Am I crazy?

[mivler]

Hi,

I have a friend who knows I’m a pizza nut. Anyway I made pizza for him and his wife. The pizza came out very good (as usual). Both he and his wife told me how much they enjoyed my pizza. Anyway as we are chatting in the kitchen eating the pizza, he throws out the crust and grabs another slice. I played it off and did not make a scene. I have made pizza for them before but never paid much attention to whether or not the crust was eaten. He clearly did not think he was insulting me because he did it right in front of me. When he did it a second time I almost lost it. I resisted saying anything. I mentioned to my wife that I am never going to make pizza for them again. She thinks I’m over reacting.

Thanks for listening. Thoughts?

Michael

[canadave]

Well, I can't say whether you're crazy or not, but my opinion is that you're certainly overreacting.  I lived in NYC for all my life and most of the time didn't eat the crust.  Sometimes I did, but not the majority of times.  I've no idea why anyone would want to get upset at someone for not eating the end crust.

The other night I hosted a pizza party for a few of my neighbours and their families.  I encouraged them, particularly the kids, to make their own pizzas using dough batches I'd prepared a couple of days before; I gave minimal help, and usually only if they were going to completely destroy the pizza (i.e. toss the dough on the floor).  In the hands of the kids (and some of the adults), the dough usually wound up mangled a fair bit, the sauce was sloppily applied, and the cheese wasn't deployed quite how I would've done it.  And the final pizza results were almost always nowhere near what I know I could've done.  Not only that, but some pizzas wound up half-eaten, some with crusts left over, etc.  One pizza slice I found in the garbage had only two bites taken out of it! (I think it was one of the littlest girls in the party who wasn't keen on it).

But hey--all of the things I've just mentioned are part of the deal.  I would never expect the recipients of my pizza to conform to my own standards of pizza making or pizza consumption.  Everyone (as far as I know) went home happy; and that's the only thing that matters when making pizza for others.

If I may also ask you the following rhetorical question: when you make pizza for others, are you doing it for yourself, or for them?  

Cheers,
Dave

[Randy]

I agree, your overreacting.  If no one else ate the outer crust then you should review your recipe.

[mivler]

canadave,

I laughed when I read that question. It's a good point, company is often a good excuse to make pizza.

Michael

[Pete-zza]

Michael,

It looks like you and Bill/SFNM are on the same page: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2647.msg22982.html#msg22982 (Reply 10, second paragrraph).

Peter

[canadave]

canadave,

I laughed when I read that question. It's a good point, company is often a good excuse to make pizza.

Michael

lol...I see what you're saying.  I think you missed the point of my little rhetorical question though.  What I was trying to say is that it's sometimes easy, when one becomes adept at making pizza, to become a "pizza snob"--to start viewing our pizza creations as beautiful works of art that those lucky few we invite to partake of it should recognize as being the work of a master pizzaolo.  In other words, making pizza becomes not so much about giving something that tastes good to other people, but instead it becomes something we do to garner praise from other people.  I went through this phase myself.  But we should always remember that when we make pizza for other people, it's for *their* benefit--not for the benefit of our own pizzaolo ego.  Does that make sense?

On another note--Pete, how the heck did you come up with that ten-month-old post from Bill/SFNM so fast??   

[Pete-zza]

Pete, how the heck did you come up with that ten-month-old post from Bill/SFNM so fast??   

Dave,

Elementary, my Dear Dave . I remember Bill's post and that he used the words "crust" and "invite" in his text, and I simply did an Advanced search using those terms as search words.

Peter

[canadianbacon]

Yup, kind of over-reacting.  You don't want to lose a friend over something that silly.  When you think about it,
he's not throwing away a 1/2 a bottle of beer you gave him, he's tossing away 2 cents worth of dough, and I will take
a guess he does this all the time, -- not just with your pizza.  I DO know however, why you are feeling that way, it is a bit
insulting, if the invited guest *knows* you made it, and he tossed a bit of it out, and in front of you.  I guess he feels comfortable
with you, and with what he did, and doesn't think he's doing something to make you feel badly, and insulted.

