No Knead Dough

[Pete-zza]

Bill,

Thank you. Breads with a lot of things in them are likely to be on the dense side in general. That was one of the reasons why I used an autolyse and added some vital wheat gluten. In retrospect, maybe I should added even more VWG since that is sometimes recommended for even high protein flours, including whole wheat flour. I noticed that Nancy Silverton, in her book Breads from the La Brea Bakery, uses fresh yeast in some of her doughs to which a lot of things are added. She also uses much more starter than I did--something close to 35% by weight of flour for a basic white sourdough loaf if memory serves me correct. She also cautioned against adding walnuts to a dough early in the process because of chemical reactions with the walnuts that can result in a crumb with an unattractive purple color. That's why I tried to leave as much out of the dough as possible until the last minute (just before the final rise). I even wondered about doing the same with the barley malt syrup but I figured it would be food for the yeast and shouldn't hurt anything. Plus, it's easier to blend the syrup into the dough when it is wet. In many respects, I felt like I was "engineering" a dough rather than "making" it  .

I'm afraid I don't have an answer to your question on humidity. November may have the answer to that question since he also has a ThermoKool unit (he's the one who brought it to my attention) and I believe he has been running some tests on his unit.

Peter

[Bryan S]

Here's a sourdough version i found at sourdoughs international.

NO-KNEAD SOURDOUGH

After Mark Bittman's feature in the New York Times (November 8, 2006) on Jim Lahey's no-knead bread, I received many inquires asking if it is possible to make no-knead sourdough. It took just one look at Lahey's recipe to focus on the 12 hour "rest". It seemed pretty obvious.  Lactobacilli in a sourdough culture "fermenting" for 12 hours should produce a far better flavor than ¼ teaspoon of instant yeast and no lactobacilli. It is only necessary to modify the recipe for the extra flour and water added by the sourdough culture. Here's what it looks like.

Recipe (see note)
Produces one 1½ pound loaf
1 cup fully active sourdough culture
440 grams (3 cups) all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting
1 cup water
1½ teaspoons salt
 

1) In a large bowl briefly combine sourdough culture, flour, water and salt.  The consistency should be very firm and shaggy.  Cover bowl with plastic wrap and proof 12-18 hours at about 70° F.  At 70-75 degrees the bread leavens well and has the distinct sourness and flavor of sourdough.  At more than 75 degrees the dough becomes too acidic which inhibits the wild yeast and leavens poorly. At much less than 70 degrees the dough leavens well but has a mild flavor.
 
2) After the 12-18 hour fermentation this is very sticky dough. Use a plastic spatula to ease it away from the edges of the bowl onto a lightly floured board.  Sprinkle the surface with additional flour and let the dough rest 15 minutes or so.
 
3) With minimal handling and additional flour (not more than ¼ cup) form a ball which is placed directly in the baking container to rise (or placed between cotton cloths as described by Lahey) and proofed until ready to bake, double in bulk (about 4 hours).  The baking container can be almost any small covered pot (avoid willow baskets since the sticky dough is difficult to remove).
 
4) Lahey bakes the dough in an oven and container both preheated to 450° for approximately 1 hour. To obtain better oven spring place the risen dough in its container in a cool oven, set the oven at 450°, turn it on and bake for approximately 1 hour and 10 minutes.  You will never knead a better sourdough!

Note:  In developing the above recipe, I used our Original San Francisco culture. There are several additional recipes for no-knead sourdoughs in the section on batter breads in Classic Sourdoughs.

