New KitchenAid Dough Making Method

[SemperFi]

The round shape of the dough is intentional: I want it to cool down more slowly and to ferment more slowly than if it were flattened into a disk. Using a metal container also plays into that objective.

Peter,

Is this a typo?  I thought that a metal container increased the cooling down effect.  I understand the slower ferment, but "slower to cool"?  I believed in extended ferments, we want to facilitate the chill speed. Just wondering.  I think that I found my error also.  Possibly the plastic insulated the warmth enough to kick start the yeast to the extent that it was on autopilot for the rise.  And I have to ask November, we all are aware that glass is a better insulator than plastic, plastic more so than metal.  Any actual #'s or real temps as to time that the same products take to cool down?  If it is in fact the insulating factor, can I assume if I drop the finished knead temp a few more degrees, that I will in fact compensate for the insulation, or will the reaction still warm up the dough once the lid is placed on?  Adam

[November]

And I have to ask November, we all are aware that glass is a better insulator than plastic, plastic more so than metal.  Any actual #'s or real temps as to time that the same products take to cool down?

Glass is not a better insulator than plastic.  Low-density polymers, as can be see in the following link, have an average thermal conductivity of 0.195 W·m^-1·K^-1, while glass averages 1.0825 W·m^-1·K^-1, or about five times more thermally conductive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_conductivities

The time it takes to heat up or cool down depends on two factors: thermal conductivity and heat capacity.  The following page has a list of specific heat capacities.  (In the absence of plastic on a thermal property listing, wood is an approximate analogue.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_heat_capacity

- red.november

[Pete-zza]

Adam,

Yes, I misstated it. Sorry about that. I want the dough initially to cool down faster, and using the metal container seems to help do that. I sometimes even put the metal container into the refrigerator to pre-cool it before I put the dough ball into it. If the finished dough temperature turns out a bit higher than you wanted, you can even put the container with the dough in the freezer for a while. I have done that a few times and found that I could keep the container with the dough in the freezer for a half hour without incident.

I will have to try flattening the dough ball some time within the container to see how that affects the final results. I usually do that when I put the dough into a freezer bag, particularly if refrigerator space is limited, and the combination seems to work pretty well to cool the dough down.

I know that November has commented before about using metal containers to store dough, and that he prefers plastic, possibly because of the increased likelihood of thermal shock to the dough when using metal. One advantage to using plastic, of course, is that it is transparent or translucent and you can see what is happening to the dough without having to open the container to look.

Peter

[November]

I know that November has commented before about using metal containers to store dough, and that he prefers plastic, possibly because of the increased likelihood of thermal shock to the dough when using metal.

Peter, that is a correct assessment.

I am soon going to use a glass bowl with a stainless steel lid in a similar manner to the illustration I provided a while back.  I think glass is a wonderful compromise between transparent functionality and good thermal conductance.  What's important to note about Peter's metal container approach, is that there is more to it than rapid initial cooling.  One must also consider keeping the dough cool as the yeast will in fact produce heat as a byproduct of metabolism.  One should choose a container based on how long one plans to keep the dough refrigerated.  The longer the cold fermentation, the better the container should conduct heat so as to pump the heat generated within the dough out as quickly as possible.

Plastic has always served me because I never keep dough in the refrigerator longer than 48 hours, and even then, I only cold ferment during a blue lunar eclipse so it's not a big deal anyway.  Soon I will have a digitally temperature controlled environment just for proofing dough.  My aim with this device will be to modify the electronics so that it can interface a computer through USB, and I can program it with a cooling and warming schedule that looks something like this:

1) Hold at room temperature for 30 minutes
2) Gradually decrease temperature to 50 F within 30 minutes
3) Hold at 50 F for 16 hours
4) Gradually increase temperature to 86 F within 2 hours
5) Make a really loud and annoying sound

That way I don't have to be bothered with taking steps to manually care for the dough, in and out, back and forth.