If you were in a pizza joint eating a pizza with this person, you wouldn't think twice about it.  What they choose
to do with their crusts is up to them.

My kids never eat the crust of their pizzas when I made it for dinner.... and that suits me fine, as I eat them all 

I love dunking the crusts into creamy Caesar dressing... great stuff.

[canadave]

Dave,

Elementary, my Dear Dave . I remember Bill's post and that he used the words "crust" and "invite" in his text, and I simply did an Advanced search using those terms as search words.

Peter

The strange thing is, the fact you remember two specific keywords from a post that's 10 months old doesn't even surprise me anymore    Are you actually human? (I'm thinking of one of Isaac Asimov's "I, Robot" stories where everyone's unsure if the politician running for president is a human or an android)

[November]

Actually, I think a clever approach to handling it the next time would be to bake a pizza without a rim.  Just create an American pan style pizza and pile the toppings right to the edge.  You can determine his reason for discarding the crust pretty easily from any reaction he might give as a result.  Pull a Columbo on him, but don't make your reaction to his behavior obvious.  Your reaction is probably too strong in this situation.

- red.november

[canadave]

Actually, I think a clever approach to handling it the next time would be to bake a pizza without a rim.  Just create an American pan style pizza and pile the toppings right to the edge.  You can determine his reason for discarding the crust pretty easily from any reaction he might give as a result.  Pull a Columbo on him, but don't make your reaction to his behavior obvious.  Your reaction is probably too strong in this situation.

- red.november

That's not a bad idea.  To be honest, though, I think the vast majority of people who don't eat the crust simply just don't like eating pizza crust that doesn't have sauce or cheese on it--I don't think there's much detective work to be done there   For me, not eating the end crust is perfectly normal and natural; when someone asks me why I'm not eating the crust, I do a double-take because I don't even realize I'm not eating it.  It just doesn't appetize me that much.

Everyone's different when it comes to their tastes for pizza, and I think we as pizza makers should respect and honour those differences.  You wouldn't force everyone to eat a particular type of pizza, would you?   Then there's no reason we shouldn't allow people to eat our pizza however they want, and to any extent they want.

[canadave]

I'll also add that I think Randy's earlier suggestion might be the best one so far.  The only time I'll eat an end crust is when it looks particularly appetizing and tastes really good on the first exploratory bite.  So maybe the trick is just to tweak the recipe if you really feel strongly about it

[November]

To be honest, though, I think the vast majority of people who don't eat the crust simply just don't like eating pizza crust that doesn't have sauce or cheese on it--I don't think there's much detective work to be done there

You might be surprised.  There are dozens of reasons for not eating the rim, other than not enjoying the crust.  On occasion while dining in a restaurant with dirty bathrooms, I eat only what my hands don't touch.  This means leaving the rim alone.  Some people pinch the rim really hard while gripping the slice and don't like to eat compressed (dense) bread.  Some people are on low-carb diets and avoid as much bread as possible.  I could spend the next thirty minutes listing reasons there are so many, but a simple exercise should put the issue to rest.

- red.november

[canadave]

Hmmm...all good points.  Well, as we say up here, "give 'er, mivler!"

[Pete-zza]

Everyone's different when it comes to their tastes for pizza, and I think we as pizza makers should respect and honour those differences.  You wouldn't force everyone to eat a particular type of pizza, would you?   Then there's no reason we shouldn't allow people to eat our pizza however they want, and to any extent they want.

Dave,

You have touched on what I think is one of the most important lessons that one can learn about pizza. I recall asking one of our members, BIG Daddy, who had attended the AIB's Practical Pizza Making course in preparation for opening his own pizzeria, what surprised him most about what he learned at the course. I was expecting to hear about technical aspects of pizza making. But the answer he gave, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1888.msg17890.html#msg17890, really surprised me, especially this excerpt:

i]WHAT REALLY SURPRISED ME:  What really surprised me was the true "academic nature" of pizza.  Simply stated "What is a great pizza to some is average, or less, to others".  What is a great mouth feel, or flavor, to many can be just average to many others.  And with 30 +- students and 8 + pizza formulas that were made, cooked and eaten by the students; the academic nature of pizza truly hit home[/i]

Whenever questions or comments come up that relate to matters of taste or personal preferences, I think back on BIG Daddy's remarks.