[Pete-zza]

Brian,

As I understand what you posted, Ed Wood adds one cup of starter to 440 grams of all-purpose flour, one cup of water, and 1 ½ teaspoons salt. I assume that one can use either the liquid starter or the sponge starter as he describes them in his book, although using the latter will require using less flour in the final mix in order to compensate for the lower water content of the sponge starter. On the assumption that he means using the liquid starter which, according to the appendix in his book, weighs around 9 ounces for a cup and has a water content of 52%, I was able to calculate the baker’s percents and total dough batch weight and to run the numbers through the new Preferment calculating tool. By so doing, I came up with the following:

Total Formula: Flour (100%): Water (65.6493%): Salt (1.4844%): Total (167.1337%): Preferment: Flour: Water: Total: Final Dough: Flour: Water: Salt: Preferment: Total:

562.49 g  |  19.84 oz | 1.24 lbs 369.27 g  |  13.03 oz | 0.81 lbs 8.35 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp 940.1 g | 33.16 oz | 2.07 lbs | TF = N/A     122.52 g | 4.32 oz | 0.27 lbs 132.73 g | 4.68 oz | 0.29 lbs 255.26 g | 9 oz | 0.56 lbs   439.96 g | 15.52 oz | 0.97 lbs 236.53 g | 8.34 oz | 0.52 lbs 8.35 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp 255.26 g | 9 oz | 0.56 lbs 940.1 g | 33.16 oz | 2.07 lbs  | TF = N/A

Although not indicated in the above data, the amount of starter used is 45.38% of the weight of the total formula flour. That amount appears to be typical for a sourdough bread. Interestingly, the total hydration is around 66%, which appears to be quite a bit lower than what others have been using when making the No Knead dough. Ed normally uses around 58% total hydration as his ideal figure.

You will also note that the amount of salt was not increased from the original 1 ½ teaspoons. That means that the percent of salt went down (to about 1.48%) once the salt-less starter was added to the remaining ingredients. So, if one wishes to retain the original baker’s percent for salt, I would use around 1.9%. The above data do not reflect any adjustments for dough losses during preparation. However, since the starter was added to an already existing dough formulation, any losses will not materially affect the final results.

Peter

[fazzari]

I've been playing around with the no knead method to make pizza for the last month now.  I started with a 24 hour fermentation and worked up to 36 hours.  Although the pizza was very flavorfull it wasn't what I was looking for...so I tried some modifications.  I now ferment for 24 to 32 hours, but I fold the dough about 4 times during this period.  It gives the dough much better body, it is very easy to work with, and has a fabulous texture when cooked in a deck oven...in fact, its one of the best I've ever tasted.

The interesting thing about this process is:  It would be very, very easy to make huge batches even if you only used your hands to mix.  The original mix time on my kitchenaid is only about 4 minutes, so I can't imagine it taking much more that 8 to 10 minutes by hand.  And the folding is a 30 second process at most..  I know it's not no Knead...but it's pretty close to great pizza with no work at all!!

Hi gluten flour   100%
Water               66%
Olive oil              3%
Instant yeast       extremely small pinch   (sorry, I didn't have ability to weigh this)
salt                    2%

John

[mmarston]

I finally got around to trying a different method for baking this bread. I was looking for a way to avoid the always exciting task of picking up the very wet dough and trying to drop it into a very hot pot without making a mess out of it or burning myself.

I preheated the oven with a pizza stone in the lower part of the oven and an uncovered dutch oven on a rack above it.

When the dough was ready to bake I put it  on a peel with parchment paper, slid it onto the stone and covered it with the upside down pot. Baked as usual removing the pot for the last 15 min or so.

Worked like a charm!

[MTPIZZA]

Has anyone tried just putting the final dough into a cool pot and a hot oven. Again avoiding burning ones hands and deflating the dough when it plops into the hot pot. I would think that if you just shape the final dough and put it into a cool pot for the final rise, then put it into a hot oven, you would not burn yourself or make a mess with flour flying all over, plus get a slow nice rise as the pot heats up -- thus resulting in a lighter airier final result... any thoughts? I haven't tried my theory yet..

