Author Topic: No Knead Dough  (Read 33449 times)

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Offline deb415611

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2006, 06:28:52 PM »
Tonymark,

I think the recipe and technique may be posted on the Cooking Light message boards.  I'll go check.  I have been meaning to read it also.  I'll see what I can find.

This has been a pretty wild topic everywhere.  I have seen it here, Cooking Light and on the King Arthur Baking Circle. 

Deb


Offline deb415611

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2006, 06:42:54 PM »
Tonymark - Here is the recipe copied out of the cooking light message board:



There's an interesting article in Mark Bittman's Minimalist column in the New York Times about a new technique for making a crusty yeast bread without kneading. Essentially you use only 1/4 tsp yeast, let the dough rise 18 hours, and then toss the dough in a preheated ceramic, cast iron or Pyrex pot to bake. I have started the recipe rising and am looking forward to seeing the results tomorrow.

Here's the article about the technique called The Secret of Great Bread: Let Time Do the Work:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/08/d...ing&oref=slogin

Here's the actual recipe.

Recipe: No-Knead Bread

Published: November 8, 2006
Adapted from Jim Lahey, Sullivan Street Bakery
Time: About 1½ hours plus 14 to 20 hours’ rising


3 cups all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting
¼ teaspoon instant yeast
1¼ teaspoons salt
Cornmeal or wheat bran as needed.

1. In a large bowl combine flour, yeast and salt. Add 1 5/8 cups water, and stir until blended; dough will be shaggy and sticky. Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let dough rest at least 12 hours, preferably about 18, at warm room temperature, about 70 degrees.

2. Dough is ready when its surface is dotted with bubbles. Lightly flour a work surface and place dough on it; sprinkle it with a little more flour and fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rest about 15 minutes.

3. Using just enough flour to keep dough from sticking to work surface or to your fingers, gently and quickly shape dough into a ball. Generously coat a cotton towel (not terry cloth) with flour, wheat bran or cornmeal; put dough seam side down on towel and dust with more flour, bran or cornmeal. Cover with another cotton towel and let rise for about 2 hours. When it is ready, dough will be more than double in size and will not readily spring back when poked with a finger.

4. At least a half-hour before dough is ready, heat oven to 450 degrees. Put a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot (cast iron, enamel, Pyrex or ceramic) in oven as it heats. When dough is ready, carefully remove pot from oven. Slide your hand under towel and turn dough over into pot, seam side up; it may look like a mess, but that is O.K. Shake pan once or twice if dough is unevenly distributed; it will straighten out as it bakes. Cover with lid and bake 30 minutes, then remove lid and bake another 15 to 30 minutes, until loaf is beautifully browned. Cool on a rack.

Yield: One 1½-pound loaf.

Offline mmarston

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2006, 06:46:17 PM »
This recipe is a work of staggering genius! I have never baked this type of bread before and the result was incredible!

No-Knead Bread
Adapted from Jim Lahey, Sullivan Street Bakery?Time: About 1½ hours plus 14 to 20 hours? rising

3 cups (15 oz) all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting?¼ teaspoon instant yeast?1¼ teaspoons salt?Cornmeal or wheat bran as needed.
1. In a large bowl combine flour, yeast and salt. Add 1 5/8 (13 oz) cups water, and stir until blended; dough will be shaggy and sticky. Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let dough rest at least 12 hours, preferably about 18, at warm room temperature, about 70 degrees.
2. Dough is ready when its surface is dotted with bubbles. Lightly flour a work surface and place dough on it; sprinkle it with a little more flour and fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rest about 15 minutes.
3. Using just enough flour to keep dough from sticking to work surface or to your fingers, gently and quickly shape dough into a ball. Generously coat a cotton towel (not terry cloth) with flour, wheat bran or cornmeal; put dough seam side down on towel and dust with more flour, bran or cornmeal. Cover with another cotton towel and let rise for about 2 hours. When it is ready, dough will be more than double in size and will not readily spring back when poked with a finger.
4. At least a half-hour before dough is ready, heat oven to 450 degrees. Put a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot (cast iron, enamel, Pyrex or ceramic) in oven as it heats. When dough is ready, carefully remove pot from oven. Slide your hand under towel and turn dough over into pot, seam side up; it may look like a mess, but that is O.K. Shake pan once or twice if dough is unevenly distributed; it will straighten out as it bakes. Cover with lid and bake 30 minutes, then remove lid and bake another 15 to 30 minutes, until loaf is beautifully browned. Cool on a rack.
Yield: One 1½-pound loaf.

