Author Topic: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images  (Read 3822 times)

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Offline canadianbacon

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Hi guys,

This past weekend, I decided to make some dough ( a double batch ) and try my pizza screen instead of
using my well used pizza stone.

I am really surprised with the results, meaning, I am impressed I made a pizza that tasted better to me
done on the pizza screen, than done on my stone.  I will have to do some more tests this coming week, but
it seems the pizza screen did a better overall job than the stone did.

I decided to do a double batch, which for me is using 2 cups of water.

2 cups of water
1 tablespoon sugar
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon yeast ( IDY )
3 tablespoons of veg. oil
Enough flour to create a dough ball. ( all purpose flour )

( I don't ever measure my flour, perhaps I should, but I slowly add the flour
in, until I see it's formed correctly, and that the consistancy is fine )

I got my yeast going with the water and sugar, and let that go for about 10 mins, and then
added in a cup of flour, mixed it for a good 5 mins, and let that sit for 20 mins or so.  I then added
more flour, all of the oil and mixed it for a good 5 mins, and then let it stand for about 15 mins.
Then I added in the salt, and mixed it, and then finally added more flour very slowly until I got a good
dough ball and then let that mix for about 10 mins more .

One thing I like to do, which some do, is break up the dough ball before I ferment it.  For years I would
ferment the whole dough ball, and only then break it up. ( I never weighed it either )

Anyway, this time I broke up the big dough ball into 3 smaller balls, aiming for 16 oz each.  I ended up with
those 3 balls at 16 oz, and then split up the tiny bit of dough that was left over ( about 2 oz ) between the
3 balls.  I then made a nice ball with each, and put them in the fridge.   One I used that night ( Friday )
and the next ball I used the following night ( Saturday ) and wow,,, that dough was MUCH nicer than Friday's dough.
( it had slowly fermented a good 24 hours in the fridge )

The other dough ( 3rd doughball ) is frozen in the fridge at the moment.

Anyway, the first thing I find with making the doughball size in advance, is that it is 1000% easier creating the final
shape for the pizza, as it's much faster, so much faster, and I don't over work the dough.  I just have to get some
bench flour down, and away I go slowly working the dough with my hands until I get the dough into a good sized circle, and then I will get my hands under the dough, and use my knuckles and thumbs to gently stretch it a bit more, to get the final diameter.

I turned the oven to its highest setting ( and for those new people that doesn't mean 500,
this means you turn your oven past the highest setting on the oven, eventhough it's not marked on the
oven knob.  On my oven there is a little "click" when it gets to that highest setting ) ,

I preheated the oven over an hour for both pizzas ( about 1 hour 15 mins I'd say )
I also used a pizza screen instead of going directly onto the stone.
I'd say that I like the pizzas on the screen better than on the stone ! ( is that possible ?? )
I find my oven is better suited to a screen.... not sure why, but I find the pizzza turn
out more like the resturaunt I go to.... ( Saturday's pizza was cheese, bacon and pepporoni )

In Friday night's images, you can see the 3 original doughballs ( all just a tad over 16 oz each )

I snapped some images :

Friday night's pizza: ( complete album of 31 images )

http://www.detroitgrillking.com/frosty/oct-27-pizza/

Saturday night's images: ( complete album of 31 images )
http://www.detroitgrillking.com/frosty/oct-28-pizza/

( All images below are from Saturday night's pizza )
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 09:38:36 AM by canadianbacon »
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Offline cocoabean

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 11:59:35 AM »
Beautiful crumb.  I love the gelatinaztation (a word?) in the crumb there.

Offline syed

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cheer up
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2006, 02:31:19 AM »
hi ,
 u did a great job n nice photo too , i want to know how to put images in post just give me reply

syed

Offline bolabola

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 02:10:29 AM »
hey CB,
do you put a pizza pan under your screen or do you put the screen directly on the oven rack..my eyesite isn't that good..
thanks
by the way,nice pizza!
Pizza Rocks

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: cheer up
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2006, 08:26:14 AM »
syed,

I use the attach image button, when making a post. It is located under the
text area when creating a post to the forum.


i want to know how to put images in post just give me reply

syed
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Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2006, 08:28:38 AM »
hey there bolabola,

Thanks for the kind words  :)

The pizza is put directly on a pizza screen, and then right onto the oven rack.  There is no pan under
the screen.

