Author Topic: fermenting pizza sauce ?  (Read 5333 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline csacks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 94
  • It takes some big onions.
fermenting pizza sauce ?
« on: December 14, 2006, 02:14:56 PM »
I recently read a post on fermenting pizza sauce.  This past Saturday afternoon I had half a can of Escalon 6in1 left over and decided to give it a try.  This Thursday noon, I found the lid blown off the tomatoes.  Bubbles are visable on the sides of the tuperware.  I would like some opinions on how long to let this ferment.  I used some yeast that I had ordered to make some wine.  Where to from here?   :chef: CraiG


Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1879
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2006, 02:26:07 PM »
CraiG,

I'm not sure what proportion of wine yeast you used to tomato sauce, but I would expect that you would want to use less than the amount used for turning all your sauce into tomato wine.  How much yeast did you use, and for how much tomato sauce?

- red.november

Offline DNA Dan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 830
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2006, 02:59:46 PM »
Where did you purchase your yeast? online?

Offline csacks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 94
  • It takes some big onions.
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2006, 05:06:43 PM »
http://www.homebrewery.com/index.html

I used a quarter of a teaspoon of yeast.  The first day,day and a half, I did not notice anything happening, so I gently heated the 6in1 up to 80 degrees in a warm water bath.  It seemed to really put the yeast into gear.  I had been keeping it in the refrigerator(I still am).  I am thinking that this is a short term procedure.  Maybe a week until it is used.  CraiG

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1879
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2006, 05:41:55 PM »
The usual process of making tomato wine includes using about a gram of yeast for every pound of tomatoes, storing it in a cool place (not cold), and stirring it daily for about 6 days.  Of course if we're talking about pure wine, you would filter off the pulp and age the wine for at least a year, but since we're talking about a pizza sauce, a week may be long enough.

- red.november

Offline csacks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 94
  • It takes some big onions.
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2006, 05:59:30 PM »
Appreciated!  It's not like there were recipes lying around.  I am having a little trouble understanding yeast.  Is there really any difference between 1/2t and 1/4t.  Don't they multiply into billions anyway.  Can our tongue tell the difference between 1 billion yeast and 2 billion yeast.  Granted one cup would be different.  CraiG

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1879
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2006, 06:24:10 PM »
CraiG,

Yes, in fact there are a lot of analogues in chemistry that teach us that a substance measured in parts per million (PPM) is still significant enough to affect either our senses or our health.  However, it isn't just the yeast you are tasting, it's the byproducts of the yeast, and thresholds are determined on an individual basis.  There are all kinds of chemical (reaction) and biological (population) limits to how much yeast you can sustain in your finite amount of tomato sauce too.  I would definitely not go beyond 0.25 teaspoons for a pound of tomato.

- red.november

Offline DNA Dan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 830
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2006, 12:33:40 AM »
Appreciated!  It's not like there were recipes lying around.  I am having a little trouble understanding yeast.  Is there really any difference between 1/2t and 1/4t.  Don't they multiply into billions anyway.  Can our tongue tell the difference between 1 billion yeast and 2 billion yeast.  Granted one cup would be different.  CraiG

It's not so much an issue of having two times the yeast in there as it is time. They will grow to some saturation point and this growth is exponential. With twice the amount of yeast you will reach this point sooner than having less yeast there. Depending upon how well they like eating your sauce, this could be a matter of days or hours difference between the two amounts. I think adding too much will have a negative effect on the taste. The yeast will be too overpowering. I'd assume you want just a hint of the yeast flavor there so you don't overpower the tomato flavor and spices in the sauce. Try tasting it at regular intervals.

For this type of sauce, do you think it needs to be "pre-cooked" before using it? I mean can you put it on raw in the hopes that it will be fully cooked from the oven? Wouldn't the slightest amount of yeast eaten raw make you sick or give an upset stomach?

Thanks for the link!

BTW, which yeast are you using? care to share?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 12:40:25 AM by DNA Dan »

Offline csacks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 94
  • It takes some big onions.
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2006, 10:44:12 AM »
Red Star Premier Cuvee - Recommended for reds, whites and especially champagne. This yeast is the fastest, cleanest, and most neutral fermenter offered by Red StarŪ. Good for restarting stuck fermentations. Ferments best between 45°-95°F. (18% alcohol tolerance)

I think this is the one that I ordered.  (notice the temp range) The packages aren't labeled as such, I would have to check my invoice for sure.  We were making cherry wine for the first time and the fact that it was clean and neutral appealed to me.  It's interesting what all the different yeasts do.  It's possible that there is one just perfect for pizza sauce.  The sauce that I am fermenting doesn't have a distingishable smell as yet.  I am sure that I would get more action taking it out of the fridge.  At the same time I hate to leave food out.