NOTES FROM NYT FOOD FORUM

kobulnicky - 2:48 PM ET November 13, 2006 (#10921 of 10954)

Help with wet dough
I have had great success with the no-knead recipe and i am a fairly experienced home artisan baker. So ... here is some advice. ??
1. Follow the recipe the first time, no matter what bread you really like. Get to know the recipe before you vary it by flours or additives. ??
2. Weigh flour and water. Dry measurements are highly inaccurate. I use 15 oz. of flour at 5 oz per cup and 13 oz of water. ??
3. When you take the dough out of the bowl after the first rising give it a few folds (use a plastic dough scraper to help and some, but not a lot of extra flour). Then let it rest for 10 minutes. The folds and rest help to strengthen it. ??
4. After it rests, shape it. My son is a professional baker and he reminds me all the time that this step is the baker's art. Do the best you can. ??
5. Flour the towel heavily. You can always brush off excess flour when the loaf is done if needed. ??
6. Here is the biggest help. Start easy and learn before you get to the hard part. Wet dough is tricky. So ... start with 16oz flour and 12 oz of water. It will be a nice dough to work but not as tasty or stringy on the inside. Crust will be a bit harder too. But, you can manage it. Then, with practice, move each subsequent batch toward the final proportions. I'd up the water first to 13 oz and then cut the flour to 15. ??Hope this helps. ??
BTW ... using 7.5 oz white and 7.5 oz durham with a sesame seed coating on the top makes a GREAT loaf of Semolina bread. The durham also absorbs a bit more water so not quite as gooey.


Nobody cares if you can't dance well.  Just get up and dance.  Dave Barry

Offline tonymark

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2006, 06:48:56 PM »
Thank you very much
Making Pizza is not cooking, it is Performance Art!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2006, 07:48:09 PM »
It's useful for our members to keep in mind that many NYT articles can be found after they go into paid archives by doing a simple Google search. There are many people who are familiar with the NYT practice and grab the articles and post them before they go into the archive system. As an example, I did a quick Google search and found the NYT no-knead dough arricle here: http://www.metafooder.com/?p=112. Not all NYT articles find a home elsewhere, but many do.

Peter

Offline jimd

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2006, 09:23:09 AM »
Here is the text of the entire article:

INNOVATIONS in bread baking are rare. In fact, the 6,000-year-old process hasn't changed much since Pasteur made the commercial production of standardized yeast possible in 1859. The introduction of the gas stove, the electric mixer and the food processor made the process easier, faster and more reliable.

I'm not counting sliced bread as a positive step, but Jim Lahey's method may be the greatest thing since.

This story began in late September when Mr. Lahey sent an e-mail message inviting me to attend a session of a class he was giving at Sullivan Street Bakery, which he owns, at 533 West 47th Street in Manhattan. His wording was irresistible: ''I'll be teaching a truly minimalist breadmaking technique that allows people to make excellent bread at home with very little effort. The method is surprisingly simple -- I think a 4-year-old could master it -- and the results are fantastic.''

I set up a time to visit Mr. Lahey, and we baked together, and the only bad news is that you cannot put your 4-year-old to work producing bread for you. The method is complicated enough that you would need a very ambitious 8-year-old. But the results are indeed fantastic.