- red.november

[SemperFi]

Well Peter,

Thar she blows!  Unfortunately overnight the lid popped off my container, and the dough grew an unsightly crust.  Now true, I probably could have cut the crust off and still used it, but this was at 4:30am, and I had no coffee in me.  Besides the unlidded dough picked up my Teriyaki Chicken that I BBQ'd the day prior.  I did play with a piece though, and was it heaven!  Super elastic, unbelievable stretching capability!!!!!  I never had a dough act like this before.  So, on Wednesday, I plan to remake this dough with slight modifications:  using plastic wrap under the lid as a safeguard from crusting, trying to lower the overall temperature a few more degrees, flashing it in the freezer for 30 minutes, the addition of a poolish (10%), and lowering the yeast amount by a tenth of a percent to .3%.  Hopefully I will have some results for you come Friday night.  Adam

[Pete-zza]

Adam,

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I recently made two new test dough balls, one with vinegar and one without. The first photo below shows both dough balls at almost exactly 2 days of cold fermentation. The dough ball on the left is the one with the vinegar. Both dough balls are of the same weight (15.40 ounces) and are otherwise as close to each other as I could make them in a nonscientific home kitchen environment. The second photo is of the dough without the vinegar. I showed this photo to more accurately depict the spacing around the dough ball. As you can see, the dough balls are not exhibiting a tendency to "blow". All's quiet on the Texas front, at least for the time being.

Peter

[SemperFi]

Well Peter,

Your pics do ease one of my worries.  My dough ball also had a pebbled texture, and I thought that I had done something wrong.  This perception was due to having made, and looked at Varasano's pics...his dough is silky smooth looking.  After searching my notes, I might lower the yeast further...another .1% to .2% since my "poolish/preferment/biga?" is exhibiting nice bubbles and a nice aroma, so it should pull up the yeast percentage to what I desire.  Science question....container size.  Will a larger container width promote a quicker rise?  Since the dough will spread, there is less "dough pressure/weight?" or downward pressure to slow rise.  Will a more narrow container prohibit or decrease a rise...more dough weight?  In turn, when I make a consomme, I use a tall narrow pot, this slows evaporation and increases the flavor...water percolates through the flavor raft longer, thus increasing flavor.  So will the gas bubble increase the flavor of the dough if it has to travel longer in the dough to reach the surface?  Adam

[Pete-zza]

Adam,

One of the things you have to always keep in mind is that a basic, low-level KitchenAid mixer is not a particularly good machine in my opinion to knead pizza dough. It would be possible to knead the dough longer and reduce the "pebbling" effect but then you may end up with an overkneaded dough. I have noticed in any event that the pebbling tends to diminish as the dough ferments.

Jeff's dough will always look better than what I can make with my machine. He is using a DLX, which does a much better job kneading dough than my mixer. The whole objective of this thread is predicated on trying to coax better performance out of my KitchenAid machine. The thread has little value to those who have DLXs, Santos mixers, or even the KitchenAid mixers with the spiral hook.

Peter

[SemperFi]

I have noticed in any event that the pebbling tends to diminish as the dough ferments.

I also noticed that the pebbling effect did diminish.  Adam

[Pete-zza]

Adam,

I just remembered that I didn't address your questions on the size and shape of the container. I have wondered the same things but don't know the answers. In my case, I just used some empty fruitcake pans (no cruel jokes, please ) that I had on hand. They are 7" in diameter, which is a bit less than commercial dough retarding and proofing pans, such as shown here: http://www.foodservicedirect.com/index.cfm/S/311/N/1647/Dough_Retarding_and_Proofing_Pans.htm. Since commercial proofing/retarding pans are metal, that was perhaps one of the reasons why I didn't think of things like thermal shock when I first started using my empty fruitcake tins.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

A few posts ago, at Reply 105 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg41569.html#msg41569), I posted photos of a couple of test dough balls that I had prepared to see if I could recreate the phenomenon of spotting of the doughs after several days of fermentation and also to see whether the use of vinegar would prevent the spotting. The dough balls were prepared along the lines discussed at Reply 57 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40092.html#msg40092) except that for the two test doughs I used a lower hydration, around 62%, and water that was around 33-34 degrees F. Otherwise, the two dough formulations were very similar. The basic dough making procedures were essentially identical to those described in Reply 57.

