Author Topic: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method  (Read 90776 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #240 on: December 12, 2009, 10:36:24 PM »
Peter,
Since you have explained it to me it makes sense.  I knew how to take measurements with a ruler or tape measure, but didnít know how to convert the the 16th's into decimals.
Thanks,
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #241 on: December 14, 2009, 04:31:52 PM »
Peter,
Here is what the dough balls looked like today.  There are still dark specks in the dough.  3 dough balls have bubbles, the one doesn't.  The dough ball in the plastic bag doesn't have any big bubbles.  I didn't measure the distance between the poppy seeds.  I will try to measure the one without the bubble tomorrow.  The temperature of the deli case was 39 degrees F.
Norma
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 04:33:27 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #242 on: December 15, 2009, 10:20:35 PM »
Peter,
Using the 8 days fermentation went okay, today.  The first dough ball I let warm up on the counter until the temperature reached 55 degrees F.  When opening the dough I noticed some thin spots.  The next picture is the rim on the first pizza, then the finished pizza. 
On the second dough ball, I decided to only let dough temperature on the counter rise to 48 degrees F, because I thought maybe it wouldnít get thin spots.  That worked okay.  The next picture is of the second dough coming out of the bowl, then finished pizza.  Finally the rim of the second pizza.
The third and fourth dough balls were also left on the counter until they reached 48 degrees F.  I didnít notice any thin spots when the dough was 48 degrees F. 
The second, third and fourth dough all handled well. I like the light and airy rim the 8 day fermentation gave me. 
I think all the pizza crusts tasted great.
I didnít have time to open the fifth dough ball.
The measurement I got on the dough ball with no bubbles was 1 5/16.  I calculated that to be 0.20 or 60%.  Is that right?   Measuring the dough ball in the container was difficult.  What do you use to measure your poppy seeds?
I did still notice the black specks in the dough, but it didnít seem to affect the dough.
In conclusion, I enjoyed doing this experiment and learning more about different fermentation times and also how to handle dough so it can be used.
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #243 on: December 15, 2009, 10:22:04 PM »
Last picture of measurement.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #244 on: December 16, 2009, 08:29:43 AM »
Norma,

Thank you for conducting the experiment and posting your results. To the best of my knowledge, you are the first member to use the principles discussed in this thread to try to achieve long dough lives outside of a home setting setting and to report on your results. I can envision some possible changes to what you did to perhaps improve your results, but I wondered whether you saw any merit, beyond increasing your knowledge on the subject, to using the principles on a more regular basis in your commercial operations. As you perhaps learned, there are some risks in attempting long dough ball lives. I think your pizzas look good and you noted the improved crust flavors, but perhaps that is not enough to warrant using the basic dough life-prolonging methods on a wider scale in your commercial operation. If your customers note no differences, then it might not make sense to take on increased risk to coax more flavor out of your crusts.

With respect to your question on how I measure the spacing between poppy seeds, I use a small wooden ruler that I rest on the top of my storage container. I just line up the markings with the poppy seed spacing and note the value of the spacing. That way, I don't have to actually put a ruler or other measuring device (like a locking tape such as you used) on the dough itself. However, if I didn't use that method, I would use the method you used. FYI, if the final spacing of the poppy seeds was 1 5/16", the way you calculate the dough expansion is to first convert 5/16" to a decimal value of 0.3125, add "1" to that to get 1.3125, and cube that value (1.3125 x 1.3125 x 1.3125) to get 2.26. That is a bit more than a doubling of the volume of the dough. That is a good result in terms of dough expansion, especially since I had some concern that your deli case runs a bit warmer than a typical commercial cooler, which typically runs about 5-7 degrees F cooler than your deli case (at around 40 degrees F). On the basis of your poppy seed spacing, if I had to guess I think you might have been able to get another day or two out of your dough balls, albeit with some likely increase in the extensibility due to the increased fermentation time and the effects of the enzymes on the gluten structure.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #245 on: December 16, 2009, 09:14:23 AM »
Peter,
Thank you for going over my results and helping me with this experiment. 
I did enjoy the improved flavor of the crust.  In the new year I would like to experiment more on getting increased flavor in the crust.  With the new year coming in our area in Pa. will be seeing a 30% rate increase in our monthly bills.  My deli case will not hold all the dough I need for the week.  I now turn off my pizza prep refrigerator until I make my dough on Monday.  I would like to wait until I see how much my electric bill goes up at market.  All my appliances are turned off during the week, expect my deli case. 
If you have time in the new year to help me with another experiment, I would greatly appreciate it. 
Stand holders that I have given samples to of the longer fermented dough have all commented they like the crust flavor.  At least I have people that can give me feedback.  They all say they like all my pizza, so I guess they are biased.
Yes, I can see the risks of attempting longer fermentation in the lives of dough balls.  Especially since I have many to deal with many and not just the five and also when the weather is warmer. 
I want to keep on experimenting with my dough, but at this time donít know what to do.  Would you suggest using a higher hydration or increased IDY amount for my Lehmann dough to give me better results? I have increased my oven 25 degrees F to 550 degrees F, now.  I would like to just try my one day fermentation to see if I can get any better results.  I would use a test dough first. 
Thank you for telling me what kind of ruler you used for the poppy seed trick and explaining how to calculate, again.
I could see when I when I went to open the first dough how it was having some problems.  That is why I didnít let the dough temperature sitting on the counter to get above 48 degrees F. With the shorter time on the counter the dough seemed to open okay. 
I agree my dough would not have lasted much longer.
Thanks again,
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #246 on: December 16, 2009, 12:19:37 PM »
Norma,