Mr. Lahey's method is striking on several levels. It requires no kneading. (Repeat: none.) It uses no special ingredients, equipment or techniques. It takes very little effort.

It accomplishes all of this by combining a number of unusual though not unheard of features. Most notable is that you'll need about 24 hours to create a loaf; time does almost all the work. Mr. Lahey's dough uses very little yeast, a quarter teaspoon (you almost never see a recipe with less than a teaspoon), and he compensates for this tiny amount by fermenting the dough very slowly. He mixes a very wet dough, about 42 percent water, which is at the extreme high end of the range that professional bakers use to create crisp crust and large, well-structured crumb, both of which are evident in this loaf.

The dough is so sticky that you couldn't knead it if you wanted to. It is mixed in less than a minute, then sits in a covered bowl, undisturbed, for about 18 hours. It is then turned out onto a board for 15 minutes, quickly shaped (I mean in 30 seconds), and allowed to rise again, for a couple of hours. Then it's baked. That's it.

I asked Harold McGee, who is an amateur breadmaker and best known as the author of ''On Food and Cooking'' (Scribner, 2004), what he thought of this method. His response: ''It makes sense. The long, slow rise does over hours what intensive kneading does in minutes: it brings the gluten molecules into side-by-side alignment to maximize their opportunity to bind to each other and produce a strong, elastic network. The wetness of the dough is an important piece of this because the gluten molecules are more mobile in a high proportion of water, and so can move into alignment easier and faster than if the dough were stiff.''

That's as technical an explanation as I care to have, enough to validate what I already knew: Mr. Lahey's method is creative and smart.

But until this point, it's not revolutionary. Mr. McGee said he had been kneading less and less as the years have gone by, relying on time to do the work for him. Charles Van Over, author of the authoritative book on food-processor dough making, ''The Best Bread Ever'' (Broadway, 1997), long ago taught me to make a very wet dough (the food processor is great at this) and let it rise slowly. And, as Mr. Lahey himself notes, ''The Egyptians mixed their batches of dough with a hoe.''

What makes Mr. Lahey's process revolutionary is the resulting combination of great crumb, lightness, incredible flavor -- long fermentation gives you that -- and an enviable, crackling crust, the feature of bread that most frequently separates the amateurs from the pros. My bread has often had thick, hard crusts, not at all bad, but not the kind that shatter when you bite into them. Producing those has been a bane of the amateur for years, because it requires getting moisture onto the bread as the crust develops.

To get that kind of a crust, professionals use steam-injected ovens. At home I have tried brushing the dough with water (a hassle and ineffective); spraying it (almost as ineffective and requiring frequent attention); throwing ice cubes on the floor of the oven (not good for the oven, and not far from ineffective); and filling a pot with stones and preheating it, then pouring boiling water over the stones to create a wet sauna (quite effective but dangerous, physically challenging and space-consuming). I was discouraged from using La Cloche, a covered stoneware dish, by my long-standing disinclination to crowd my kitchen with inessential items that accomplish only one chore. I was discouraged from buying a $5,000 steam-injected oven by its price.

It turns out there's no need for any of this. Mr. Lahey solves the problem by putting the dough in a preheated covered pot -- a common one, a heavy one, but nothing fancy. For one loaf he used an old Le Creuset enameled cast iron pot; for another, a heavy ceramic pot. (I have used cast iron with great success.) By starting this very wet dough in a hot, covered pot, Mr. Lahey lets the crust develop in a moist, enclosed environment. The pot is in effect the oven, and that oven has plenty of steam in it. Once uncovered, a half-hour later, the crust has time to harden and brown, still in the pot, and the bread is done. (Fear not. The dough does not stick to the pot any more than it would to a preheated bread stone.)