I am confidant enough to know that the pizza will not fall through to the bottom of the oven, and have never
had this problem.  ( I am thinking that is what you may be thinking of )

I do also do pizzas directly on my stone, and have been doing that for the last year, but now I'm liking the
way my pizzas are turning out on the screen.


hey CB,
do you put a pizza pan under your screen or do you put the screen directly on the oven rack..my eyesite isn't that good..
thanks
by the way,nice pizza!
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline rscox62

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2006, 03:33:12 PM »
Canadianbacon,

What would you assume the hydration was on your pizza's.


Thanks

Rscox62

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2006, 03:40:17 PM »
Rscox62,

I will have to plead total ignorance on that one  :-[  I have no clue at all,
nor do I know how to even calcuate this.

I guess however, if somebody, ( like Peter ) had my measurements on all ingredients,
he would be able to figure it out.  However, my recipes don't fit into an exact category, so I
don't think there's anything to gain doing this. 

I like my dough though, and it's very close to Canadian style, at least Quebec style.  In my
opinion, Montreal makes far better pizza than any other province I've been to, but then again,
I'm a bit biased  :P as Montreal is my home town.


Canadianbacon,

What would you assume the hydration was on your pizza's.


Thanks

Rscox62
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Offline rscox62

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2006, 11:25:43 AM »
Canadianbacon,

What causes the glaze or "gel" to develope in the crust like the one in this thread. It is your image IMG_4920.JPG. I have been
making the Lehmann's pizza for over a year and sometimes I get the glaze and sometimes I don't. I assume it is developed due
to a high hydration dough +60% hitting the hot stone. Please advise.





P.S nice pizza.

Thanks

Rscox62
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 11:27:24 AM by rscox62 »

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2006, 11:31:39 AM »
I'm going to let Peter take this one, as I have no clue.

Peter..... h-e-l-p !  ;D


Canadianbacon,

What causes the glaze or "gel" to develope in the crust like the one in this thread. It is your image IMG_4920.JPG. I have been
making the Lehmann's pizza for over a year and sometimes I get the glaze and sometimes I don't. I assume it is developed due
to a high hydration dough +60% hitting the hot stone. Please advise.
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2006, 01:10:09 PM »
I'm going to let Peter take this one, as I have no clue.

Peter..... h-e-l-p ! 

Mark,

Since you didn't indicate what amount of flour you used it is hard to say what caused the crumb to have the gelatinized appearance shown in the photo. And when I tried using the links you provided to see more crust detail, I got "Page not Found" notices.

However, you did indicate that the dough batch you made weighed about 50 ounces, consisting of enough dough to make three 16 oz. dough balls plus an excess of 2 oz. which you divided between the three dough balls. Unless you were not paying close attention to getting exactly 2 cups of water, I calculate that you used around 31 ounces of flour. On that basis, the hydration would be around 53%. That may seem low, but it is a workable level. If the 53% figure is anywhere near correct, I think it would be hard to attribute the gelatinized crumb and airiness to the hydration level.

Rather, I think it might be because of the low salt level, the rather high amount of oil used, or possibly a bake-related matter. At 1/2 t. salt, I estimate that you used around 0.32%. That would be considered very low (1.5-2.0% is more normal) and would allow the dough to ferment faster and yield a more risen dough. Looking at the photo of the dough in the bowl, it struck me as having greater volume than one might ordinarily get with 1/2 t. IDY used with around 2 pounds of flour in the context of a cold fermented dough. Of course, if the dough spent a lot of time at room temperature, or the water temperature was high, or your mixer added a lot of heat before the dough was divided and refrigerated, any one or more of those conditions could have accounted for the increased dough volume noted in the photo.

With respect to the amount of oil you used, I estimate that it was around 4.7% of the weight of the flour. At that level, more water will be retained in the dough during baking and, along with the sugar (which I estimate was at 1.3% of the weight of the flour), you should have gotten a tender crust and crumb.

Another possible explanation for the gelatinized appearance of the crumb is that the pizzas did not bake long enough and all of the starches in the flour may not have been completely cooked. Of course, you will know it that was actually the case. I mention the possibility because pizzas baked on screens are quite often baked at much lower temperatures than pizzas baked on deck surfaces. A typical bake temperature for a screen pizza is around 435-475 degrees F. At higher temperatures, the pizza may not bake long enough to fully gelatinize the starches. That is, the top and bottom crust coloration may be very good but the center of the crust may be slightly underbaked. The presence of high amounts of oil may further impede the complete baking of the crust. If the dough was too cold when it when in the oven, that could further aggravate the situation.

