Author Topic: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method  (Read 92223 times)

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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #220 on: December 04, 2009, 04:01:46 PM »
Bill,

I tend to think not. Otherwise, I think you would find blistering in crusts made from doughs fermented for a couple or hours or so (at room temperature). I have never seen them in such cases, even with the dough balls being coated with oil and using bench flour. There may be many reasons for the small blisters forming, but I believe that the most common explanation is long fermentation times, whether at ambient temperature of under cold fermentation. At least that has been my experience making just about all kinds of doughs under many different conditions.

To test your thesis, you can make a test emergency dough and use your oiled surface/floured hands to see if you can create the blistering effect.

Peter

Peter,  
           I doubt there is anything to it also as I was just wondering if there could be any effect that I am not aware of that may cause it.  I usually bake my doughs only when they are well fermented and running close to over-fermented. To me the flavor is far superior.

I dont appear to have problems getting the small bubbles so I would have to agree with you that it is the long fermentation. But come to think of it I have got those bubbles on 1 day ferm's also.  While I dont do single days very often and have seen the bubbles before I just never "thought" about them until that thread came up the other day really. I wonder if its more based on the "amount" or % of fermentention as opposed to the length.

Peter if ya want you can move this to the thread reagarding the subject.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 04:12:05 PM by ThunderStik »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #221 on: December 04, 2009, 04:12:05 PM »
Bill,

I will leave the recent "blistering" posts here because the pizza crusts I made under this thread had blistering as a material component. Hence, it is something that relates to this thread.

Peter

Offline torontonian

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #222 on: December 04, 2009, 04:55:41 PM »
Well, I think my 7 day ferment experiment was a bust.

The dough smelled so bad, I couldn't bring myself to even try and bake it.

Really surprised the yeast could be dead, since it was a new jar of Fleischmanns IDY and I made several pies during the time these ones were fermenting in the fridge.

It didn't really look like Norma's dough, and it certainly wasn't grey in color.

Oh well - undeterred I will move on to trying something else. Perhaps a 24 hour room temperature ferment.

-- Josh

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #223 on: December 04, 2009, 05:10:56 PM »
Josh,

I am at a loss to understand why the dough did not work for you. I can't recall ever losing a dough because of bad yeast but I mentioned that possibility to you since the only explanation I can come up with for zero rise in the dough, at any stage, is dead yeast. Without live yeast, there can be no fermentation activity, and with no fermentation activity, there can be no gases of fermentation to cause the dough to rise. Is it possible that you forgot to add the yeast? Also, did you try to open up a dough ball and, if so, what did you experience?

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #224 on: December 04, 2009, 05:26:06 PM »
Quote
The dough smelled so bad, I couldn't bring myself to even try and bake it.

Like Peter said, I don't think it's a dead yeast issue, either. But I also don't believe that the dough was a bad one, especially if you used a cold rise. The dough might have fermented just enough to turn into a slightly sourdough one after 7 days.

However, I would have just given it a shot, opened the dough and done a test bake without any sauce or toppings to see if you get any reaction(oven rise) out of it.

Any chance you took a pic so we can see what it looked like?
Mike

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Offline ThunderStik

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #225 on: December 04, 2009, 05:35:03 PM »
Josh, we need pics brother. That would help out alot.

Also is there any chance you didnt put the yeast in?  Not that I have been making pizza for years or anything but I cant remember ever having dead yeast...ever.
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Offline torontonian

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #226 on: December 04, 2009, 05:52:00 PM »
I didn't think to take pics. Sorry about that. Visually it was unremarkable. It looked like Peter's dough after 7 days, spotting and all.

Normally I would have given it a shot to see the end result, even if I didn't observe a rise. It was just the smell that was so strong I couldn't inhale up close without gagging.

One data point that I didn't provide earlier was that on Day 5, I took one of the dough balls out of the fridge (recall I initially made three) and made a pie out of it. Really just to see if the spotting was indeed harmless. That dough had a slightly "whole wheat" aroma to it. It had a decent oven rise (which tells me I did not forget the yeast), but the end result tasted odd. It tasted exactly as it smelled - like whole wheat. I gave my son a slice, and he said it tasted "weird". At the time I thought it just might need those extra few days fermentation.