The entire process is incredibly simple, and, in the three weeks I've been using it, absolutely reliable. Though professional bakers work with consistent flour, water, yeast and temperatures, and measure by weight, we amateurs have mostly inconsistent ingredients and measure by volume, which can make things unpredictable. Mr. Lahey thinks imprecision isn't much of a handicap and, indeed, his method seems to iron out the wrinkles: ''I encourage a somewhat careless approach,'' he says, ''and figure this may even be a disappointment to those who expect something more difficult. The proof is in the loaf.''

The loaf is incredible, a fine-bakery quality, European-style boule that is produced more easily than by any other technique I've used, and will blow your mind. (It may yet change the industry. Mr. Lahey is experimenting with using it on a large scale, but although it requires far less electricity than conventional baking, it takes a lot of space and time.) It is best made with bread flour, but all-purpose flour works fine. (I've played with whole-wheat and rye flours, too; the results are fantastic.)

You or your 8-year-old may hit this perfectly on the first try, or you may not. Judgment is involved; with practice you'll get it right every time.

The baking itself is virtually foolproof, so the most important aspect is patience. Long, slow fermentation is critical. Mr. Lahey puts the time at 12 to 18 hours, but I have had much greater success at the longer time. If you are in a hurry, more yeast (three-eighths of a teaspoon) or a warmer room temperature may move things along, but really, once you're waiting 12 hours why not wait 18? Similarly, Mr. Lahey's second rising can take as little as an hour, but two hours, or even a little longer, works better.

Although even my ''failed'' loaves were as good as those from most bakeries, to make the loaf really sensational requires a bit of a commitment. But with just a little patience, you will be rewarded with the best no-work bread you have ever made. And that's no small thing.

No-Knead Bread
Adapted from Jim Lahey, Sullivan Street Bakery
Time: About 1 1/2 hours plus 14 to 20 hours' rising

3 cups all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting
1/4 teaspoon instant yeast
1 1/4 teaspoons salt
Cornmeal or wheat bran as needed.

1. In a large bowl combine flour, yeast and salt. Add 1 5/8 cups water, and stir until blended; dough will be shaggy and sticky. Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let dough rest at least 12 hours, preferably about 18, at warm room temperature, about 70 degrees.
2. Dough is ready when its surface is dotted with bubbles. Lightly flour a work surface and place dough on it; sprinkle it with a little more flour and fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rest about 15 minutes.
3. Using just enough flour to keep dough from sticking to work surface or to your fingers, gently and quickly shape dough into a ball. Generously coat a cotton towel (not terry cloth) with flour, wheat bran or cornmeal; put dough seam side down on towel and dust with more flour, bran or cornmeal. Cover with another cotton towel and let rise for about 2 hours. When it is ready, dough will be more than double in size and will not readily spring back when poked with a finger.
4. At least a half-hour before dough is ready, heat oven to 450 degrees. Put a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot (cast iron, enamel, Pyrex or ceramic) in oven as it heats. When dough is ready, carefully remove pot from oven. Slide your hand under towel and turn dough over into pot, seam side up; it may look like a mess, but that is O.K. Shake pan once or twice if dough is unevenly distributed; it will straighten out as it bakes. Cover with lid and bake 30 minutes, then remove lid and bake another 15 to 30 minutes, until loaf is beautifully browned. Cool on a rack.

Yield: One 1 1/2-pound loaf.


Jim



Offline charbo

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2006, 05:30:38 PM »
This process definitely worked for me.  My 4.5 qt Lecreuset pot might be a little small for the recipe.  If you want a boule, it’s the way to go.  By leaving the seam side up, no slashing is required.  However, I think one loses a little of the rise when dumping the risen dough into the hot pot. 

What about the implications for pizza?  I just made a flavorful pizza using less yeast and and allowing the dough to rise longer at a low room temp.  The pizza had virtually no kneading.  Using a spoon in one direction, I wet-mixed about 75% of the flour and all the water for 2-3 minutes, then incorporated the remaining flour over another 1-2 minutes. Then it rested for 25 minutes. I then folded in a little oil and turned the dough out on a floured board.  I kneaded by hand for about a minute, adding the salt, distributing the oil, and adding very little more flour.  The cooked pizza had the same rise as ones made with a traditional kneading.  It’s almost like mixing (stirring) is a very efficient way of kneading.