Peter

[mivler]

All,

Thanks for the perspectives. My thoughts were similar to Bill/SFNM. I put most of my effort into the crusts. However I realize after reading all the remarks that I should not take it personally. Maybe next time I'll either make a pizza stlye with no outer crust or a very small rim.

Michael

[Bill/SFNM]

I totally agree with Bill/SFNM. 

To some people, pizza is just fast food and if they aren't going to enjoy what I bake, then I'll find something else they will enjoy. I would guess that about 1/3 of my friends fit the category of preferring something other than pizza - although it is so hard to tell because no one says "well, that sure sucked" . The bottom line is that want I them to go home with happy stomachs.

Pete-zza, do you remember where I left my car keys?

Bill/SFNM

[November]

Bill,

The "bottom line" you mentioned sort of chills my colander of steamed asparagus.  I think the bottom line should be that everybody enjoys each others' company.  Otherwise one's "friends" can eat somewhere else.  The reason why I felt that had to be said is because a lot of people have their identify wrapped up in the food they prepare, especially if they put a lot of time into it.  It's kind of like someone rejecting you for one of your physical features, your intelligence, or your occupation.  I hesitated getting into the psychological aspect of this, but it's hard to ignore.  A happy stomach comes a distant second.  A quality relationship comes first.  If Michael reacts hurt by this, there maybe something to this on a level not appropriate for discussion here.  Even if this is just a case of over-reaction, it's no less important to remember the relationship comes first, and that can't always be solved by appealing to one's culinary senses.

- red.november

[Bill/SFNM]

Bill,

The "bottom line" you mentioned sort of chills my colander of steamed asparagus.  I think the bottom line should be that everybody enjoys each others' company.  Otherwise one's "friends" can eat somewhere else.  The reason why I felt that had to be said is because a lot of people have their identify wrapped up in the food they prepare, especially if they put a lot of time into it.  It's kind of like someone rejecting you for one of your physical features, your intelligence, or your occupation.  I hesitated getting into the psychological aspect of this, but it's hard to ignore.  A happy stomach comes a distant second.  A quality relationship comes first.  If Michael reacts hurt by this, there maybe something to this on a level not appropriate for discussion here.  Even if this is just a case of over-reaction, it's no less important to remember the relationship comes first, and that can't always be solved by appealing to one's culinary senses.

- red.november

November,

You take my comments out of the intended context. I was limiting my response to the food aspect only of entertaining. I'll try to be more precise in the future.

Bill/SFNM

[mivler]

Hi,

I want to clarify that this is not going to affect my relationship with my friends. At the time I just thought it was a sign that he did not like the crust. I resisted the temptation to make a comment to him about why he threw out the crust. In rereading my post I think I made it sound stronger than I felt. I was surprised (okay I was a little insulted). I was not angry at him or upset. As I mentioned above I knew he did not do it to intentionally insult me. I just figured that if he is not a big fan of pizza (or pizza crust), that I should make something else in the future. This is why I made the comment to my wife. My friend is very complementary about everything so it is hard to tell whether or not he liked it. After seeing and thinking about the other reasons he may have not eaten the crust, I realize that as much as he enjoyed (or didn’t enjoy) the part with sauce and cheese, he may not like the outer crust and there is nothing wrong with that. I may try to ask him some time when we are not eating how he really feels about pizza. I do not want to deny him pizza because he does not enjoy the outer crust as much as I do if he really does enjoy the rest of it. I also don’t want to force it on him if he is just eating it because he does not want me to feel bad.

I would like to mention that this occurred a few weeks ago. I was just bored at the end of a work day and I was thinking about the pizza I am going to prepare tomorrow and my friend happened to call me at work. That is why I thought if it.

Also, since then we had them over for dinner and I made something else (chicken lasagna).