But the "whole wheat" smell was simply overpowering today. I knew exactly what it was going to taste like after being in the oven...

I wonder if it got contaminated somehow?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #227 on: December 04, 2009, 06:09:28 PM »
Josh,

I found that I had to go out to about 23 days before I found the crust flavors to be on the funky side, as I noted at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42556.html#msg42556. That dough also included some vinegar, which may also have contributed to the off flavors. At one point, I had wondered whether it was safe to eat a pizza made with a dough that was long in the tooth, but, as noted by member November at Reply 98 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg41468.html#msg41468, apparently I hadn't yet reached that point.

The benchmark I used for comparison purposes when I conducted the experiments in this thread was pizza crusts that were leavened with wild yeast (natural starters/preferments).

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #228 on: December 07, 2009, 05:21:18 PM »
Peter,
I made the 5 dough balls today.  Since it was cold here last night, I left my filtered water in the jugs in my van until I went to market. I thought the water would stay colder outside.  I mixed the water, flour, and salt, and then added the olive oil.  After that was mixed I added the IDY last and mixed until I thought it was dispersed. Even after I thought the dough was throughly mixed the dough still looked a little ragged, but after forming the balls it looked okay.  Since it was colder at the market today the other ingredients were lower in temperature and also my finished dough temperature.. 
My temperatures were:

Water                          35 degrees F
Flour Temp.                  55 degrees F
Room Temp.                 53 degrees F
Finished dough Temp.    53 degrees F
Deli Case Temp.             39 degrees F
Placed Poppy Seeds on dough balls in 4 containers and 1 dough ball in plastic bag.

I had to use my heavy duty drill to get a hole in the container.  Just joking, I had to have that there to hang some Christmas decorations. I drilled the lid with a 1/16" bit. I did use other containers that were bigger than I had said before.  I used Rubbermaid 6.2 cup containers.
I have one question to ask.  I had mixed the test dough first and put the containers in the bottom of the deli case. I then mixed my other dough and did other things there.  I was at market about 4 and a half  hours.  I looked at the container before I left and there looked like condensation on the lids.  Is that normal?
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #229 on: December 07, 2009, 05:55:18 PM »
Norma,

Yes, I also experienced condensation on the lids.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #230 on: December 08, 2009, 11:21:40 PM »
Peter,
I used the last dough ball today, that I had taken home last week to freeze. This was the experimental dough ball that I didnít use last week. 
I really didnít expect to be able to do anything with it, but thought I would try this week.  I removed it out of the freezer this morning and let it in my deli case until this afternoon.  I then left it sit on the counter until it was almost unfrozen.  You could still feel some ice crystals in the dough.  I proceeded to open the dough. 
I was pleasantly surprised that this dough ball performed better than the dough did last week.  I didnít feel any of the honeycomb effect and the dough didnít tear. 
The dough did feel sticky and I just dusted with flour.  I didnít notice any strong smell from the dough, either. 
I still donít understand how this dough performed better than last week.  How can this dough that I thought was over fermented last week, get better this week?  The taste of the crust was outstanding to me.  I tore a piece of the rim off on the last picture to see how the inside of the crust looked.  There were many small bubbles inside.
These are the pictures I took today.
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #231 on: December 09, 2009, 01:56:54 PM »
Norma,

There are certain phenomena that are difficult to explain. In your case, the factors that might have been involved include the condition of the dough ball at the time it was frozen (e.g., gassy vs. degassed), how long the dough ball was frozen and at what temperature, how long the dough ball was defrosted, and how long the dough ball was allowed to warm up before shaping. If the dough ball was cooler than the other dough balls when you decided to open it up, maybe that was responsible for the improved handling and reduced webbing.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #232 on: December 09, 2009, 03:25:23 PM »
Peter,
I can understand how many circumstances can effect the dough.  I can see this weekly in the same dough I make.  As the day continues the same dough has many different characteristics. 
I did bring the 8 day fermentation dough home after market last week and put the dough into my freezer. The dough ball from last week that I used this Tuesday was almost at the point of being completely defrosted, with some ice crystals.
 My freezer is a manual defrost and in my shed separate from my home and from what I have read about them, I donít know if that makes a difference in how the dough freezes or not.