[Bill/SFNM]

Has anyone tried just putting the final dough into a cool pot and a hot oven. Again avoiding burning ones hands and deflating the dough when it plops into the hot pot. I would think that if you just shape the final dough and put it into a cool pot for the final rise, then put it into a hot oven, you would not burn yourself or make a mess with flour flying all over, plus get a slow nice rise as the pot heats up -- thus resulting in a lighter airier final result... any thoughts? I haven't tried my theory yet..

I'm just speculating since I am firmly in the "yes-knead" school of bread making, but I think the formation of the crust would be negatively affected. There is a delicate balance between retarding crust formation to give the crumb plenty of time to expand vs. giving the outside enough heat to dry out and form a thin, crispy crust.

Bill/SFNM

[mmarston]

Post 61 describes a method of baking the bread starting with a cool pot and oven.
Has anyone tried this?

[Bryan S]

Post 61 describes a method of baking the bread starting with a cool pot and oven.
Has anyone tried this?

Not with the no knead dough but I have used this method before with regular bread dough recipes. It gives you a little more rise out of the dough.

[bsherrill]

Well, this is my first post guys.  After lurking and learning from all of you for months (and making great pizzas also), I thought you might like this recipe and tips on no-knead bread from Cooks Illustrated and how they do it.  Be sure to check out their method of transferring the bread to the hot container, as this solves a lot of problems.  Bread is my other love, besides pizza and slow smoked BBQ, and this no knead recipe is much more flavorable than the original, in my opinion (plus a LOT easier to work with), so I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Ben

No-Knead Bread 2.0

Written: Jan 2008
 
A no-fuss recipe that is revolutionizing home baking trades flavor and reliability for ease. Could we improve the bread's bland taste and make it rise high every time?

The Problem: A no-knead approach to bread baking can produce loaves that look like they've been baked in a professional bakery, but the bread varies in size and shape and the crumb lacks the complex yeasty, tangy flavor of a true artisanal loaf.

The Goal: We loved the ease of this approach and the extraordinary crust on the bread, but we wanted our loaves to have a consistent shape and deeper flavor.

The Solution: No-knead bread is easy because it eliminates kneading, the mechanical process that forms the gluten (a strong network of cross-linked proteins that traps air bubbles and stretches as the dough bakes) necessary for bread structure. Our starting recipe (first published in the New York Times) uses two approaches to replace kneading: a very high hydration level (85 percent—meaning that for every 10 ounces of flour, there are 8.5 ounces of water) and a 12-hour autolysis period that allows the flour to hydrate and rest, (see "What is Autolysis" for further discussion). A preheated Dutch oven creates a humid environment that gives the loaf a dramatic opened crumb structure and shatteringly crisp crust, (see "Baking in a Dutch Oven" for a full explanation of how this works). However, we found two significant problems: the loaf often deflated when carried to the pot, causing misshapen loaves, and the loaf lacked flavor. We first needed to give the dough more strength. We did so by lowering the hydration and giving the bread the bare minimum of kneading time (15 seconds) to compensate. We also figured out a way to transfer the bread without doing any harm. To solve the lack of flavor, we needed to introduce two elements that a starter adds to artisan breads: an acidic tang and a shot of yeasty flavor. White vinegar generated the tang and a mild-flavored lager contributed yeastiness, see "How Beer Boosts Bread's Flavor", See links to related articles in the right-hand column.

 Almost No-Knead Bread 
An enameled cast-iron Dutch oven with a tight-fitting lid yields best results, but the recipe also works in a regular cast-iron Dutch oven or heavy stockpot. Use a mild-flavored lager, such as Budweiser (mild non-alcoholic lager also works). The bread is best eaten the day it is baked but can be wrapped in aluminum foil and stored in a cool, dry place for up to 2 days.