Yesterday, 15 days after making the two dough balls, I could not observe significant spotting of the two dough balls. There was very slight spotting of the dough ball without the vinegar but the dough ball with the vinegar had noticeably more spotting, although nowhere as near pronounced as I have experienced before with the long-lived dough balls made using the new KitchenAid dough making method. I have posted photos below of the two dough balls although the differences between them may not be entirely visible (the first photo is of the dough ball without the vinegar and the second photo is of the dough ball with the vinegar). The greater degree of spotting with the dough ball using the vinegar clearly puts in doubt whether using vinegar is a preventive for spotting. Since I concluded that the purpose of the test was essentially over, I decided to make a pizza with the dough without the vinegar to see how it would perform. I am keeping the other dough ball with the vinegar in the refrigerator for a few more days, at which time I plan to use it to make another pizza. I will be most interested in whether the vinegar will be detectable in the finished crust.

I might add that there was some bubbling at the surfaces of the two dough balls during their fermentation. A couple of dime-sized bubbles formed after about three days at the upper surface of the dough ball with the vinegar, and a similar bubble formed at the upper surface of the dough ball without the vinegar after about 5 days. However, since the dough balls were still very firm to the touch, even though flattened, I simply pinched the bubbles to allow the gas to escape. There was no need for suturing. In fact, the pinched surfaces healed after a few more days and were no longer as readily detectable. The fact that both dough balls went on to last many more days is evidence that the occurrence of bubbling is not necessarily a sign that the dough has overfermented and must be promptly used. The fact that the dough balls (flattened) were still firm appears to be the more important condition. Even after 15 days, the doughs were still firm.

I prepared and baked the pizza along the same lines as discussed in Reply 57. I used a different cheese this time (a blend of Grande whole-milk mozzarella cheese and Provolone cheese) and I added some slices of green pepper and omitted the mushrooms, but otherwise the pizza was prepared as I did the pizza described in Reply 57. The dough was allowed to warm up to around 63 degrees F prior to handling. It was fairly extensible but no more so than is typical of the many Lehmann doughs I have made. The dough was stretched out to 14”.

I thought the finished pizza was excellent. It had decent coloration of the upper crust, and the rim, although modest in size, was chewy and crispy, with a lot of “tooth” and with a profusion of small blisters. The crumb had a texture and stretchiness similar to those I have achieved before using natural starters. And the crust flavors were there in great abundance, along with a detectable sweetness even though no sugar was added to the dough. My overall perception is that the crust had flavor and texture characteristics that I have found before in high quality artisanal breads, but rarely in pizza crusts, quite possibly because most doughs are not held for more than a few days. The last two photos show the finished pizza and a typical slice.

Peter

[SemperFi]

Peter,

Unbelievable experiment.  I wonder how your second pizza will taste also, and just how close to a 30 day window you might get.  I do have a question about your pepper slices though.  When I do it, I have to put them on top of all other toppings to ensure that I won't have an abundance of trapped moisture.  Yet, I can see that you put yours under the cheese, and i don't see any evidence of trapped moisture or waterlogging.  I do slice them thin, but the trouble remains.  Any thoughts?  Adam

[Pete-zza]

Adam,

I will perhaps take it a day at a time with the second dough (the one with the vinegar), and use it if and when it looks like it is at the end of the line. I wasn't planning to go for 30 days, but now that you mentioned it, maybe I will go longer than I was planning.

As for the peppers, I sliced them in rings, which I prefer because I think it creates a more "gourmet" appearance than a diced version, which many of the chains use. To reduce the water content, I put the pepper slices on a paper towel and microwaved them for about 30 seconds and then dried the peppers with the paper towel. You do lose some of the nice green color when microwaving but that’s the tradeoff I was willing to accept to reduce the moisture content on the pizza. In dressing the pizza, after putting on the sauce I put a first (thin) layer of cheese, then the peppers, and a final layer of cheese. I usually sauté veggies like peppers, onions and mushrooms (although I also like raw mushrooms on pizzas), but the ideas for pre-processing veggies come from trolling the PMQ Think Tank and reading things like these posts: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=1954&highlight=peppers and
http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=2071&highlight=peppers.