It seems I’ve wasted a lot of time kneading.  There is a book by Suzanne Dunaway called No Need to Knead which bears review.



Offline jimd

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2006, 06:25:35 PM »
Per the immediately succeeding post, after reading about this technique and trying it, I did a little more research on the net about the "no knead" technique. I came across the book "No Knead Bread", and ordered it from Amazon. I think it is out of print, but differant resellers had copies in stock.

I started looking at it today and it is a lovely book. Easy to read and she is a total supporter of the no knead technique. The book has some great looking recipes that I can't wait to try. Her attitude is one of "just do it", and if you put some of your soul into it, your results will be great.

I will post more about my thoughts on the book and results with the recipes when I get a bit further into it.

Jim

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2006, 07:44:42 PM »
The very high hydration is what makes this work for no knead... the stands of gluten align themselves apparantly very easily and don't require the kneading that a dense dough requires to for the gluten tough enough for the "great push" when baking... The steam and long proofing do the great rise. I have french videos showing the baguette techniques etc... very precise recipes and handling of the dough. In the videos during the dough process after proofing the dough... they instruct you to pour/dump out the dough from the container and pull or stretch the dough in one direction then fold it over onto itself thus aligning the gluten strands and making the dough even more resilient and pliable which gives that great chew with a light texture. Again this is all about how to handle the dough..
I do believe that when we plop the dough into the hot pot we do loose some of the light and airy consistency of the dough we so hard at trying to get to rise high with great flavor. I'm trying to look into using a low sided iron or ceramic pot where I can transfer the dough gently into the vessel without the "plop" from up high thus not deflating the dough from a high drop. Any suggestions would be great

Offline deb415611

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2006, 08:16:45 PM »
Here is a good link.  Rose Levy Beranbaum (The Bread Bible) has baked the bread and written on her blog about it with pictures.  There are also many comments from her readers with questions about the bread that she has answered. 

http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2006/11/holy_bread.html#more
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 08:48:36 PM by deb415611 »


Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2006, 10:06:57 AM »
This was a great link thanks for sharing...

Offline tonymark

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2006, 11:04:11 PM »
Here is my attempt.  1.5x recipe with 1/4 IDY and 2 Tbsp of camaldoli culture.  Cooked in Lodge cast iron dutch oven.  Next attempt with be with fresh ground whole wheat, white winter (i.e. white wheat).
Making Pizza is not cooking, it is Performance Art!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2006, 11:11:16 PM »
TM,

Were you satisfied with the results?

Peter

Offline tonymark

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2006, 11:21:33 PM »
Were you satisfied with the results?

Yes, the bread was good.  I have recently been playing with a high hydration bread dough bake in a round cake pan.  So, this was on par with that except I did not have to inject the steam/water or knead the dough.  I made this for some family and friends and it was a big hit.  One of my guests took home the recipe and made their dough tonight!  I will make this bread regularly.

BTW, I think the IDY overshadowed the culture flavor.  Maybe I am spoiled and can no longer taste the culture, but I just could not detect it.  I usually use the Patsy's culture, which seems more sour and stronger in flavor.

TM
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Offline REMOISE

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2006, 05:28:36 AM »
finally got it right although my crust separated from the bread due over rising because of 3 hours of rising time instead of 2 hours given in the recipe.Which I can avoid next time.It produce a great crust and good structure inside and remained moist.This time i threw into a blazing hot pot;I think the other time the pot was simply just not hot enough.This method for home bakers is really great.In other words wetter dough really does not need too much kneading time.Also The overnight fermantation at room temperature gives the bread or pizza the aroma and flavour.I suggest not cutting the bread until it cools of to avoid it getting gummy.Can anyone please help me how do i avoid the crust from cracking.I notice that when i remove a loaf from the oven and let it cool on a wire rack about 30 minutes later the crust starts to crack.help anyone please?
thanks,
Remoise
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 11:47:35 AM by REMOISE »

