Author Topic: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method  (Read 92089 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #180 on: November 27, 2009, 12:22:50 AM »
ThunderStik,
We will see what happens this week.  On Tuesdays my deli case is opened a shut quite a lot.  I can't monitor what the temperature is all day.  Hopefully that doesn't effect the dough too much. The dough was made on Monday and I plan on using it this Tuesday.  The dough didn't look like it did anything by Tuesday.
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #181 on: November 27, 2009, 11:21:33 AM »
I was just reading through this thread. I liked the fact that Peter compared the results of the long cold fermentation process to those of using a natural starter. I've had some really good success with the NY Lehmann (best of the NY styles I've tried), and want to mix it up a bit and play a bit with long ferments, etc.

Peter - given so much time has passed in this thread, as well as so many experiments, would you suggest I just follow the original recipe/technique as written, or were there some key learnings made since 2006 that would be worth noting? I will be looking to scale the recipe up to 3x14" dough balls.

Josh,

I went back and re-read the first few posts in this thread and there weren't any material changes in what I originally wrote there. But, there were a few minor changes. Specifically, I discovered that there was no need to sift the flour at least twice (once is enough) and I found that I did not need to coat the agitators (whisk, flat beater, C-hook) with oil. Later, when I decided that I wanted to extend the window of usability of the dough even further, I added the yeast (IDY) even later in the dough making process. Also, when I tried lower hydration doughs than what I used in the opening post in this thread (65%), I found that I had to use a higher mixer speed than the stir speed. This was just a common sense change. I'm sure there were other such mid-course corrections.

I don't want to leave you or anyone else with the impression that the methods described in this thread will produce results identical to what you would get using a natural starter/preferment. However, the results I achieved, in terms of crust flavor, aroma and texture, were the closest that I have able to achieve to using a natural starter/preferment. On a scale, I would put a natural starter/preferment first, then the results using the methods described in this thread, especially the really geriatric doughs that I made. Next on the scale, I would put preferments using commercial yeast. Maybe next would be doughs fermented for very long periods (up to 24 hours) entirely at room temperature (this means using miniscule amounts of yeast).

Good luck. I hope you will let us know how things turn out. I am especially anxious to see how Norma's experiment turns out.

Peter

Offline torontonian

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #182 on: November 27, 2009, 02:03:05 PM »
Thanks Peter.

I just made 3x 14" dough balls per the original specification.

My finished dough temperature was 73 degrees. These are now in the fridge for the next week.

I noticed in your original photo set a pic of the dough after 7 days. It looked like there are little black dots in the dough. Is this something I should expect to see? One thing I am worried about though letting these ferment for a week is the fact that my temperature may not be consistent (kids in and out of the fridge). How would I know if my dough has reached a fermentation max before 7 days are up?

Cheers,
Josh

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #183 on: November 27, 2009, 02:52:19 PM »
I noticed in your original photo set a pic of the dough after 7 days. It looked like there are little black dots in the dough. Is this something I should expect to see? One thing I am worried about though letting these ferment for a week is the fact that my temperature may not be consistent (kids in and out of the fridge). How would I know if my dough has reached a fermentation max before 7 days are up?

Josh,

I devoted several posts to the matter of the spotting of the dough. If you scan the posts, you will see several examples of that spotting, much of which looks quite ominous. However, the spotting did not affect the final results. In my experiments, I found that the only flour that exhibited the spotting, at least to a degree noticeable to the naked eye, was the high-gluten flour, in my case, the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. The spotting appeared primarily on the top surface of the dough, not on the bottom (or sides, if I recall correctly).

There is no hard and fast rule or indicator of overfermentation of the dough. There were times where I thought my dough had overfermented, or was on the verge of such, when bubbles appeared on the outer surface of the dough. If the dough was otherwise firm to the touch when I pressed my finger into the dough, I took that to mean that the dough was not overfermented and I usually pinched the bubbles shut, with no ill effects. Overfermented doughs tend to be soft and billowy and puffy, not firm. Also, if there is a great abundance of bubbles at the bottom and sides of the storage container, such as a glass bowl, that is also a pretty reliable indicator of overproofing/overfermentation. In my case, I used metal storage containers and hence could not see the bubbles as I would in a clear glass or plastic bowl.