Peter

[Bryan S]

I just about always include some oil in my doughs and on the outer surfaces so it came to me as a big surprise to find that the all-purpose dough I made the other day and reported on earlier in this thread was perhaps the best, or one of the best, doughs I have ever made in terms of having an almost perfect balance between elasticity and extensibility. And that dough had no oil in it at all, and just a small amount on the outer surface. I might have been happy to give credit to the new dough making method I have been using and writing about, but are there other factors besides oil that might have been involved? The formulation included only flour, water (65%), salt (1%) and yeast (0.25% IDY). The dough did ferment at room temperature for a few hours before degassing and placing it in the refrigerator, but otherwise the dough preparation was fairly standard (salt dissolved in water, flour and IDY added, etc.)

Peter

Peter, I made a recent batch of dough without oil in the dough, just on the outside to keep it from sticking to the bowl. As you, I also found that the dough without oil was very easy to work with, and it stayed a even thickness when stretching unlike oil dough which in my experience has a tendency to get very thin in spots. This dough reminded me of the dough i used to make pizzas at the shop i worked at almost 30 years ago. I had made 2 dough balls and used one at the 5 day mark. The other one is still in the fridge and is 7 days old today. I make all my dough the same way. I put room temp spring water in the KA bowl, add sugar (if using some) salt, and IDY. I then sift the flour and after letting the yeast rehydrate for 5 min (i know it's not necessary with IDY but i do it any way because of my Home Brewing habits) i add the flour and mix with the spiral dough hook on speed 2 just till it comes together. I then let it sit for 15 min and then add oil (if using it) do a final knead on speed 2 for 3-4 min. I then weigh out the dough balls to 20 oz hand knead in to a smooth ball, oil and place in a gladeware round container and in to the beer fridge (34-36 degrees) it goes for the cold ferment. I get very little rise in the fridge with my dough. This was my best tasting crust so far and i think the one that's still in the fridge will be even better yet. Peter, thanks for all your work you do here.   Here's my recipe for the no oil dough.

Flour (100%) 24.56 oz
Water (62%) 15.22 oz
IDY (0.33%) 0.76 tsp.
Salt (2%) 2.5 tsp.

[Pete-zza]

Bryan,

The dough formulation you quoted in your post essentially came from Evelyne Slomon based on things she said on another thread about the way that classic NY style doughs used to be made by the old masters at Totonno’s, Lombardi’s and John’s when all-purpose flour was the most common flour of choice, along with bread flour and before high-gluten flours became more readily available.  She also recommends that IDY used to make small amounts of dough at home be rehydrated in water, so what you are doing is consistent with her recommendation. I normally don’t do that myself because I am trying to prolong the life of the dough by adding the IDY at the end of the dough making process, and for this I want the IDY to be dry. I also don’t use an autolyse or autolyse-like rest period because one of my goals was to keep the total dough preparation process once the water goes into the bowl to about 10-12 minutes. I may add a little bit of delay when I switch from whisk to flat beater to C-hook, so I may be getting a little bit of rest also, but it is still within the 10-12 minute timeframe. As for oil in the dough, I like it and miss it when it is left out.

Based on what you gave as your current dough formula, and assuming that you are using sea salt, I get the following from the Lehmann dough calculator at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html, for two dough balls, which I assume are for 16” pizzas (thickness factor = 0.10044):

Flour (100%): Water (61.9797%): IDY (0.32878%): Salt (2.13126%): Total (164.43974%): Single Ball:

696.24 g  |  24.56 oz | 1.53 lbs 431.53 g  |  15.22 oz | 0.95 lbs 2.29 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp 14.84 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.66 tsp | 0.89 tbsp 1144.89 g | 40.38 oz | 2.52 lbs | TF = N/A 572.45 g | 20.19 oz | 1.26 lbs

Peter

Edit: Added thickness factor

[Bryan S]

Peter, yes 16" pies, sea salt and i used 50/50 mix of Harvest King and KABF. I was surprised that the lack of oil produced such different results when working the dough. I would have thought the opposite, and that was my main reason for posting. I know you like to have all the info on ones recipe and process so that's why i posted the info. I did not mean to hijack or butt in to this thread. 

