Author Topic: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?  (Read 4692 times)

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Offline aeneas1

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Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« on: November 28, 2006, 06:49:10 PM »
needless to say this forum has to be the finest of its kind on the net - the collective knowledge and generous amount of sharing is nothing short of incredible. unfortunately, i'm having somewhat of a tough time navigating through much of this information given that it's not quite apparent to me which threads refer to residential applications (lower oven temperatures) and which refer to commercial applications (higher oven temperatures). could it be that this forum is primarily for the home enthusiasts?

i am planning to add a wood fire oven to my restaurant operation and am looking for recipes, experiences, thoughts which are specifically related to baking classic neapolitan pizzas at 750+ degrees. although each company i have spoken with offers "full training" upon purchase of the oven, i was hoping to begin my education process a little sooner with your help. i've also had the good fortune of befriending a very experienced neapolitan pizza maker who works at a highly successful wood fire pizza operation nearby - i have spent several hours watching him at work and he has generously agreed to help out with additional training once my oven arrives.

anyway, i was hoping that someone might point me to posts (or a section of this forum) that specifically discusses neapolitan pizza preparation in commercial environments and ovens.





Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2006, 08:03:12 PM »
aeneas1,

You have correctly perceived that this forum is populated by primarily home enthusiasts. However, that is not to say that the forum doesn't have members who are professionals. There are many, including members specializing in Neapolitan style pizzas using high-temperature ovens. The fact that most members do not have high temperature ovens has not discouraged them from trying to make reasonable facsimiles of Neapolitan style pizzas in their home ovens. Some members have even found ways to use the clean cycles of their home ovens to achieve the high temperatures that are most beneficial to achieving the best results with the Neapolitan style. As a forum member of fairly long standing, and as a Moderator familiar with the the organization of the subject matter of the forum, I can tell you that there is no breakdown of the Neapolitan style between residential and commercial. On balance there is more residential than commercial, but the two disciplines coexist in a rather harmonious way. Those members who have high temperature ovens use Neapolitan dough formulations that benefit from such high temperatures whereas those who do not have high temperature ovens look to ways to modify such formulations for home oven applications.

I think it would be helpful to know what kind of oven and brands you are considering for your business, and the degree of seriousness with which you intend to approach the Neapolitan style. There are many wood-fired (and gas-fired) ovens that can be used to make Neapolitan style pizzas, including ovens from Earthstone, Woodstone, Renato, and Forno Bravo, but if you are intent on achieving the highest degree of authenticity, you may want to investigate ovens that are specifically designed with that objective in mind. Ultimately, your objectives and budget will dictate your final selection. But once your objective is known, I suspect that members will step forward with their recommendations and advice.

Peter

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2006, 04:59:35 AM »
Peter,

With all due respect for your long standing membership and moderator role, I believe it is VERY dangerous to give advice to "commercial" people without first hand experience.

It is not only a matter of autenticity "out of context"... The way you describe "Neapolitan Style", with many wood fired oven being suitable..., for me it is as goood as including NYC style in that group...

I start sounding annoying to myself as well, but AGAIN there is only one type of oven that can produce Pizza Napoletana and that is a Neapolitan made brick oven. As a side note, in yesterday BBC programme, Blumenthal came out with the same conclusion, and as you know he has a very scientific cooking philosophy.

The thing that ultimately frustrate me is that more people opens so call "Neapolitan piizza joint" offering whatever product that is as far from a Neapolitan pizza" as the trip Naples -NYC via ships....

I recomand a visit to Naples with a nice Temperature gun and cronometer to measure temperature and baking time of those Neapolitan ovens and then try to do the same with the one you have mentioned...
For the record Blumenthal seams to have measured an average of  500C on the floor ovens in Naples... And this happen baking 400 pizza a service (many pizza baked continuosly tend to lower the temperature of the floor, but this do not happen with Well built Neapolitan Ovens.

As far as I know, the only properly built Neapolitan ovens in US  are at Bettola in Birmingham and for what I was told by a friend (about who built it) and so in the pictures on thi site, at Spaccanapoli in Chicago.

Aeneas,

Check www.forno-napoletano.it

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2006, 09:30:08 AM »
Marco,

I appreciate your concern but I was not trying to dispense commercial oven advice particularly, as you noted, I do not have first hand experience with high temperature wood-fired (or gas-fired) ovens. What I was attempting to do was to try to elicit from aeneas1 what his plans and expectations are, with the hope that you and other knowledgeable persons on high temperature ovens (which does not include me) would interject yourselves into the discussion and offer advice. In my writings on this subject on this forum, I try to distinguish between authentic Neapolitan and Neapolitan "style" pizzas. I mentioned specific brands of ovens just in case aeneas1 was considering one of those brands, in which case my concern would be that he may not have the full picture of all the options, including, and especially, the one you mention. Although I try to choose my words carefully, maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough, but my concern is the same as yours.