Makes 1 large round loaf

3   cups unbleached all-purpose flour (15 ounces), plus additional for dusting work surface
1/4   teaspoon instant or rapid-rise yeast 
1 1/2   teaspoons table salt 
3/4   cup plus 2 tablespoons water (7 ounces), at room temperature
1/4   cup plus 2 tablespoons mild-flavored lager (3 ounces)
1   tablespoon white vinegar 

1. Whisk flour, yeast, and salt in large bowl. Add water, beer, and vinegar. Using rubber spatula, fold mixture, scraping up dry flour from bottom of bowl until shaggy ball forms. Cover bowl with plastic wrap and let sit at room temperature for 8 to 18 hours.

2. Lay 12- by 18-inch sheet of parchment paper inside 10-inch skillet and spray with nonstick cooking spray. Transfer dough to lightly floured work surface and knead 10 to 15 times. Shape dough into ball by pulling edges into middle. Transfer dough, seam-side down, to parchment-lined skillet and spray surface of dough with nonstick cooking spray. Cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rise at room temperature until dough has doubled in size and does not readily spring back when poked with finger, about 2 hours.

3. About 30 minutes before baking, adjust oven rack to lowest position, place 6- to 8-quart heavy-bottomed Dutch oven (with lid) on rack, and heat oven to 500 degrees. Lightly flour top of dough and, using razor blade or sharp knife, make one 6-inch-long, 1/2-inch-deep slit along top of dough. Carefully remove pot from oven and remove lid. Pick up dough by lifting parchment overhang and lower into pot (let any excess parchment hang over pot edge). Cover pot and place in oven. Reduce oven temperature to 425 degrees and bake covered for 30 minutes. Remove lid and continue to bake until loaf is deep brown and instant-read thermometer inserted into center registers 210 degrees, 20 to 30 minutes longer. Carefully remove bread from pot; transfer to wire rack and cool to room temperature, about 2 hours.

[sourdough girl]

Thanks for posting the Cook's Illustrated recipe, bsherrill (you beat me to it!) and welcome to the forums!

I tried this recipe almost as soon as my copy of the magazine arrived in my mailbox!  I have a large Le Creuset dutch oven (12+ lbs!) that worked perfectly.  The bread had great oven spring and browned beautifully.  With the addition of beer and vinegar, it was flavorful but not as tangy as a true sourdough.  Not a big surprise considering there's no culture used.  I was very happy with the results and am going to make another loaf for our traditional Christmas Eve dinner... bouillabaisse!  Slathered with garlic butter and stuck under the broiler, it will make a great replacement for the usual french bread we use to sop up the soup!

The parchment paper technique worked well... I was very pleased with that solution!  I will take a picture of the next loaf and add it to this thread.  I have not tried putting dough into a cold pot or oven, but might try that after the holidays to see what the differences might be.

~sd

[mmarston]

I just tried this new recipe today and it is definitely a superior method. The parchment trick is the best.
I added an ounce of water to bring the hydration closer to the original. The bread was was much more ball shaped than my previous attempts.

Michael

[Pete-zza]

There is an update at the New York Times on the No-Knead dough, at http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/08/dining/08mini.html.

October 8, 2008
The Minimalist
No-Knead Bread: Not Making Itself Yet, but a Lot Quicker
By MARK BITTMAN

WHEN I first wrote about Jim Lahey’s no-knead bread almost two years ago, I could not have predicted its immediate and wild popularity. How many novices it attracted to bread baking is anyone’s guess. But certainly there were plenty of existing bread bakers who excitedly tried it, liked it and immediately set about trying to improve it.

I was among them. I wondered how the recipe of Mr. Lahey, who owns the Sullivan Street Bakery, could be made faster (it calls for 14 to 20 hours’ rising time) and with a higher percentage of whole grain.

Improving on its texture and taste, with my limited patience, energy and equipment, seemed impossible. Besides, I was satisfied with the consistent results of the original, so why mess around?

Still, there was the issue of time. I like the leisurely pace of Mr. Lahey’s bread, but I can’t always plan so far ahead. Getting the start-to-finish time down to a few hours seemed worth a try and, really, the solution was simple: use more yeast.