Offline deb415611

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2006, 07:27:29 AM »
Here is my first attempt.  3/4 KASL & rest KA AP.  I used a silpat instead of towel on the bottom.  I think it helped with the transfer to the pan since the silpat was a little more stable than the towel.  I used 5 qt Simply Calphalon pot (Something heavier would have been better - LeCreuset will be on Xmas list)  I coated with semolina & sesame seeds.  Baked 450 for 30 min covered and about 10 min uncovered  - internal temp was 209.

It was good and definately a keeper but I want to experiment a little.  Holes were bigger farther into loaf.  I think yeast might be able to be cut down when making with white flour.  It was fully risen & bubbled after 10 hours (when I got up in am so I don't know how long it had been like that).  I let it go another 4 hours.

Next time I will make with white whole wheat.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 07:56:26 AM by deb415611 »

Offline deb415611

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2006, 08:01:49 AM »
The topic has also hit Peter Reinhart's blog. 

http://peterreinhart.typepad.com/


Offline fabio

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2006, 05:10:19 PM »
Anyone care to guess how much starter I should use to be equivilent to a .25 teaspoon as this recipie calls for?  -marc

I would use about 12gr. Here's how I got to that:

1 packet of yeast ~= 2 cups of starter
1 packet of yeast ~= 1tbsp ~= 3tsp
each cup of starter weighs ~ 140gr
1/4 tsp ~= 0.0833 of a tablespoon
0.0833 tbsp of yeast * 140gr per cup = 11.67gr (make it an even 12)

As a starter is not nearly as fast as commercial yeast, give it more time to rise, at least 24 hours for this recipe (I think the recipe calls for 18?). Luckily you've made this with commercial yeast before, so you know how it is supposed to look when fully risen. I guarantee you it will make a chewier, tastier and fresh-for-longer-er bread. Not to mention an event better crumb.

Also, you should correct the recipe to take out the flour/water that you are adding via the starter. Although I don't think it will make any impact on this loose recipe with so little starter.

The pics look great by the way. I'm on a low-carb diet right now, so I hate you.   >:(


Offline tonymark

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2006, 07:27:20 PM »
I am actually sick of pizza these days ... so here is more bread.

This is 1.5 the original recipe with extra salt.

637 g flour   (22.5 oz)  half KABF/half fresh ground White Winter Wheat
552 g water (19.5 oz)
2 t Morton's kosher salt
1 t vital wheat gluten
50 g of Camadoli starter

Rose about 17 hours at 67-72 F.  That includes the final 2 hours once folded.

Cooked at 450 F in Lodge cast iron dutch oven.

This bread had a very good sourdough bread flavor, but not the extreme sour I have achieved with other breads.


TM
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Offline AKSteve

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Re: No Knead Dough
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2006, 01:08:10 AM »
I was about to ask if you made a mistake in the amount of water you used, as it's around 86.5% hydration. But I just made my own batch of 50% KABF / 50% Arrowhead Mills whole wheat bread flour and I had to add quite a bit of water to the mix to get it to the right consistency. I started off with 75% water and probably wound up at around the same % as you did. The first time I tried this, I followed the recipe as written and wound up with soupy batter that was really hard to work with. This time I made 2 loafs, one as mentioned above and one with all KABF. For the 2nd one, I used 1lb (454 grams) of KABF and a little over 340g of water (just over 75% hydration).

I'm going to follow the recommendation to place the towel over a pan with edges for the 2nd rise. This is to keep things from spreading out beyond the diameter of the cooking pot and also to force the dough to rise upward. I'm also going to put a little less flour on the towel before I dump the dough onto it. I wound up with way too much flour all over my bread once it was in the pan.

Steve