When you are ready for another experiment, let me know.

Unless you use a natural starter that is properly maintained or you use a very long cold fermentation such as described in this thread, it is difficult to get really good crust flavors using a basic recipe such as the Lehmann recipe in the usual manner. Another possibility is to convert the Lehmann recipe to a preferment format in which the preferment works most of the day at room temperature and you do the final mix in the evening to make a dough that then goes into the cooler for use the over a period of one or more days. Unless there is a way of combining a preferment and a very long cold fermentation as described in this thread, that is a topic that would best be the subject of a new thread.

If you would like to stay with the protocol of your last experiment but try to improve upon it, that is also an option.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #247 on: December 17, 2009, 06:39:17 AM »
Peter,
Thank you for saying you would help me with another way to get a better tasting crust.
I have been thinking about what I would like to try next.  I think I would like to try a preferment using a poolish and try that on test dough balls. 
In the new year I will post under another thread asking for advise from you and other members on what procedures I should try.
Thanks,
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #248 on: December 22, 2009, 09:37:05 PM »
Peter,
Since I had the one dough ball left from last week, I just kept it in the deli case to see what would happen to it until today.  I opened the plastic bag and although the dough didnít smell bad, it was really gray.  On these pictures you canít really see how gray it was.  It had a lot of dark spots.  I took the dough right out of the deli case and proceeded to open it.  Although the dough was hard to open, it didnít have webbing.  I couldnít get into a perfect round shape.  I dressed the dough and baked the pie.  The taste of this dough was better than last week. The crust was crispy. This dough had 16 days fermentation.  I had thought that the dough was almost bad last week, but I guess it wasnít. Steve (Ev) came when we removed the pie from the oven and he tasted the pie, too. He could see I couldnít get a round pie. I showed him the pictures I had taken of the dough before I opened it and how gray it looked.
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #249 on: February 02, 2010, 11:38:26 PM »

 The dough was used today, that was frozen since this last experiment.  I had taken it to market last week and it defrosted in the pizza prep fridge. I didn't have time to use it last Tueday. It was then frozen again, last Tuesday.  The dough went to market again, today.
 
The dough didn't give me any trouble in opening it.  The pizza using this dough tasted great.

I guess this will remain a mystery how this dough was abused and still worked out well.  Maybe it is in using a freezer that doesn't defrost itself.  Probably will never figure that out.  I just wanted to see what would happen with this dough.

The one picture was taken after opening the dough.  It was just put on the pizza pans to take a picture.  The other picture is of the finished pizza.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #250 on: February 03, 2010, 10:22:11 AM »
Norma,

Was that one of the dough balls from the batch that you made about the middle of December 2009 and exposed to periods of defrost and refreezing? If so, the pizza you made looks very good. As we have discussed before, there can be no fermentation of the dough while it is frozen. Once defrosted, the dough starts to ferment again. Refreezing it gradually brings the fermentation to a halt again. I'm sure in your case that it helped that your freezer does not have the typical cycling defrost feature. That is not the best thing for frozen dough and is likely to shorten its useful life.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #251 on: February 03, 2010, 11:10:36 AM »
Peter,

That was one of the dough balls left over from December 2009.  It was exposed to different periods of defrost and refreezing.  Thanks for saying it looked good.  I was going to throw the dough ball away last week, but figured why not try and see if the dough would still be okay.

I do think since my shed freezer is a manual freezer and not having defrost cycles, that might be why the dough ball survived so long. The freezer is in the candy shed and we used to keep butter, nuts and other items for our caramel corn business.  I know from freezing food in kitchen freezer, how fast food can get freezer burn.  When I buy extra meat or freeze cheese, I always freeze it in the manual freezer.  It stays good in there for a long while, also. The food in the manual freezer isnít exposed to opening or shutting the door as much, either.