 You were talking in another thread about the fermenting sauce.  Do they leave it going like you would sour dough?  CraiG

http://www.homebrewery.com/wine/wine-yeast-dry.shtml


Offline csacks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 94
  • It takes some big onions.
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2006, 10:53:29 AM »
We tasted our wine at all stages.  We had to be drinking live yeast.  I don't think anyone got a belly ache.  I would/will put the sauce on uncooked.  CraiG


Offline DNA Dan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 830
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2006, 12:36:32 PM »

 You were talking in another thread about the fermenting sauce.  Do they leave it going like you would sour dough? 


I assume you were talking to me? I don't know the specifics of how they ferment their sauce. All I know is it's a raw sauce going on the pizza and if you keep it in an airtight container, it expands. I also haven't tried this yet, but I am curious about what your results are with the wine yeast.

The sauce I know of which I suspect is fermented has a "beer" flavor to it. It also doesn't taste anything like the finished product when you taste it raw.

I would suggest you heat a little up and see if the taste changes. For the sake of restaurant production, I can't imagine they are storing buckets of sauce until they are ready to use. That would just be too much effort and space for a restaurant to do themselves. Perhaps they have a "mother" culture which is highly active and fermenting, of which they add to a fresh base as their "working sauce"? Just a thought.

I don't think storing tomatos at room temperature is a good idea. The tomato component could definitely spoil, unless the fermentation process reaches a point that it preserves it. I have no clue how to judge this.

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1879
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2006, 02:32:29 PM »
I would like to remind everyone that refrigeration is a recent invention, and wine has been made at "room temperature" for thousands of years.  Also, in the wine making process, one is supposed to pasteurize the fruit (tomato in this case) at the start.

- red.november

Offline csacks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 94
  • It takes some big onions.
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2006, 09:17:02 AM »
The fermented sauce turned out really good.  I added spices that were listed in a Lehman post.   I am sure that I didn't get the amounts correct, but I used the same spices.   I really liked the sauce straight out of the bowl.  Our test was the fermented sauce vs a sauce the red has listed in another thread.  Votes were split as to which was the best.  I must say red's is really great.  My best pizza to date.  Thank you all!  CraiG

Offline kaltorak18

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 5
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Beer and Pizza go hand in hand
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2006, 11:59:10 AM »
I would like to remind everyone that refrigeration is a recent invention, and wine has been made at "room temperature" for thousands of years.  Also, in the wine making process, one is supposed to pasteurize the fruit (tomato in this case) at the start.

- red.november

Which is true, the only thing to remember is that "room temperature" was normally cave temperature.  So a nice 50-55 degrees usually.  If you got your yeast from a homebrew shop, usually they have  temperature ranges printed on the packets.  These temperatures are the optimal temps at which the yeast ferments.  Or, you could ask the guys at your local homebrew shop.  They usually are very glad to assist you with anything zymurgy related.

You also might want to try "whipping" your sauce a bit.. use a whisk or some other device and introduce air into the tomato sauce.  Yeast need oxygen just like we do for healthy fermentation.  Also remember to sanitize any device that comes into contact with the sauce, yeast have to compete with any other microorganisms that you may inadvertently put into the tomato sauce unless you sanitize the utensils.  These other beasties could possibly out compete your yeast and cause all sorts of weird flavors, mold, or other things to form.  The best way to sanitize on this level is to use a gallon of hot water and put a tsp of bleach into it.  Then soak the utensil for a few minutes and rinse with hot water.

I never thought of trying to ferment my sauce.  I bet it'd be tasty. I make homebrew beer and my neighbor makes homebrew tomato wine so I know all about the different flavors yeast could impart to the sauce.  Mmm...

 

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1879
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2006, 01:33:14 PM »
Which is true, the only thing to remember is that "room temperature" was normally cave temperature.

There weren't that many caves in Egypt 5000 years ago.  More caves are there now only because over time people dug them to burry their dead.

Yeast need oxygen just like we do for healthy fermentation.

Yeast get a steady supply of oxygen from sugar.  Atmospheric oxygen causes the yeast to switch on cellular respiration which subsequently changes the byproducts it releases (e.g. acetic or lactic acid vs. ethanol), and consequently changing the flavor.  Wine makers only aerate their wine under special circumstances, and it usually has to do with removing unwanted aromas.

- red.november
« Last Edit: December 27, 2006, 01:44:21 PM by November »

Offline kaltorak18

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 5
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Beer and Pizza go hand in hand
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2006, 01:08:12 PM »
There weren't that many caves in Egypt 5000 years ago.  More caves are there now only because over time people dug them to burry their dead.