In my experience, the openings and closings of the refrigerator dough, particularly if excessive, can have an effect on the temperature of the dough being stored. I have particularly noted this effect when I have made doughs before going away for long trips during which time the refrigerator door remained closed for the entire time. Upon my return, the doughs had not expanded to the same degree as when I was at home. The loading of the refrigerator can also have an effect on the dough's temperature. By loading, I mean the nature and the number of items that are in the refrigerator at any given time. For example, if you go to the supermarket and buy a lot of items and place them into the refrigerator to get them cool, that will affect the temperature of the dough. Conversely, if items are removed from the refrigerator and not replaced, that loading effect can cause the stored dough to become even cooler. What I do these days is to use the poppy seed method to monitor the expansion of my doughs. If the dough doubles in volume based on using the poppy seeds measurement, I might take that as a sign that it is perhaps a safe time to use the dough. Or, I just monitor the dough more frequently.

Peter

Offline torontonian

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #184 on: November 27, 2009, 02:56:08 PM »
Thanks Peter, that's useful. I will monitor the dough as you suggested.

Sorry but I have another question... I usually use EVOO when a dough recipe calls for oil. I noticed I was out so I replaced it with vegetable oil. While searching to see if this was a valid substitution, I noticed on the dough calculator that it says EVOO is not recommended.

Am I ok with the vegetable oil? What's the issue with EVOO?

Thx,
Josh

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #185 on: November 27, 2009, 03:15:04 PM »
Josh,
I was reading about your experiment and am interested in seeing how it turn out.  Good to see you are trying a long ferment, also.
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #186 on: November 27, 2009, 03:25:11 PM »
Sorry but I have another question... I usually use EVOO when a dough recipe calls for oil. I noticed I was out so I replaced it with vegetable oil. While searching to see if this was a valid substitution, I noticed on the dough calculator that it says EVOO is not recommended.

Am I ok with the vegetable oil? What's the issue with EVOO?

Josh,

No problem. Ask away.

Vegetable oil is fine. Actually, olive oil, and especially extra-virgin olive oil, may well be the best oil to use in a quality pizza dough because of its flavor contribution. However, in practice, it is perhaps the least used (by professionals) of the various types of oil. Tom Lehmann typically recommends using olive oil in the dough (usually on the low side for a NY style dough) but he often suggests that it be pomace olive oil, which costs much less than a high quality olive oil and consumers are very unlikely to notice the difference (I once suggested that to a pizza operator and he reported back, with glee, that his customers could not tell that anything had changed after he made the switch). Quite often, especially where cost is an important factor, Tom recommends a blend of olive oil and canola oil, with the bulk of the blend being canola oil. Tom also recommends that the oil used to wipe dough balls be a vegetable oil, which is usually soybean oil. That is cheaper than using a good olive oil. I have used both olive oil and soybean oil in my pizza doughs, including the doughs reported on in this thread, and, to be honest, I could not tell the difference. At around 1%, it is perhaps too much on the low side to have the flavors jump out at me.

Peter


Offline torontonian

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #187 on: November 27, 2009, 05:21:09 PM »
Got it. Thanks.

I will report back on this one in about a week!  ;D

Josh

Offline torontonian

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #188 on: November 30, 2009, 08:40:06 PM »
I'm now on Day Three of my seven day ferment, and I notice the dough balls are starting to speckle with the spotting the Peter noticed in his original experiment. Not as pronounced as Peter's pics, but definitely getting that way.

Peter - I've read through the thread on the spotting issue, but couldn't determine at what point the spotting started for you.

I wonder if my dough is fermenting at an accelerated rate. On the other hand, the balls have flattened out but I can't detect any substantial rising. The usual Lehmann recipe I use would have risen a bit by Day Three.

Just wondering if I'm on the right track...

Thx,
Josh

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #189 on: November 30, 2009, 09:08:59 PM »
Josh,

Your question on spotting is a tough one. Unless I specifically noted in a post when the spotting started, I perhaps didn't note when the spotting first occurred. Remember, also, that I used metal lidded containers and periodically removed the lids to see what was happening to the dough balls in the containers. As you may also recall from your reading of this thread, I described an experiment at Reply 118 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42774.html#msg42774 from which I concluded that oxygen was necessary for the spotting to occur. As noted in that post, there was no spotting of the dough after being entombed in a evacuated pouch after 15 days, when I ended the experiment. So, it is possible that opening my metal containers from time to time, combined with using high-gluten flour, the dough got exposed to oxygen and led to the spotting that was noted in the photos I posted.

If your dough is based on a hydration of around 65%, it would not be unusual for the dough to slump and spread. Unless you used some method to measure expansion, such as the poppy seed method, you might not be able to say with certainty that the dough did not expand. It would also not be unusual for the dough to behave differently from a rise standpoint from a basic Lehmann dough using the same dough formulation. The methods you used are calculated to extend the window of usability of the basic Lehmann dough. I would be worried if you told me that your dough is behaving like a regular Lehmann dough.

I don't see anything at this point that leads me to believe that you are heading into a ditch.