I knew Mr. Lahey wouldn’t approve of this, because he believes that the best bread is fermented slowly, with a minimum of yeast. But my shortcut recipe here, which requires just four and half hours’ rising, if not quite as good as the original, can be done in an afternoon. I now make it regularly.

Changing the profile of the bread’s ingredients proved to be a real challenge. I like a white bread with a shattering crust as much as the next person, but there are many good reasons to eat real whole grain bread at least part of the time. After much experimenting, mess and disappointment, I found that a real whole grain bread could indeed be produced without kneading. The crust has toughness but not the real crispness that is the trademark of breads containing most or all white flour.

The process requires a standard loaf pan or the bread will not rise. The result is wonderful: you can use 100 percent whole grains, you can vary their percentages all you want (though all-rye bread doesn’t rise much at all) and you can add nongrain flours, sweeteners or dairy pretty much at will. If the proportions of liquid, solid and yeast stay the same, the timing and results will be fairly consistent.

I haven’t shown this bread to Mr. Lahey, who, in fairness, has been encouraging. It’s likely that when he gets around to producing a whole grain loaf, it’ll be better than mine. But I don’t think it could be easier.

Recipe
Speedy No-Knead Bread
Time: About 1 hour, plus 4 1/2 hours’ resting


3 cups bread flour

1 packet ( 1/4 ounce) instant yeast

1 1/2 teaspoons salt

Oil as needed.


1. Combine flour, yeast and salt in a large bowl. Add 1 1/2 cups water and stir until blended; dough will be shaggy. Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let dough rest about 4 hours at warm room temperature, about 70 degrees.

2. Lightly oil a work surface and place dough on it; fold it over on itself once or twice. Cover loosely with plastic wrap and let rest 30 minutes more.

3. At least a half-hour before dough is ready, heat oven to 450 degrees. Put a 6- to 8-quart heavy covered pot (cast iron, enamel, Pyrex or ceramic) in oven as it heats. When dough is ready, carefully remove pot from oven. Slide your hand under dough and put it into pot, seam side up. Shake pan once or twice if dough is unevenly distributed; it will straighten out as it bakes.

4. Cover with lid and bake 30 minutes, then remove lid and bake another 15 to 30 minutes, until loaf is beautifully browned. Cool on a rack.

Yield: 1 big loaf.


Recipe
Fast No-Knead Whole Wheat Bread
Time: About 1 hour, plus 5 hours’ resting


2 cups whole wheat flour

1/2 cup whole rye flour

1/2 cup coarse cornmeal

1 teaspoon instant yeast

1 1/2 teaspoons salt

Oil as needed.


1. Combine flours, cornmeal, yeast and salt in a large bowl. Add 1 1/2 cups water and stir until blended; dough will be shaggy. Cover bowl with plastic wrap. Let dough rest about 4 hours at warm room temperature, about 70 degrees.

2. Oil a standard loaf pan (8 or 9 inches by 4 inches; nonstick works well). Lightly oil your hands and shape dough into a rough rectangle. Put it in pan, pressing it out to the edges. Brush top with a little more oil. Cover with plastic wrap and let rest 1 hour more.

3. Preheat oven to 350 degrees. Bake bread about 45 minutes, or until loaf reaches an internal temperature of 210 degrees. Remove bread from pan and cool on a rack.

Yield: 1 loaf.

[kiwipete]

Here is my Sourdough No Knead version:

Recipe:

450 grs White, organic flour
346 grs water
9 grs of salt
15 grs of active starter (I use either Camaldoli or Ischia) (I don't really weigh this anymore - one good, goopy tablespoon is good enough)

Method:

Mix all ingredients together, place in bowl, cover with wrap and ferment for 18-22 hours. (room temp)
Scrape out of ball onto a flour dusted surface and do a "fold" . I found this video (not mine) demonstrating the folding technique on Google

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7644227501824728817

.
Place the balled dough gently onto some baking paper and place back into bowl and let rise for another 2 hours.
Place Dutch oven into oven and preheat to 220 C. (for at least half an hour)
When ready to bake, remove lid from Dutch oven and gently lift the ball of dough by the parchment paper out of the bowl and into the Dutch oven (trying not to burn yourself in the process is a good idea..) Put lid on Dutch oven, turn oven down to 200C and cook for 30 minutes.
Then "crack" the lid of the Dutch oven open so its slightly ajar and cook for another 15 minutes.

