believe that the most common explanation is long fermentation times, whether at ambient temperature of under cold fermentation. At least that has been my experience making just about all kinds of doughs under many different conditions.

To test your thesis, you can make a test emergency dough and use your oiled surface/floured hands to see if you can create the blistering effect.

Peter

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #217 on: December 04, 2009, 03:34:38 PM »
Well, the containers have been sitting out now for four hours. Zero rise. There are some gasses being released, as pressure seemed about to pop the lids off. The whole wheat aroma is almost overpowering.

Ideas? I reread the recipe a couple of times, and I'm sure I got it right.

-- Josh

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #218 on: December 04, 2009, 03:43:33 PM »
Josh,

The only way to get "zero" rise at this point would be because the yeast is dead. I would try opening up one of the dough balls to see if you can make a functional skin out of it. After four hours, I would think that the dough should be warm enough to work with.

Doughs that have fermented for long periods can have a variety of aromas. I don't personally recall detecting a whole wheat aroma, or at least it did not register with me as such.

Peter

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #219 on: December 04, 2009, 03:46:23 PM »
Josh,
Here is a dough I had left in the deli case for 7 days and it look gray and not full of life in any way.  I proceeded to use it and it turned out okay.  Does you dough look anything like this?  My finished dough temperature of that dough was 80 degrees F, the week before. It did smell strong.

Look at reply 54 under this

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9615.msg84235.html#msg84235

Norma
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