Peter

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2006, 05:05:36 PM »
It should also go without saying that anyone trying to reproduce a style of pizza like this by reading message boards on the internet should take these forums with a grain of salt. They have training for their ovens for a reason, and although some of that information may be available elsewhere, if you are going to be authentic to the style, you are best off doing as pizzanapoletana suggested. This is a highly regulated style of pizza with very strict standards.

Offline sumeri

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2006, 01:10:58 AM »
If you are indeed serious about making an authentic pizza napoletana
DO NOT let a sales rep talk you into a pre fab oven.  Only go with a hand made oven from Napoli.
Suprisingly the cost difference between a pre fab and a hand made is not that much...except for the crappy dollar to Euro exchange rate.
If you want to do another style then pre fab is perfectly fine.


Offline shango

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2006, 08:44:54 PM »
I cannot comment on the oven at Bettola (forgive my shameless plug) as I have never eaten there.  I can say that they seem to be another one of the companies that are popping up with "neapolitan Pizze".  Who is the Pizzaiolo? We do not know... I am sure he has mastered the high temps that an "official"napoli oven can bake.... :-[

Had my oven up to 960....hmmmm.....
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2006, 04:55:16 AM »
I cannot comment on the oven at Bettola (forgive my shameless plug) as I have never eaten there.  I can say that they seem to be another one of the companies that are popping up with "neapolitan Pizze".  Who is the Pizzaiolo? We do not know... I am sure he has mastered the high temps that an "official"napoli oven can bake.... :-[

Had my oven up to 960....hmmmm.....

Shango,

I do not understand your message and/or if it is suppose to be ironic or sarcastic...

I was involved as a consultant at Bettola and train the guy myself. Surely he's using a Neapolitan formulation and methodology and not an Americanaside version like many VPN America member.
He has The best mixer available to make Neapolitan pizza as well one of the top 2 Neapolitan made ovens.

I have not seen him operate in his current set-up but he has the tools to bake pizza in 30 seconds as well as 90. It is up to him how he prefer to operate and surely is improving on the commercial operation side everyday.

Hope to have help you with your questions and ask again if you so wish.

Offline Repguy

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2006, 05:49:49 AM »
Hmmm,  Caputo flour guys at Vegas pizza show baking neo pizza in a prefab oven at well over 900 Degrees..............

Hmmmm, Shango's oven at well over 900 degrees.

Where again is your pizza store located Marco????????????

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2006, 08:03:20 AM »
Repguy,

You sound repetitive but I see that you memory is coming back with being at a Pizza show... Were the Caputo guys happy? Was there any chance to get a proper oven in-door at the show? Did they (Caputo) have the choice to get the best set up? Was the pizza at the show baked in the same time as it would have in a proper Neapolitan oven? Was the final pizza at these shows an authentic representation of Pizza Napoletana? The answer to all the above question is NO!

About the temperature (as I understand again that you do not see the point:

Il Pizzaiolo in Pittsburgh current oven (Brick made but NOT Neapolitan) get well over 999 F (the gauger cannot get above that) and still do not bake a pizza before 2 minutes.
A Neapolitan oven will bake it in 30-45 seconds.

You keep writing messages with no useful information or facts, did not show us how good you are and YOU ARE TRYING very hard to get some credibility by challenging the fact that I do not own a pizzeria. This strategy is poor at the best and luckily very clear to many members of this forum

You want to visit and taste my pizza? Come in London at Donna Margherita in January/February and you will find me behind the oven most of the Friday/Saturdays. Would you introduce yourself? up to you...

Again, Repguy, you want to advertise Woodstone ovens as being good for Pizza Napoletana? Be clear on this point so we can go back to at least 2 very American Pizzeria owners that can tell how wrong you are. You obviously have never seen a Proper Neapolitan Oven.

I really hope you can see some light and stop hiding and attacking and instead do really something good to get credibility..... Repguy..., representing what? I think Woodstone


Offline Trinity

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2006, 08:31:02 AM »
Chill guys, ::)

 pizzanapoletana,,, Is a true artsian. You have to give that respect. :)

 Ovens like he describes are works of art, Just like the pizza that comes from them. :chef:
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.

Offline David

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2006, 08:52:11 AM »
This repeated tit for tat is becoming extremely tiresome and really lowers the standard of quality at this Forum IMO.Could you please just ignore each other for the sake of the Forum?I believe your stances are clearly understood at this point .
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline Trinity

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2006, 09:09:44 AM »
 ::)

 Not to the new guy... :P :-D
It's an Earth food. They are called Swedish meatballs. It's a strange thing, but every sentient race has its own version of these Swedish meatballs! I suspect it's one of those great universal mysteries which will either never be explained, or which would drive you mad if you ever learned the truth.