I noticed from your photos and your discussion that you left the stone and tiles in the oven and preheated the oven for over an hour before loading the pizza/screen in the oven. Undoubtedly, there was some heat contribution from the preheated stone under the pizza, which could also have contributed to the final crust characteristics. As you know, some people like to use the combination of screen and stone/tiles, although you chose not to do this. In this vein, I might mention that when using a screen, you can remove the stone/tiles from your oven and preheat the oven to the desired temperature, which usually takes only 12-15 minutes. This is something you might experiment with to see if it produces equally favorable results.

Peter


Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2006, 01:53:33 PM »
Hi Peter,

Thanks for the post ( I know that took you awhile to forumlate and type out )

Lots of good info there that I would never had known about.

As for the recipe, I'm actually going to do it right now again.  I have just measured out my water,
2 cups exactly, and am going to do the recipe again in 5 mins.

I will snap a few pix along the way, and pay closer attention to everything, and I will also check
exactly how much flour I put in.  I'm going to need to write it down as I add it, as near the end of mixing
the flour in, I'm adding it in tiny amounts, until I feel it looks and feels right.

The missing images - ah yeah, I don't have a lot of space on the website I'm using so I delete images after time passes,
and thus the error message you got.   That's why I'm glad we have the ability to post here.... the images stay here forever,
and people can benefit from it.  However, I try and be selective with the images I actually post onto the forum, and try to pick the
best ones.  I take a lot of images, and many are different angles, closer, some not as close, some bad, etc, and nobody needs to see
all of them, so those I keep on the website for a month or so, and then I delete them.

Anyway, I'll post back later on with some pix I hope.  If not tonight, then tomorrow I will. 

Hmm, so you think the amount of oil is high eh ? maybe I'll drop that by a tablespoon.... I should have asked you about slight mods
to the recipe *before* I started doing it eh ?  ::) , as you are prob not sitting there ready to read this next pos.

Anywhooo, I'll do the recipe again, and then post the amount of flour I used for fun.

Mark
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2006, 02:11:41 PM »
Mark,

There is nothing wrong with the amount of oil you are using. I mentioned the amount of oil only as a possible explanation (along with others) of why the crumb looked like it did. Some people use even more than you did. It's essentially a matter of preference.

If you can weigh the flour and water, so much the better, but if you measure out the flour by volume, please indicate the method you use to measure it out. Please also note the finished dough batch weight, individual dough ball weights, and pizza size.

Peter

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2006, 02:20:34 PM »
Hi Peter,

ah ok ! okie dokie.  I'm going to measure the flour by cup, but I'm also going to measure it, so I know
exactly how many grams went in ! - good idea !, thanks for the tip !

I'll post back in a bit.

Mark
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Offline November

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2006, 03:31:27 PM »
Mark,

I mentioned in another thread that oil acts as a plasticizer in a polymeric structure.  It allows the gluten to stretch beyond what is normal without oil.  Generally speaking, your crust looks identical to my 80% hydration dough, which uses pretty much the same percentage amount of oil that you do.  I don't think it's the hydration or under-baking.  I think it's a combination of low salt (and the stage in which it is incorporated), amount of oil, and mixing/kneading technique (which corresponds in part to the salt stage, and in part the sponge-like autolyse).  By adding the salt after the flour is hydrated and the oil has formed a partial barrier, the salt has little opportunity to interfere in the polymerization.

- red.november

EDIT: Not knowing your flour amount exactly, I can't really say the amount of oil is the same percentage-wise, but you do use the same amount.  While lower percentage-wise, your amount is higher than normal, as mentioned by Peter.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 03:48:06 PM by November »

Offline November

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2006, 03:44:00 PM »
Looking at the photo of the dough in the bowl, it struck me as having greater volume than one might ordinarily get with 1/2 t.

From my October 1 post in the kneading thread: "The more the gluten is plasticized, the more hydrostatic pressure it can withstand."  Greater volume is a direct consequence of plasticized gluten because the structure can withstand more CO2 pressure before outgassing.

Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2006, 12:33:19 PM »
Well, I'm finally back with some data, and some new images  :D

On Friday, I made a double batch of dough, and measured out exactly 2 cups of water.
This time, I weighed out all the flour, and used exactly 725 grams of flour. 

What I did was measure out a cup of flour, in my measuring cup, and then I poured that into a metal measuring
bowl, and took its weight, and noted it on a piece of scrap paper.

The firs thing that really surprised me, is how *inacurrate* measuring by cup is ! , you can see the wire variety of
measurements in grams, and how vast that array of grams are, I was really amazed at how "off" guessing at what a cup
was in each cup of flour I pulled out of the bag of flour.  Wow.... now with this in mind, I will be *measuring* all my flour
in the future, as I can see that doing it by eye is just not very accurate.