[Pete-zza]

Bryan,

Your post was not out of line. One of the things I have tried to do with the new KitchenAid dough method is to apply it to different dough formulations, no matter the ingredients. One of the dough formulations was the oil-less NY style dough with respect to which you offered your comments but I have also used it for the basic Lehmann dough formulation, a Little Caesar's clone dough and a Sbarro's clone dough. In due time, I plan to use the method with a natural starter and 00 flours. But what is really behind the thread is the exploration of concepts and principles, such as using sifted flour (which you have been doing), when to add ingredients like yeast and oil and in what overall sequence, how to improve the hydration of flour, the effects of water temperature, dough bubbles and spotting phenomena, suitable containers to store dough, and so on. Already, I feel that I have learned a lot that I didn’t know or understand before and maybe will be able to make better pizza doughs because of it and also to modify and improve existing formulations. 

BTW, as you will note, I edited my last post to indicate the thickness factor for your dough formula for the benefit of those who may want to try out your recipe and prefer to work with that method in using the Lehmann dough calculator.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

In Reply 110 in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42160.html#msg42160, I presented a status report on two test doughs that I had made to see if I could recreate the spotting phenomenon that I had experienced in earlier doughs using the new KitchenAid method described in this thread. One of the dough balls included vinegar which, according to John Correll in his tome, Encyclopizza, eliminates or delays spotting (which he says is due to the harmless oxidation of bran specks in the dough). The second dough ball was essentially identical to the first dough ball but included no vinegar. When I did not detect any significant spotting after both dough balls were 15 days old, I ended the test as to the dough ball without the vinegar. I decided at that time to make a pizza out of that dough (as reported in the above post), and to let the dough with the vinegar develop more age and to monitor whether any spotting would occur as it further aged.

Yesterday, after 23 days, I decided to use the “vinegar” dough even though it did not show any outward signs of imminent decline, like substantial softening of the dough, excessive wetness, or the appearance of bubbles at the outer surface. As shown in the first photo below, there was an increase in spotting in the “vinegar” dough between days 15 and 23, but it was still not at the level that I had experienced with much younger doughs.

I was certainly curious to know what the crust made from the “vinegar” dough would taste like after 23 days of cold fermentation. My initial observations were that the dough was still firm to the touch, and I detected the odors of fermentation as soon as I opened the metal container in which the dough was stored. Also, the bottom of the dough that was in direct contact with the metal bottom of the container had a profusion of small holes throughout the entire bottom surface that created a porous overall effect that was unlike anything I had seen before. Yet, after further flattening the dough and dusting top and bottom with bench flour, I was still able to shape and stretch the dough out to its final size of 14”. The dough was quite extensible but I had no problem handling it, and it did not exhibit any tendency to want to stick to the peel.

The dough skin was dressed with a standard 6-in-1 pizza sauce, a Grande whole-milk mozzarella/Provolone shredded cheese blend, sautéed and raw sliced mushrooms, sautéed green pepper slices, and pepperoni slices. The pizza was baked for about 6 minutes on a pizza stone (at the bottom oven rack position) that had been preheated for about an hour at about 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was then moved to the second-from-the-top oven rack position for an additional 1-2 minutes to get additional top crust browning and to help finish cooking the toppings, especially the vegetable toppings.

The second and third photos below show the finished pizza. The top crust had decent browning even though no sugar had been added to the dough. So, even after 23 days, there was adequate residual sugar in the dough to support crust browning. Unlike past doughs, however, I did not detect sweetness in the crust. By contrast, the 15-day crust still had sweetness in the crust, although it too was less than I have achieved with younger doughs up to about 8 days of cold fermentation. There was also good oven spring and a normal rim size, a “stretchy” crumb reminiscent of a sourdough crumb, and the pizza had a distinctive overall artisanal appearance with a profusion of small blisters in the rim. The biggest difference between the crust of this pizza and the last one I made after 15 days was in the flavor of the crust. It was potent and quite distinctive. Whether it was the vinegar or copious amounts of flavor-contributing byproducts of fermentation, or a combination of both, is hard to say since I had never before made a pizza dough using vinegar and this was the first 23-day old dough I have ever made and used.