Offline Wazza McG

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2006, 04:10:24 PM »
Repguy,

I respect and enjoy Marco's opinions, I would hate to think that this site could lose a valuable contributer of information because of lame attacks - please enjoy this site for what it represents.   

Marco - what is the brand name for the best fork mixer in your opinion, I have tried to find it through your threads to no avail.

Make Pizza, Be Happy   :)

Wazza McG
Fair Dinkum - you want more Pizza!  Crikey ! I've run out out them prawny thingymebobs again!

Offline aeneas1

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2006, 07:07:29 AM »
Quote
I think it would be helpful to know what kind of oven and brands you are considering for your business, and the degree of seriousness with which you intend to approach the Neapolitan style. There are many wood-fired (and gas-fired) ovens that can be used to make Neapolitan style pizzas, including ovens from Earthstone, Woodstone, Renato, and Forno Bravo, but if you are intent on achieving the highest degree of authenticity, you may want to investigate ovens that are specifically designed with that objective in mind. Ultimately, your objectives and budget will dictate your final selection. But once your objective is known, I suspect that members will step forward with their recommendations and advice.

i have looked at all of the oven manufacturers you mentioned as well as a few others - quite an experience listening to reps from each talk about their competitiors, wow, in the ugly sense! i have settled on strictly wood burning (no propane) and 55" - 65" in diameter. one thing i can say about my research is that i have yet to find an oven that is the clear and unanimous favorite among those in the industry (excluding reps) - one that is clearly the cadillac of such ovens which wins applause from everyone. as a matter of fact, i have not found one oven that at least one person in the industry (again, excluding reps) didn't have something negative to say about it - below average refractory, not enough thermal mass, insufficient floor thickness, poor design, not etl listed, cheap knockoff, hijacked design, fly-by-night manufacturer/distributor, etc., etc., etc.

consequently i have decided to go with a wood burning oven that i have seen in operation, one that has been in operation for over two years and which the owner and pizza maker swear by - it's also an oven that produces neapolitan style pizzas that have been rated as the best in the area by the local media food critics. obviously the recipe and technique have a little to do with it as well!

as far the type of pizza i want to make is concerned, i suppose it would best be described a "neapolitan style" as opposed to an authentic pizza napoletana. i intend to use fresh, in-house mozzarella (made from fresh, local organic curds), san marzano tomoatoes and 00 vesuvius flour. i say "neapolitan style" because i expect the cook time to be about 90 seconds instead of the 30 seconds you mentioned. the 90 seconds is the average cook time i have seen at the operation that uses the oven i will be buying while the temperature is maintained at about 900 degrees if i remember correctly.

anyway, as far as my original post is concerned, i was hoping that someone might be able to point me to some commercial operator discussions as i'm very interested in chatting with folks that use the sort of oven i will be purchasing in volume operations - batch recipes, daily wood consumption comparisons, pre-opening prep routines, batch dough - preparation, holding, rotation and management, best specialty purveyors, etc. - topics that might not be touched on in residential discussions.



« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 07:10:25 AM by aeneas1 »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2006, 07:22:16 AM »

consequently i have decided to go with a wood burning oven that i have seen in operation, one that has been in operation for over two years and which the owner and pizza maker swear by


aeneas1,

What oven is that?

Bill/SFNM

Offline shango

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2007, 02:22:28 PM »
Necro posting, I know.
I just wanted to clarify that I don't think that the oven is the key to making neapolitan pizze,  it is hugely important.
The "disciplinaire" for pizza napoletana does not specify a certain type of oven (or mixer for that matter)  it says a wood burning oven preferably neapolitan.

A good pizzaiolo can make a good neapolitan pizza based on his ingredients, skill, and attention to traditional details...

I am not saying that the neapolitan ovens are bad,  I am positive that they are awesome.
I am saying that a real pizzaiolo will make neapolitan pizze with any quality, wood burning oven.

I am not selling anything.  Woodstone, Forno Napoletano,..

here is a link to some Napoli pizze. 
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4694.new.html#new

pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2007, 03:08:42 PM »
Shango,

The original disciplinare Does in FACT specify the mixer type, by preference order. The planetary (Hobart which you may use) is not even listed. Again we go back to what VPN USA give you in terms of reference, but that is not the whole story.

Any pizzamakers  in Naples will tell you that IT MUST BE A CERTAIN TYPE OF OVEN. Can you cook 600-650 pizza from 17 to 23 hrs in a woodstone?(each pizza only staying 30-40 seconds in the oven, off course 5-6 at the times in certain periods) Did you ever used an authentic Neapolitan oven?