For optional additional browning I then take the Dutch oven out of the oven, remove the bread and the baking paper and place the bread back in the oven for another 10 minutes or so.

[mmarston]

New version from a story on NPR.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102124561

The book it's from.

Kneadlessly Simple: Fabulous, Fuss-Free, No-Knead Breads by Nancy Baggett

The text did not copy well so you'll have to do it yourself.

[pcampbell]

Does this sound about right for the recipe.  I hate converting non bakers % back to bakers %!!!

Flour (100%): Water (85%): IDY (.18%): Salt (1.5%): Total (186.68%):

425.22 g  |  15 oz | 0.94 lbs 361.44 g  |  12.75 oz | 0.8 lbs 0.77 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 6.38 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 793.8 g | 28 oz | 1.75 lbs | TF = N/A

[Pete-zza]

Patrick,

There are several versions of the no knead dough recipe in this thread. Which one are you trying to convert?

Peter

[pcampbell]

Hi, thanks.  I guess just the basic one, that was given by Jim Lahey.

I also wonder what size would be the right pot for a 1.75# finished "dough ball" ?

How do commercial bakeries do these, if not with dutch ovens.  I imagine if they free formed them, they would expand out, instead of up?

[Pete-zza]

Patrick,

The original recipe was recited in volume measurements and no weight equivalents were given. The original ingredients are 3 cups of A-P or bread flour (plus more for dusting), 1/4 t. IDY, 1 1/4 t. salt, and 1 5/8 c. water. However, in the video that accompanied the article and recipe, the amount of water mentioned was 1 1/2 c. I believe that most have come to accept the 1 1/2 c. number as the number to use.

Subsequently, Mark Bittman, the author of the original New York Times article, revisited the Lahey no knead recipe and gave recommended weight equivalents for the various ingredients. They are 430 grams for the flour, 345 grams for the water, 1 gram for the IDY and 8 grams for the salt. For a dough ball weighing 1.75 pounds (28 ounces), as you requested, the dough formulation based on the Bittman numbers, using the expanded dough formulation tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, is as follows:

Flour (100%): Water (80.2326%): IDY (0.23255%): Salt (1.86046%): Total (182.32561%):

435.37 g  |  15.36 oz | 0.96 lbs 349.31 g  |  12.32 oz | 0.77 lbs 1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp 8.1 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp 793.8 g | 28 oz | 1.75 lbs | TF = N/A

If, as an alternative, you choose to use the original amounts of IDY and salt, the formulation becomes:

Flour (100%): Water (80.2326%): IDY (0.17512%): Salt (1.6225%): Total (182.03022%):

436.08 g  |  15.38 oz | 0.96 lbs 349.88 g  |  12.34 oz | 0.77 lbs 0.76 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 7.08 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.27 tsp | 0.42 tbsp 793.8 g | 28 oz | 1.75 lbs | TF = N/A

There apparently were some complaints that the Lahey recipe was too low on salt, so that is something you might want to take into account if you decide to try the no knead dough. I might also add that I did not include any bowl residue compensation in the dough formulations presented above. Because of the extreme wetness of the dough, I think I would use something around 6% as a bowl residue compensation. Even that might turn out to be on the low side.

Peter

[pcampbell]

Thanks... looks like I was a little high on the water and alittle low on the salt.  We tried this one the other day though, and it came out quite nicely even as is... with... a lot of salty butter