In assessing the results, it seems clear that November was correct to question the efficacy of vinegar in the dough to prevent or delay spotting. Maybe the vinegar did have the effect of slowing down the fermentation, as noted by John Correll, but after 23 days it was hard to tell whether the vinegar contributed to or inhibited the coloration of the crust. The crust did appear to be a bit lighter than the last one but it is possible that there was less residual sugar at this point to separately contribute to crust coloration. Also, I had more toppings on the pizza this time (substantially more than I normally use) and that may have affected the bake and the final top crust coloration.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

In the latest of my experiments to explore the dough spotting phenomenon, I decided to make a dough to test the effects of oxygen, or lack thereof to be more precise, on a dough during fermentation. As previously noted, John Correll stated that the cause of spotting is the oxidation of the bran flakes in the dough. So, I wondered what would happen if a dough were allowed to ferment in the absence of oxygen (air), that is, in an anaerobic environment.

To test out this concept, I used my FoodSaver unit to seal a dough (a basic Lehmann dough for a 12” pizza) in a pouch and to put the dough so entombed in the refrigerator for several days. While I did not take a photo of the dough outside of the pouch, the dough that went into the pouch before the vacuum and sealing operations was round, and the ensuing evacuation of the air caused the dough ball to flatten somewhat. Over the course of the next several days, not much happened to the dough. This led me to believe that perhaps the dough wouldn’t be able to break out of its straitjacket. But after about Day 6, the dough started to flatten and push outwardly in a lateral direction, and the upper surface started to open up and develop large fissures as it tried to expand outwardly. By contrast, the bottom of the dough was quite normal, with only very very small bubbles.

The outward expansion and opening up of the upper surface of the dough continued gradually until Day 15, when I decided to end the experiment. By this time, the dough has pretty much expanded laterally to fill up a good part of the space in the pouch, and I could see a volume of gas trapped in one corner. I also saw for the first time moisture that condensed on the inner top surface of the pouch. The first two photos show the dough at this juncture, in a top view and a side view. There was no spotting of the dough whatsoever. The color of the dough was perfectly normal—the same as when I put the dough in the bag to be sealed. This leads me to believe that oxygen (air) may be a material contributing factor in the dough spotting phenomenon.

I cut the pouch to examine the dough more carefully. The third photo shows the dough resting on the bottom of the pouch. As soon as I cut the pouch, I got a good whiff of the volatile byproducts of fermentation. I carefully removed the dough and placed it on a floured work surface. Rather than throwing the dough away, I decided to make a pizza out of it, mainly to satisfy my curiosity. I dusted both sides with flour--the least I could get away with--but I could see that it was possible to lift and handle and stretch the dough at this point even though it was quite extensible. I decided to let the dough warm up at room temperature in the usual fashion for about an hour and a half. By that time, the dough was even more extensible and not amenable to hand stretching off of the counter. So I simply stretched it out on my floured peel and dressed it. The pizza so dressed (with 6-in-1 sauce, a shredded blend of Grande mozzarella/Provolone cheeses, and pepperoni slices) was baked on a pizza stone (at the lowest oven rack position) that had been preheated to around 500-550 degrees F for about an hour. After about 6 minutes, I moved the pizza to the second-from-the-top oven rack position and baked the pizza for about a minute and a half more to get increased top crust browning.

The pizza was actually quite tasty. It was very chewy, with not a great deal of oven spring, and it was very crispy in the thin parts of the rim. And it had decent crust coloring. It was not up to par with the other pizzas based on 15-days doughs (and less) that I have made and described in this thread, so I would not recommend it. However, it would be interesting to see how an anaerobic dough would perform at say, 6-10 days.

Peter

[DanCole42]

Peter-
What would be the best time to freeze a long-fermenting dough?

1) Immediately after kneading?
2) At some point during the cold ferment?
3) After the cold ferment is done (i.e. the time you would ordinarily remove the dough for shaping and cooking)?
4) After shaping?
5) After topping?
6) After a quick-cook in the oven, dough only?
7) After a quick-cook in the oven, dough with topping?
After everything has been fully cooked. Essentially freezing the leftovers?

I would GUESS #3 makes the most sense, especially since I intend to give the dough as a gift to a fellow pizza lover who would rather top and cook the dough himself.