Well, if it's anything like beer, you probably wouldn't want to drink the wine from 5000 years ago.  Besides, yeast evolve at a rapid rate due to their high reproduction volumes and low reproduction time.  In 5000 years yeast have become more specialized than they used to be, so a yeast that fermented fine at higher temperatures might now require lower ambient temps to ferment more effectively.  Also, fermenting at warmer temperatures draws out harsher flavors and alcohols from the yeast. 

Yeast get a steady supply of oxygen from sugar.  Atmospheric oxygen causes the yeast to switch on cellular respiration which subsequently changes the byproducts it releases (e.g. acetic or lactic acid vs. ethanol), and consequently changing the flavor.  Wine makers only aerate their wine under special circumstances, and it usually has to do with removing unwanted aromas.

- red.november

Well, in wine making you do not boil or heat the water very much if at all.  This means there is a good amount of dissolved oxygen in the water for the yeast to reproduce.  I bring my sauce to a simmer when reducing it, which would remove most, if not all, of the oxygen.  Having no oxygen would, as you correctly said, cause them to go into anaerobic respiration which is called fermentation, but depending on the amount of sugars present to ferment.. it may stress the yeast.  Stressing the yeast causes off flavors which can very well be detected in wine, beer, mead, and cider.  I am not sure how well they'd be detected in a fermented tomato sauce.  Adding oxygen to the water or sauce in this case would let the yeast enter aerobic respiration and reproduce.  The more there are, the less stress the yeast suffer and thus the less off flavors.

I guess it'd be an interesting experiment to heat the sauce up to reduce, cool it down and split into three parts.  Then whisk one of the sauces and don't whisk the other two.  Add the yeast to the whisked and one of the unwhisked and wait.  Once fermentation completes make three pizzas.  I wonder what the flavor differences would be.. or if they'd be detectable at all.  I should try this next time I make pizza.. mmmm that's my kind of experiment.

Offline iceman06

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12
  • Location: Alaska
  • Extra Anchovies Please !
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2006, 01:44:18 PM »
kaltorak you folks are amazing! :D I'm a newbie and am still back at the dough stage and just now learning all the different tomatoes and sauces available. I would really like to hear if you could possibly tell the differance on the fermentation thing. This site is wonderful and mind numbing to me and I'm having a blast. Please keep up the great posts so us wanna bees can learn more. Thanks, Pat ;D

Offline November

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1879
  • Location: North America
  • Come for the food. Stay for the science.
    • Uncle Salmon
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2006, 02:34:28 PM »
kaltorak18,

Evolution has nothing to do with changes in yeast strains over the years.  The only thing that's changed yeast is selective breeding and bioengineering.  Yeast in the wild still grow on the skins of grapes at the same temperature they did thousands of years ago.  I could point to any number of sites for reference, but since Wikipedia is familiar to most:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winemaking#Crushing_and_primary_fermentation

Notice that for primary fermentation the temperature range is 71.6-77 F for red wines (I've seen sources say as warm as 90 F) and 59-64.4 F for white wines.  I don't know what could be closer to room temperature than 59-77 degrees F.  In fact, the mean temperature of that range is exactly 68 F, and is considered room temperature by many chemistry textbooks.

"Having no oxygen would, as you correctly said, cause them to go into anaerobic respiration which is called fermentation"

Yes, and fermentation is the only way you're going to get alcohol, which is the main intended product in winemaking.  Where have you read that anaerobic respiration stresses the yeast?  Most winemakers use airlocks to ensure the wine doesn't oxidize.  You might might want to read up on "oxidative stress" for yeast, because I think you have it backwards.  Here's a place to start:

"Also, high aeration and aerobic metabolism can lead to oxidative stress." - http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/71/11/6831.pdf