You are talking about Pizza Napoletana and what should or should not... based on a certification you have paid for. Please visit Naples, do some primary research and then we'll go back talking about this. You may still prefer your own version, but will realise that the real thing is most probably different. We kind of had the same discussion when you said "ONLY FRESH YEAST MUST BE USED FOR PIZZA NAPOLETANA". I know it is not your fault if you were fed the wrong info, but you can make your part by opening your eyes and taking initiative.

Bare in mind, i know that a pizzamaker can make a difference whilst cooking one or two pizza and paid 100% attention to that, but this would be not replicable by volume (I have already posted pictures of my pizza in American brick oven (no prefab, artisanal made in US)).

With no offence, and only by seeing the pictures, your pizza looks good but I can see something is not 100% all right. Do not get me wrong, these are much better of the one served in many other VPN US certified establishment, but differ slightly (and probably only a very attentive eye would see it) from the one served in Naples and few other places (including few in US).

Ciao

Offline shango

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2007, 03:33:44 PM »
Marco,
I have much respect for you and your vast knowledge of neapolitan pizze.

Here is the thing though, you often come across as a sales pitch.  What I mean by this is, you are always saying that vera pizza must be made with this guys oven, or, that guys mixer, or, so and so's flour....I believe that with most of these things you are close to being correct but, not 100 percent correct. 

A good pizzaiolo can make a good vera pizza by following guidelines outlined by the old timers.  There is no product placement in the disciplinaire. Standards of craftsmanship and specific specifications for cooking times, ingredients, temperatures etc...

Simply stating that a certain product or piece of equipment is the best because you sell it and you are the end all of be all of vera pizze napoletana is not only arrogant, it lacks integrity.

I do not question that the oven must be of a certain type,  but is that type specifically forno napoletano brand?  ( I am dying to try one of your ovens, by the way.)

I have cooked more than 1000 pizze in a day right here @ 2AMYS.  Proper fire management and cooking technique are the key here, not the oven's manufacturer.

I have paid VPN nothing.  I am not the proprietor, simply the pizza man.

As far as I know, only fresh yeast can be used for vera pizza napoletana.  I still haven't seen that amendment, although I will agree that "crisceto" pizze are far superior.(thank you, Marco)

As far as opening my eyes and taking initative, my eyes have always been open and I am certainly taking the initaive to make the best pizze possible.

I kind of agree with the fourth paragraph of your post....It is difficult to keep the master pizzaiolo tied to the oven, but it is certainly the correct way to make vera pizze.

And finally, I would agree everything is not 100 percent right.  But it is really close and this was during service on a thursday that we did almost 200 pizze for lunch (between 12 and 3 pm).  The oven was not hot enough and some of the cooks were in the way.

I invite you again to try my pizze.

Cheers,
-E

P..s.  I would also take some quotes and specs. on mixers, ovens and consultations if they are available.  You can just PM them to me.

Thanks again.




pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Separate Residential & Commercial Categories?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2007, 04:24:37 PM »
Shango,

I was standing by these grounds before even getting involved directly with sales.
I have searched long and far for the best possible tools to make the most authentic Pizza Napoletana. My early clients bought these things from third parties and that is how then was asked by the manufactures to get involved.

If anything else will do, you would find a lot of cheaper, precast ovens (no bricks) in Naples, but you find NONE. people do not just spend money for the sake of it!

Neapolitan ovens are made by masters not brands, and only few know how to make it. I have in the past talked about various manufacturers of ovens. Some I was misinterpreted and some I was made to believe that they were good (one manufacturer told me that on oven I knew and used/trusted was made by himself but later found out it was a lie, unfortunately I even recommended their name in the past), so after further research I would only recommends two ovens manufacturer. Yes I am involved with one, but only because I trust 110% their product.

A 30 seconds pizza and a 90 seconds pizza are very different. Go to Naples first and then you see what I mean. Please do not refer to the disciplinare again and again, as we have talked about where it lacks. On this forum I have also posted a link where it was clear that the old masters, namely the father of VPN president Pace, described a pizza very different from what the desciplinare advocate... And you talk about integrity? I know the people behind the desciplinare..... One of them as separated from VPN when they became commercial and loose focus on safeguarding the Authentic thing..

Master Pizzamaker Tied to the oven? We have a separate job role for that in Naples, but the oven should cook, not the guy lifting-lowering, right-left just to get one pizza straight.. Have you seen the video I linked? in, one turn, out... less then 40 seconds.... 1000 pizza at 2Amys????? I would like to believe it, but as far as I know, there is no place in US serving those numbers of Pizza Napoletana, but if you do, I take my hut off because you are making a successful business.

For the record, originally  (1986-1992 I believe) a team of researchers from the University of Naples worked on the draft of the disciplinare. they even specify a brand and model of mixer which was identified as producing the most consistent Pizza Napoletana. An hobart doesn't mix the dough as a fork mixer and only someone that never seen the difference between the two could say so. Same if not more is valid for the oven.