Anyway, the rest of the recipe is exactly as I noted in my first post in this thread ( check way up at the top ). 

The funny thing also I found out, is that I must have used more than 2 cups of water in my original recipe, as I did NOT end up with
enough dough to make 16 oz dough balls ( I ended up with 3 galls at 14.6 oz each ) 

I have posted below the images from last night's pizza bake ( Saturday night ) but on the website link also below, you will see
image of the pizza I made on Friday night.  I have attached 8 images below, however on the website link there are a total
of 83 images.

If you wish to see some video of me slicing up some mushrooms for the pizza below, check out this link here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4171.0.html ( I used my garlic "mandoline" and wow, it worked great ! )

See all images here: http://www.detroitgrillking.com/frosty/pizza-17-18-nov/
« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 12:36:03 PM by canadianbacon »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2006, 03:55:42 PM »
Mark,

I took a stab at converting the latest iteration of your dough recipe to baker's percents, using the Lehmann dough calculating tool. Since you didn't indicate the size of your pizzas, I used 13" since I guessed (by looking at the grid spacings of your oven's rack) that you were using a 14" pizza screen with about 1/2" on each side of the pizza to spare. This is what I got for your latest dough formulation:

Mark's Dough Formulation for 3 Dough Balls
Flour (100%):            724.77 g  |  25.57 oz | 1.6 lbs
Water (63.3%):         458.78 g  |  16.18 oz | 1.01 lbs
Oil (5.79%):               41.96 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.99 tsp | 3 tbsp
Salt (.385%):             2.79 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
IDY (.208%):              1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Sugar (1.65%):          11.96 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
Total (171.333%):     1241.78 g | 43.8 oz | 2.74 lbs | TF = 0.11
Single Ball:                 413.93 g | 14.6 oz | 0.91 lbs

As you can see, when using volume measurements for flour and water, the swings can be quite wide. Your recent dough batch, for example, had a roughly 10% gain in hydration over your last dough batch, which is a lot. Were you able to tell the difference between the two dough batches, and did you prefer one over the other in terms of the finished crust?

I see also that you used your DLX mixer. How would you rate its performance over the KA mixer you previously used?

Peter


Offline canadianbacon

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2006, 12:54:02 PM »
Hi Peter,

Hey, you are good  :), I just now measured my pizza screen, and indeed it's exactly 14" !, I honestly had
no clue how large it was, anyway it's good to know.

I'm a bit puzzled about the hydration Peter, so in this recipe I used below ( the lastest one ) you are saying the
moisture content was *higher* ? so this would mean the dough was more moist ? ( is that correct ? )

I am assuming I'm understanding the meaning of "hydration" correctly, but I am not so sure now,
as this dough was actually a bit more dry when I had finished making it.  I would have perhaps not used
quite that much flour, and would cut it down maybe by 75 grams or so ( approx 1/2 a cup less )

As for my new DLX mixer, I do find I'm making a better dough, because it mixes the dough much better
than my Kitchen Aid did.  I have an older model of Kitchen Aid mixer that I don't think will accept the new and improved
model of their dough hook.

It seems this new model of KA hook is much better than the original dough hook, which I have, and also many of the
lower end KA models still get shipped with.

The other thing which is going on a slight tangent, is potential problems with not using your KA mixer for long times.
.... I used to use my KA all the time, but now I haven't used it in many months.  On another group I used to belong to,
it was discovered that leaving your KA mixer unused for lengthy amounts of time, caused oil leakage problems in the
motor area.

This actually happened to my father .... he bought a KA mixer a few years ago, and with all things new, he used it quite a bit
when he first got it, and then he stopped using it on a regular basis, in fact he had told me that there were times when 4 or 5
months went by when he hadn't even used it ! ... well, he learned first hand how the mixer doesn' t like this, and he had
oil leakage problems.

He was instructed to turn it on every week to get the oil mixed up in the gearbox, and now the oil leakage problems are gone.

Anyway, thank for any info on the hydration Peter.... by the way, is this hydration % I have here in this current recipe
a good thing ? or a bad thing ?

Thanks in advance,

Mark
Pizzamaker, Rib Smoker, HomeBrewer, there's not enough time for a real job.

Offline mivler

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Re: Very good success this past weekend - 2 pizza and lots of images
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2006, 01:40:33 PM »
It seems this new model of KA hook is much better than the original dough hook, which I have, and also many of the
lower end KA models still get shipped with.

According the KA, the only unit it would fit that does not come with it, is the Professional 6qt Stand Mixer. Any other unit it would be too large to use with and would then scrape the bowl and possibly end up causing damage to the motor.

Michael