Peter


Offline torontonian

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #190 on: November 30, 2009, 09:52:34 PM »
Thanks Peter.

It may be due to the fact that I periodically open the top container (I have three dough balls) to peek inside. I just opened the bottom of the three containers, lo and behold, no spotting. You were exactly right - I was keeping the top dough oxygen-ized.

The point I was making about the 'usual' Lehmann, was exactly what you were saying - I don't think I've over-risen the dough. I thought I'd put it out there in case you found the spotting occurred only at the very end of the experiments.

I will try to avoid peeking until Day Seven. Thanks as always.

I also have my first try at a Verasano Neapolitan in the fridge for a three day cold ferment. Will do my best to post pics to get the feedback of the forum.

-- Josh

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #191 on: November 30, 2009, 09:53:34 PM »
Peter,
I see torontonian has told you how his dough is doing, so I thought I would also let you know how the Lehmann dough is doing.  I checked it today and measured the poppy seeds.  They are exactly 1 ˝" apart.  Since my dough is still in the plastic bags, I don’t know how much difference that will be in determining about the “poppy seed” trick.  Here are two pictures how my dough looks.  They were taken this afternoon after the same time as I made my dough last week, so one more day to go.  If I have time tomorrow (which I probably will, because hunting just opened today) I will try and take a video of me opening the dough and then a picture of the finished pizza.  
Here is a video today of my mixer making the dough today.  My mother that is 87 years old took the video and usually I am standing on the right of my mixer to put my ingredients in.  I usually don’t have any problems with the flour pouring up the sides like it did today, but I was on the wrong side of the mixer.  You can see in the video when I drizzled the olive oil in.  Usually my mixer doesn’t have any residue left in the bowl, but because I messed up pouring in the flour, it did have residue at the top edges.  At least you can see how my mixer performs.  
I am interested in seeing how torontonian dough turns out, also.



Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #192 on: November 30, 2009, 10:11:17 PM »
Norma,

If the poppy seed spacing is 1.5", that suggests that the dough has more than tripled in volume. However, it is hard to say for sure since I have never tried using the poppy seed trick in a sealed bag where there is no space between the poppy seeds and the top of the container. It is possible that your application is not one where the poppy seed trick has sufficient accuracy as to merit its use. Can you estimate visually whether the dough more than tripled in volume?

I would proceed as planned. I look forward to your results and observations.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #193 on: November 30, 2009, 10:23:13 PM »
Peter,
The dough doesn't look like it tripled in volume, but then it is in the plastic bag.  It looks like it has fermented a lot by the looks of the bubbles, but I am not an expert at this.  Visually, I just can tell you what I have seen today.
Will post the results tomorrow.
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #194 on: December 01, 2009, 09:50:08 PM »
Peter,
The experiment went well.  I had made 5 dough balls to test.  The first dough ball was left on the slab for about 1 ˝ hours.  When I went to opened it I had my daughter take a video and it just wanted to tear.  I thought I might have left it on the slab too long and I threw it away.  I thought there were four more doughs to experiment with so I proceeded.  The 2nd dough ball I just removed from the deli case without letting it warm up.  The 2nd dough opened up really well and when I put it in the oven it didn’t get any bubbles in while it was in the oven.  Since that seemed to work, just taking it out of the deli case and using it without a warm up, that is what I did with the 3rd dough ball.  When I removed the 3rd dough ball and placed it on the slab, the dough developed a big bubble.  I then put it in flour and began opening the 3rd dough ball.  It opened up okay.  The 4th dough ball was the same.  When I opened up the dough it seemed like it could stretch really far. 
The taste of the finished pizza crust was very good.  I didn’t get big airy holes like I thought I would.  The only thing that puzzled me about this experiment was I couldn’t let the dough warm up before I starting making the pizza.  Does that make any sense to you?  After the first ball and having it tear so much, the rest did well just coming out of the deli case.  All the experiment pizzas performed the same in the oven.
Picture 1  comparison of my regular dough with experiment dough.
Picture 2  picture of where I kept the dough for 8 days in the deli case.
Picture 3  finished pizza made with 2nd dough
Picture 4 rim of second pizza
Picture 5 stretched dough of 3rd pizza
Picture 6 4th dough ball after I put it on marble slab-note the big bubble
Picture 7 4th dough ball finished pizza
I decided to take the 5th dough ball and bring it home to freeze it to see if I can still use it next week.  I will upload the one video tomorrow of the dough tearing with the first dough ball.  My daughter also took a video of me opening the 2nd dough ball and I will upload that tomorrow too, so you can see how the dough performed.
I don’t really think the poppy seed trick worked with my using the plastic bags.  Every dough ball had a different measurement of the spaces the poppy seeds spread apart.
Let me know what you think this experiment tells you about what an 8 hour fermentation in my commercial setting.
After watching the first video of me opening the first dough that tore quickly, I decided not to post it on you tube because you can't really see the dough tearing, so I will just post the one of me opening the second dough.
Here is the video of opening the 2nd dough ball without first letting the dough warm up.