- red.november

Offline Finnegans Wake

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 59
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Harrisburg, PA
  • De gustibus non est disputandum.
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2006, 03:51:39 PM »
GUARD #1:  Halt!  Who goes there?
  ARTHUR:  It is I, Arthur, son of Uther Pendragon, from the castle
      of Camelot.  King of the Britons, defeator of the Saxons, sovereign
      of all England!
  GUARD #1:  Pull the other one!
  ARTHUR:  I am.  And this my trusty servant Patsy.
      We have ridden the length and breadth of the land in search of knights
      who will join me in my court of Camelot.  I must speak with your lord
      and master.
  GUARD #1:  What, ridden on a horse?
  ARTHUR:  Yes!
  GUARD #1:  You're using coconuts!
  ARTHUR:  What?
  GUARD #1:  You've got two empty halves of coconut and you're bangin'
      'em together.
  ARTHUR:  So?  We have ridden since the snows of winter covered this
      land, through the kingdom of Mercea, through--
  GUARD #1:  Where'd you get the coconut?
  ARTHUR:  We found them.
  GUARD #1:  Found them?  In Mercea?  The coconut's tropical!
  ARTHUR:  What do you mean?
  GUARD #1:  Well, this is a temperate zone.
  ARTHUR:  The swallow may fly south with the sun or the house martin
      or the plumber may seek warmer climes in winter yet these are not
      strangers to our land.
  GUARD #1:  Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
  ARTHUR:  Not at all, they could be carried.
  GUARD #1:  What -- a swallow carrying a coconut?
  ARTHUR:  It could grip it by the husk!
  GUARD #1:  It's not a question of where he grips it!  It's a simple
      question of weight ratios!  A five ounce bird could not carry a 1 pound
      coconut.
  ARTHUR:  Well, it doesn't matter.  Will you go and tell your master
      that Arthur from the Court of Camelot is here.
  GUARD #1:  Listen, in order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow
      needs to beat its wings 43 times every second, right?
  ARTHUR:  Please!
  GUARD #1:  Am I right?
  ARTHUR:  I'm not interested!
  GUARD #2:  It could be carried by an African swallow!
  GUARD #1:  Oh, yeah, an African swallow maybe, but not a European
      swallow, that's my point.
  GUARD #2:  Oh, yeah, I agree with that...
  ARTHUR:  Will you ask your master if he wants to join my court
      at Camelot?!
  GUARD #1:  But then of course African swallows are not migratory.
  GUARD #2:  Oh, yeah...
  GUARD #1:  So they couldn't bring a coconut back anyway...
      [clop clop]
  GUARD #2:  Wait a minute -- supposing two swallows carried it together?
  GUARD #1:  No, they'd have to have it on a line.
  GUARD #2:  Well, simple!  They'd just use a standard creeper!
  GUARD #1:  What, held under the dorsal guiding feathers?
  GUARD #2:  Well, why not?
Education: that which reveals to the wise, and conceals from the stupid, the vast limits of their knowledge. --
Mark Twain

Offline kaltorak18

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 5
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Beer and Pizza go hand in hand
Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2006, 04:17:05 PM »
Evolution has nothing to do with changes in yeast strains over the years.  The only thing that's changed yeast is selective breeding and bioengineering.  Yeast in the wild still grow on the skins of grapes at the same temperature they did thousands of years ago.

Well, I'm not an evolutionary scientist so I was going with what I heard from yeast producers.  I assumed their information was correct as they were in the business of yeast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winemaking#Crushing_and_primary_fermentation

Notice that for primary fermentation the temperature range is 71.6-77 F for red wines (I've seen sources say as warm as 90 F) and 59-64.4 F for white wines.  I don't know what could be closer to room temperature than 59-77 degrees F.  In fact, the mean temperature of that range is exactly 68 F, and is considered room temperature by many chemistry textbooks.

Notice also that they crush the grapes.  The process of crushing grapes introduces oxygen into the must.

Ok, after doing more research, you are correct in stating that grape wines are fermented warm.  The low end is 55 degrees with the median being 65-70 degrees, sans color extraction which reaches 90 degrees.  Check out wyeast's website for more information on that.  So, I stand corrected :) 

"Having no oxygen would, as you correctly said, cause them to go into anaerobic respiration which is called fermentation"

Yes, and fermentation is the only way you're going to get alcohol, which is the main intended product in winemaking.  Where have you read that anaerobic respiration stresses the yeast?  Most winemakers use airlocks to ensure the wine doesn't oxidize.  You might might want to read up on "oxidative stress" for yeast, because I think you have it backwards.  Here's a place to start:

"Also, high aeration and aerobic metabolism can lead to oxidative stress." - http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/71/11/6831.pdf

- red.november

Are you implying that what I stated was that fermentation shouldn't happen?  I didn't say that... I said (restated) the yeast need oxygen at the beginning for reproduction.  This is so you have a healthy supply of yeast for the fermentation once the oxygen has been depleted from the must.  And again, during grape wine making you are taking a grape and crushing it.  This crushing procedure introduces oxygen.  Of course you want fermentation to occur, and one and only one aeration step is for a healthy fermentation with less stressed yeast.  After that you do not want oxygen to touch it at all.  This can cause problems such as the oxidative stress you are talking about.  In beer it creates cardboard flavors normally, but can sometimes create sherry like flavors.  It's always considered and off flavor.

And speaking of oxidative stress... you need to put a LOT of oxygen in the must for that to occur.  As they say in the homebrew community you have more of a chance of under aerating than you do over aerating.  As said by Brew Your Own's Mr. Wizard in this article link.  To get that kind of aeration you need either special equipment or aerate it more than just at the beginning. 

Again tho, this would make a fun experiment with pizza sauce :)  Thanks for the conversation I hope you are enjoying it as much as I am! :)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2006, 04:18:53 PM by kaltorak18 »