Manual defrost freezers are more common than automatic defrost models. Manual defrost models consume 35-40 percent less energy than comparable automatic defrost models. Automatic defrost freezers may dehydrate frozen food, causing freezer burn.

I never have taken a reading of the temperature in my home freezer.  I know things stay rock solid hard and last for a longer period than my combination refrigerator freezer.  Since there are no defrost cycles, the food just stays the same.
I will keep on noting different changes I see and what happens.
Thank you,
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #233 on: December 11, 2009, 05:06:44 PM »
When I went to market today I must have inadvertently left the deli case door open a little Tuesday night. The temperature in the deli case was 41 degrees F. I measured  the dough with a tape measure and it looks like the dough is any where between 1 and 1/16 inch to 1 and 1/8 inch. I had a hard time trying to measure because I only had a metal tape measure and the bowl got in the way.  I donít know how much this will effect the 8 day fermentation.  Here is how the dough looked today.  I noticed what looked like dark specks in the dough.  I will proceed Tuesday and see what happens.
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #234 on: December 11, 2009, 05:45:11 PM »
Norma,

At 1 1/16", the expansion would be 1.06253 = 1.20, or an increase of about 20%; at 1 1/8", the expansion would be 1.1253 = 1.42, or an increase of about 42%. I checked some poppy seed numbers on an 8-day dough that I made a while back and your numbers look similar to mine. Did you note when the dough balls went into your deli case?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #235 on: December 11, 2009, 06:02:58 PM »
Peter,
Yes, I did note when the dough balls went into the deli case.  The time was 11:58 a.m.  Do I open the dough balls around the same time Tuesday?  The difference between 20% and 42% sounds like a lot. I will measure the distance between the poppy seeds on Tuesday.
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #236 on: December 11, 2009, 06:14:01 PM »
Norma,

I think you are OK but I will await your next number. We can then do a new calculation to see where we stand. Or you can do your own calculations along the way. All you need is a standard calculator. As an example, 1.1253 is 1.125 x 1.125 x 1.125.

In my last post, I said that I made an 8-day dough. I noticed after I posted that it was actually a 10-day dough. The poppy seeds after 10 days were spaced by 1.25", which represented a doubling of the dough.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #237 on: December 11, 2009, 06:21:37 PM »
Peter,
Thanks, and I will try your advise on using a calculator to try my own calculations. 
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #238 on: December 12, 2009, 03:12:31 PM »
Peter,
I was reading http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27482.html#msg27482 reply 33 and you were explaining how to determine the thickness factor and calculate.  I have copied out that page and bookmarked it for future reference.
As I have said before in other posts, I am not good at math.  I only know basic math and have been trying to figure how when I told you about the poppy seed spacing of 11/16" and 11/8", how do you figure the expansion to be 1.0625 and 1.125?  ::) Where do those numbers come from?
I do understand how you are telling me to use a standard calculator and take 1.125 times factor of 3.  I guess. ::)
For someone like me that never has taken algebra in high school this sounds confusing to me.
If you have time to explain how I would do this, I will try.
Thanks,
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #239 on: December 12, 2009, 03:49:14 PM »
I only know basic math and have been trying to figure how when I told you about the poppy seed spacing of 11/16" and 11/8", how do you figure the expansion to be 1.0625 and 1.125?  ::) Where do those numbers come from?

Norma,

If you divide the number 1 by the number 16 on your calculator, you will get 1/16 = 0.0625. To that, if you add 1, you will  get 1.0625. Similarly, if you divide the number 1 by the number 8 on your calculator, you will get 1/8 = 0.125. To that, if you add 1, you will get 1.125. I just converted the fractions to decimal form and added 1 to them.

Peter


 

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