Author Topic: Sugar and Rise?  (Read 1941 times)

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Offline JMD

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Sugar and Rise?
« on: November 06, 2006, 05:03:04 PM »
I have only been making pies for a short period of time with a very basic recipe my father handed down to me. I would like to experiment and make a better and more consistent pie and I am glad I recently found this forum. Here are my questions I could use some help on.
1. I don't add any sugar to the dough mix, why do some recipes call for this and some don't?
2. After making mix I put in covered bowel and let rise for the day, then prepare. What are the basics to rising in the frig over 2 - 3 day period?
3. Sometimes when eating my pies they have a yeasty, smeel or taste to them...what could cause this.
 Thanks for any help you can give.
Joe


Offline November

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Re: Sugar and Rise?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2006, 07:06:15 PM »
JMD,

1. Several reasons depending on the form of sugar: enhance texture, darken crust color, add sweetness, boost yeast fermentation.
2. Use a little less yeast and lower finishing temperature (temperature of dough after mixing)
3. Yeast.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Sugar and Rise?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2006, 08:10:06 AM »
Depending on the amount of sugar used, and also whether oil in sufficient quantity is also used, the sugar contributes to the tenderness of the finished crust (by retaining more of the moisture in the dough). This is part of the "texture" characteristic mentioned by November. Sugar and oil also have anti-staling, preservative qualities, which is usually not an issue with pizza that is eaten right out of the oven or as leftovers over the following day or so. This is an attribute that applies more to bread than to pizza, which is why breads made without sugar or oil, such as some classic French breads (baguettes, etc.), are best eaten shortly after being baked.

Peter

Offline vitus

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Re: Sugar and Rise?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2006, 09:35:42 AM »
3. Sometimes when eating my pies they have a yeasty, smeel or taste to them...what could cause this.
As november said; it is the yeast itself you are tasting. If you want to avoid this, then the basic solution is to use less yeast and let the dough raise longer.

Offline JMD

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Re: Sugar and Rise?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2006, 11:13:16 AM »
I just finfished reading Jeff's recipe site, found it very intresting. By the way thanks for your responses guys. I am assuming Jeff has alot of experience, I found it intresting that he says you do not need to use sugar or oil (agree, disagree, your thoughts). Who has used his recipe and how was it. I am looking for a medium crust pizza, recipe, not deep dish , but a little closer to thin crust. Also can someome give me simple steps after dough mix is done, about if you want to go the frig way, what to do. I have read several methods on this site and they all seem to have a different approach. Thanks much.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Sugar and Rise?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2006, 11:55:17 AM »
Joe,

Whether you choose to use sugar or oil in your dough recipe is pretty much a matter of preference and what you are trying to achieve as an end result. There is no need to add either for most pizza styles (I am excluding deep-dish here, which do use a lot of fat). There is enough sugar that can be extracted from the starch in the flour by enzymes to feed the yeast over a normal dough lifecycle and to provide good crust coloration. Many people add sugar to the dough because they like a sweeter crust and also to provide crust coloration. In Jeff's case, I don't think it would be a good idea to use sugar in the dough because at the extremely high oven temperatures he is using the presence of sugar in the dough can lead to excessive darkening or even burning of the bottom crust. This is less of a problem with a standard home oven provided the sugar is kept below around 2-3% (by weight of flour), or if a pizza screen is used instead of a pizza stone or tiles.

Some people add oil to the dough to improve its extensibility (it stretches easier), for taste purposes (especially when olive oil is used), some color development (at the surface), and to achieve the other textural characteristics in the finished crust as mentioned earlier.  Plus, oil, if added in sufficient quantity, provides a mouthfeel that many people like. Often, people will use oil in their doughs when they are trying to make Neapolitan style pizzas based on using Italian 00 flours and where the pizzas are to be baked in a standard home oven, not at the very high temperatures that Jeff is using. In Jeff's case, he doesn't need oil in his dough.

As for techniques for handling the dough when it comes out of the mixer, you mind find Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 of interest. The discussion there is with respect to a single dough ball. If you make enough dough for several pizzas, my preference is to divide the total dough batch into the desired number of dough balls before putting them into the refrigerator. I like to keep the gasses in the dough as much as possible, and trying to divide the dough at a later stage may work against that objective.