Norma
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 08:32:16 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #195 on: December 02, 2009, 09:42:59 AM »
Norma,

Based on your results and the video, I have several thoughts and comments to offer. But before presenting them, can you tell me (or remind me if you have already said) at what point you added the IDY?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #196 on: December 02, 2009, 09:51:31 AM »
Peter,
I added the IDY and salt right on top of the flour, just like I did in this video taken this week.  All the mixing procedures were the same for the 8 day fermentation.



Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #197 on: December 02, 2009, 10:23:13 AM »
Peter,
This is off topic, but since you mentioned in this thread about trying to get your dough temperature down, did you ever try putting ice cubes in plastic bags or something similar and either tie  with twine or use a large rubber band around the mixing bowl to keep the temperature of your finished dough lower?  Just thought I would mention this while it is fresh in my mind.
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #198 on: December 02, 2009, 10:38:47 AM »
Norma,

Thank you.

The reason why I asked you about the timing of the addition of the IDY to the dough is that I discovered, as discussed at various points in this thread, that the window of usability of the dough can be lengthened by adding the IDY late in the dough making process. In your case, you got eight days out of your dough, which is unusual in itself in a commercial environment, but I would say that your dough was close to overfermenting. Also, your gluten structure was no doubt weakened by the protease enzymes attacking the gluten structure. It is possible to slow down the effects of the protease enzymes by adding more salt, but I personally have been trying to lower my sodium intake, much as the U.S. government is trying to reduce the MDR for sodium and asking food processors to lower the sodium content of their products. However, there are some members of the forum who are using over 2% salt, in some cases considerably more than that. So, that is an option in your case if you are so inclined. However, I would personally rather alter the timing of the addition of the IDY to the dough making process than to increase the salt levels. I tried several timing approaches with the IDY, and found that adding it to the dough before or after the oil seemed to work quite well. An alternative approach is to use ADY in dry form instead of the IDY. I believe that is how some chains do it to ensure that the dough balls delivered to their stores can last a week or so.

The last time I made a dough ball with a bubble as large as the one you showed was using Canadave's NY style dough recipe. The dough used a lot of yeast and a large bubble appeared after about one day of fermentation. I pinched the bubble shut and let the dough ferment for a bit over five days. You can see the bubble at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652. In your case, I believe the problem was overproofing rather than too much yeast. It was no surprise to me that the dough handled better cold rather than warm. That is quite common with an overproofed/overfermented dough. Such a dough will also be highly extensible if allowed to warm up before handling.

At this point, you have several options. You can repeat the experiment but with the late addition of the IDY. Or you can use ADY instead of the IDY (I believe you should be able to add the ADY up front with the rest of the ingredients). Or you can repeat your experiment but use the dough after only 6 days instead of 8 days, if that is something that works for you schedule-wise. As noted above, you can also increase the salt content. There are other possibilities, such as lowering the amount of yeast and lowering the hydration, but I generally don't like to change too many variables at one time.

I agree with you that the poppy seed trick does not seem to work as well in your case where you are using the plastic bags.

If you need help with any other experiment you decide to undertake, let me know.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #199 on: December 02, 2009, 11:05:24 AM »
Peter,
I agree that the 8 day fermentation dough was close to over fermenting.  I noticed when opening the dough it felt like little honeycomb structures in the dough.  Was that what you are talking about when you said my gluten structure was weakened by the protease enzymes attacking the gluten structure? 
I added the picture of the deli case so you could see I kept the dough in the bottom right hand corner to keep it as cold as I could.
Yes, I can now see how the cold dough handled better than the warmed up dough. The first dough ball I tried just wanted to tear, so that is why I just tried it right out of the deli case.
 I would like to try this experiment again.  I would like to try with adding IDY either later or at the end and still go for an 8 day fermentation to see what the results would be. Do you think I should lower the IDY any more at this point?
I would like to try the poppy seed trick again, too.  This time I will purchase 5 Glad containers and see how that works.  Do you suggest to drill a small hole in the lid, like you have suggested before?  What size Glad containers do you use?  Maybe then I can really see how much the dough ferments.
Let me know which you want me to try to get the best results.
I did really enjoy the taste of the crust.  It was much better than my one day fermentation. 
Norma
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 11:12:49 AM by norma427 »
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