I still will chalk this up to the mystery of dough and freezing.  Sometime I want to take two dough balls and freeze one in the house freezer and also one in the manual freezer and see what happens.  I almost positive that the one in the manual freezer will do better. 

Here is a picture of the dough ball at market yesterday, before it thawed.  The ice crystals can be seen on the dough.

Norma
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #252 on: February 04, 2010, 01:58:22 AM »
Pete, do you think you could adapt this method to create a neapolitan dough (well, not truly neapolitan since it'd be cold risen) utilizing only IDY to achieve amazing flavor?

I'm not sure how it would adapt, or how it would hold up with Toby's cooking method. I'd be interested to see, if you could do a test batch with his method.  :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #253 on: February 04, 2010, 03:05:18 PM »
hotsawce,

At one point I did consider using the method with a 00 flour but never got around to doing it, most likely because I ran out of the 00 flour and did not replenish it because the flour doesn't perform as well in my home oven as in a very high temperature oven. Nonetheless, the principles involved should still apply even for the 00 flour. However, that said, 00 flour is unmalted and, as Marco (pizzanapoletana) told us at Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13410/topicseen.html#msg13410, it has low amylase activity and is not ideal for cold fermentation applications. It still might be worth an experiment, however, to see how the end product performs. Using Toby's baking method would also be interesting.

Peter

Offline hotsawce

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #254 on: February 04, 2010, 04:46:57 PM »
If possible, I'd even like to see one of your regular doughs using this method cooked via toby's oven method. I'm curious to see if it comes out any differently.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #255 on: February 06, 2010, 06:40:44 PM »
Pete, one more question for you.

Do you think your method and glutenboy's method (his 8 day pie looks amazing) can be adapted, in some way, for those mixing by hand?

Unfortunately, I do not own a mixer and I don't have the money for one right now, but I would still like to make a dough that I can let ferment for 8 days or so. Any suggestions are welcome  :)

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #256 on: February 06, 2010, 07:13:46 PM »
Hotsawce -

I don't think the mixer is essential to an extended refrigeration dough.  I've made plenty by hand when I've been away from my kitchen and still gotten shelf life.  It's just a lot of hand kneading to develop the dough.  I think more essential to the long refrigeration is low yeast so the dough won't be overactive during it's sleep.  I wouldn't change the recipe except to account for feel.  Different flours will demand different hydrations to achieve the same consistency.  Otherwise, don't sweat the missing mixer.  Just do a good bulk counter rise, ball it, oil it, cold-store it, and if the containers start to bulge after a couple of days, burp them like tupperware.  I am a control freak, and I've found a little faith to be an ally in these situations.  What's the worst that can happen?  (Actually, never ask that question...  You don't want an answer!!!  >:D )

- GB

ps - Norma, that geriatric dough makes some beautiful pizzas.  The color of the crust was very nice and it looked lighter than air.  Bet the flavor was amazing.  How would you characterize it?  Sour?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 09:38:31 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #257 on: February 06, 2010, 07:47:29 PM »
hotsawce,

The doughs that I described in this thread have things in common with Glutenboy's dough but there are some material differences. For example, I used more yeast (but still on the fairly low side) and less salt than Glutenboy (which affects the fermentation process), a higher hydration (which speeds up the fermentation process), and my dough balls were generally larger (from a bit larger to several ounces larger) and perhaps took longer to cool down than Glutenboy's roughly 300-gram dough balls. Also, in my case, in order to get a fairly low finished dough temperature after all of the many steps that I used to make my doughs, I found it necessary to use very cold water. By contrast, my recollection is that Glutenboy uses room temperature water. One of the problems with hand kneading a dough that uses very cold water is that it is harder to hydrate the flour than if room temperature water were to be used. Also, hand kneading takes longer than a machine so the dough has a tendency to warm up toward room temperature, thereby raising the finished dough temperature. To compensate for the warmer water and the fact that you would be hand kneading the dough, I would perhaps lower the yeast quantity. It would also be possible to increase the salt level, perhaps to something like the 2.5% salt level that Glutenboy uses, and to slow down the fermentation in the process, but for taste and other reasons (e.g., keeping sodium levels down), I use around 1.50-1.75% salt.

For now, since Glutenboy has weighed in with his opinion on hand kneading, my advice is to go with his recipe and preparation methods. Once you see how that recipe turns out for you, you can always consider a version of one of the doughs described in this thread.

Peter

Offline hotsawce

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #258 on: February 06, 2010, 08:48:57 PM »
Thanks for the wealth of information. You hit on everything I could have possibly wanted to know. I'll likely be making this dough a few days before I get my new oven, and I'll be sure to take pictures of the before and after.

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
« Reply #259 on: February 06, 2010, 09:39:33 PM »
Norma -

I see you're on line.  I added to my last post with a comment and question for you.

- GB  :chef:
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.