You might also find other tips covered in the abovereferenced thread of value in your pizza making.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 12:04:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Sugar and Rise?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2006, 12:13:40 PM »
vitus,

I said yeast half-jokingly because JMD didn't provide a quantitative adjective along with his qualitative adjective.  If you want to avoid a yeasty smell or taste, you have to avoid yeast, unless you don't have a very discerning palate.  Now if it's a really yeasty smell or taste, or too much yeastiness, I would suggest not letting the dough rise at room temperature "for the day" assuming "for the day" means all day.  I also assumed that he meant at room temperature because he didn't mention putting the dough in the refrigerator.  He only asked about the cold rise.  He didn't mention that he used it.  Using less yeast might solve the problem, but there are a couple of things that need to be known.

JMD,

For you, and those who don't already know this, one of the main flavor changes that occurs when doing a cold rise is due to bacteria.  Bacteria compete for the same food as yeast, but lose out at room temperatures.  At refrigerator temperatures, the metabolism of the yeast slow down while bacteria happily do their work at almost full speed.  A cold rise would mean a somewhat less yeasty taste.  Depending on how you cover your bowl, you could also be getting wild yeast in your dough.  Wild yeast will likely render your dough slightly sour and a little more yeasty than normal.  What kind of yeast do you use?  How much yeast do you use for how much dough?  How do you cover your bowl?  How long is "for the day?"  At what temperature are you letting your dough rise?

Jeff is right about not needing sugar or oil.  However, people don't need pizza either.  It's a matter of preference.

"I have read several methods on this site and they all seem to have a different approach."

That isn't going to change just because you're asking for steps on this thread.  I would suggest taking one procedure you've already read at a time until you find one that produces a dough you like.  Like I said before, use less yeast and make sure the temperature of the dough is lower (around 77 F) when putting the dough in the refrigerator.

- red.november

EDIT: Well, I tell you, Peter's response wasn't there when I started.  Peter is right about not even wanting sugar if you're baking at higher temperatures.  Somehow I highly doubt that's going to be a problem though.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2006, 12:17:33 PM by November »

Offline vitus

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Re: Sugar and Rise?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2006, 02:06:57 PM »
vitus,

I said yeast half-jokingly because JMD didn't provide a quantitative adjective along with his qualitative adjective.  If you want to avoid a yeasty smell or taste, you have to avoid yeast, unless you don't have a very discerning palate.  Now if it's a really yeasty smell or taste, or too much yeastiness, I would suggest not letting the dough rise at room temperature "for the day" assuming "for the day" means all day.  I also assumed that he meant at room temperature because he didn't mention putting the dough in the refrigerator.  He only asked about the cold rise.  He didn't mention that he used it.  Using less yeast might solve the problem, but there are a couple of things that need to be known.
November, your joke was crystal clear - even to a foreigner like me.   ;)
And you are right that we need a bit more information. However a lot of people tend to use way too much yeast in my eyes. They are looking for those nice big bubbles, but instead they get a very crumbly texture and too yeasty flavour - which is actually not the thing we are looking for when we bake with yeast. It is a common mistake and I'll bet my old pizza pan that JMD will get a much better pie if he uses less yeast and lets it raise longer.  :)

Offline JMD

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Re: Sugar and Rise?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2006, 06:35:08 PM »
Thanks so much for the information.
1. Yes, your rite, as far as letting it rise I usaually put it in a bowl with a sheet of wax paper over the bowl and a folded towel over that, its put hi in the room (like atop of the frig) and left to rise for about 5 to 8 hours, then quickly reneaded and preparred for pan.
2. The yeast I usaully use is Fleiscmann's Rapid Rise highly Active 1/4 oz. packets. I use 1 packet for about 3 1/2 cups of GP flour, water, pinch of salt, tbl. of oil. This is of course good for 2 balls.
3. I am going to try a batch this week with a little less yeast, and putting it in the frig for a day...does it go in the frig rite after making the dough balls or should it stay in the room for a couple hours b4 putting in frig? Does this sound like I may be on a better track? Thanks again.
Joe

Offline November

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Re: Sugar and Rise?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2006, 06:59:35 PM »
JMD,

If only for a day, try using 1/2 tsp yeast.  A whole packet of IDY is too much for that amount of dough, even for a short room temperature rise.