Author Topic: fermenting pizza sauce ?  (Read 5192 times)

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Offline November

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Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2006, 04:58:24 PM »
Well, I'm not an evolutionary scientist so I was going with what I heard from yeast producers.

You don't have to be an evolutionary scientist.  The average temperature at the Earth's surface wasn't all that different 5000 years ago.  There would be no need for the yeast to evolve in order to adapt to climate changes.

Notice also that they crush the grapes. [...] And again, during grape wine making you are taking a grape and crushing it.

To the best of my knowledge that's the only way to make wine.  If there was a way to make wine without crushing grapes, there would be a patent on the process for sure.

Of course you want fermentation to occur, and one and only one aeration step is for a healthy fermentation with less stressed yeast.  After that you do not want oxygen to touch it at all.  This can cause problems such as the oxidative stress you are talking about.

So by your own admission then, it would not be advisable to "whip" the wine, or in this case, tomato sauce in order to aerate it, because after crushing the tomato you don't want "oxygen to touch it at all."

Are you implying that what I stated was that fermentation shouldn't happen?

What you stated was, 'You also might want to try "whipping" your sauce a bit.. use a whisk or some other device and introduce air into the tomato sauce.  Yeast need oxygen just like we do for healthy fermentation.' which seemingly communicates that yeast need atmospheric oxygen for fermentation, when in fact that technically isn't fermentation at all.

And speaking of oxidative stress... you need to put a LOT of oxygen in the must for that to occur.

Did you read the document I linked to?  Yeast can experience oxidative stress (in addition to osmotic stress) just from the addition of a lot of sugar under complete anaerobic conditions.  2 millimoles (0.0682 grams) of hydrogen peroxide, which is equivalent to 0.032 grams of free oxygen, or 22.4525409 cubic cm per two liters of 1% yeast, will also cause oxidative stress.  That's not a LOT of oxygen.

- red.november
« Last Edit: December 29, 2006, 05:06:14 PM by November »


Offline November

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Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2006, 05:01:54 PM »
Thanks for the conversation I hope you are enjoying it as much as I am! :)

I'm glad you are enjoying it.

Offline kaltorak18

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Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2006, 05:26:23 PM »
You don't have to be an evolutionary scientist.  The average temperature at the Earth's surface wasn't all that different 5000 years ago.  There would be no need for the yeast to evolve in order to adapt to climate changes.

You are talking about wild yeast there though.  Yeast made for production have evolved into new strains.  They believe wine yeasts are selectively bred mead yeasts.  Now since humans are making mead again we are selectively breeding wine yeasts to become mead yeasts.  Interesting circle there :)

To the best of my knowledge that's the only way to make wine.  If there was a way to make wine without crushing grapes, there would be a patent on the process for sure.

Well yeah... I'm sorry I'm missing your point here.  The point I was making that by crushing the grape you introduce oxygen into the must.

So by your own admission then, it would not be advisable to "whip" the wine, or in this case, tomato sauce in order to aerate it, because after crushing the tomato you don't want "oxygen to touch it at all."

Again, as I stated before I was assuming a reduced tomato sauce made at home.  If you heat a aqueous liquid up, the dissolved gases expand and break out of solution.  Whipping it a little after it cools down will reintroduce some of that oxygen it's missing.

What you stated was, 'You also might want to try "whipping" your sauce a bit.. use a whisk or some other device and introduce air into the tomato sauce.  Yeast need oxygen just like we do for healthy fermentation.' which seemingly communicates that yeast need atmospheric oxygen for fermentation, when in fact that technically isn't fermentation at all.

I was oversimplifying it for ease of understanding.  A little more correct might be, "If your sauce is a homemade reduction of tomato puree, then once the sauce is cool you might try whipping the sauce a bit.  Use a whisk or some other device to introduce air into the tomato sauce.   This will allow the yeast to propagate to a larger amount and thus ensure a healthy fermentation."  That's better.  Still gets the point across and isn't muddled with technical info people don't usually listen to :)

Did you read the document I linked to?  Yeast can experience oxidative stress (in addition to osmotic stress) just from the addition of a lot of sugar under complete anaerobic conditions.  2 millimoles (0.0341 grams) of hydrogen peroxide, which is equivalent to 0.016 grams of free oxygen, or 11.22627 cubic cm per two liters of 1% yeast, will also cause oxidative stress.  That's not a LOT of oxygen.

- red.november

Yes, I did read the article.  The article is talking about introducing oxygen and other stress factors during biomass propagation which is when the yeast have already activated and started reproducing.  The aeration I'm talking about is before the yeast even go into the must or in this case the tomato sauce.  If the supply of oxygen is already there the yeast will use it to propagate.

Offline November

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Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2006, 06:13:46 PM »
You are talking about wild yeast there though.

Of course I'm talking about wild yeast.  They didn't engineer yeast 5000 years ago, and if you're talking about anything but wild yeast, evolution has nothing to do with how yeast performs today.  Breeding does not equate to evolution.

Well yeah... I'm sorry I'm missing your point here.  The point I was making that by crushing the grape you introduce oxygen into the must.

I was eluding to the fact that your statement had nothing to do with an engineered process.  Aeration is just an unintended consequence of the crushing process.

The article is talking about introducing oxygen and other stress factors during biomass propagation which is when the yeast have already activated and started reproducing.  The aeration I'm talking about is before the yeast even go into the must or in this case the tomato sauce.  If the supply of oxygen is already there the yeast will use it to propagate.

There's no difference in aeration before or after the yeast have been added.  The obvious reason the researchers aerate after the yeast addition, is because there's no way to establish a gene expression baseline if they aerated before the yeast addition.

- red.november

Offline kaltorak18

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Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2007, 12:57:47 PM »
Of course I'm talking about wild yeast.  They didn't engineer yeast 5000 years ago, and if you're talking about anything but wild yeast, evolution has nothing to do with how yeast performs today.  Breeding does not equate to evolution.


It may have been a wrong word choice, but yeast cultures have definitely changed over the years.  In fact.. I'm not an evolutionary scientist, but these guys are Link to Genome.org.  They say that yeast have been evolving and they're starting to track the changes and what makes each type different via the DNA of the organism.  Different yeast for different regions, it wouldn't be unheard of for these to cause different optimal fermentation temperatures.

I was eluding to the fact that your statement had nothing to do with an engineered process.  Aeration is just an unintended consequence of the crushing process.


Whether or not the process was intentional wasn't under contention.  It would be foolish to think that just because the process was unintentional that it had no effect on the resulting fermentation.

There's no difference in aeration before or after the yeast have been added.  The obvious reason the researchers aerate after the yeast addition, is because there's no way to establish a gene expression baseline if they aerated before the yeast addition.

- red.november


There is a difference.  And there is plenty of information out there to support this.  I'll post just a few as I do not have time to regurgitate every place it's documented.

How to Brew by John Palmer free internet edition.
Basic Brewing Radio check out the interview with Dave Logsdon from Wyeast, it's in three parts starting on Oct 27, 2005 and ending on Nov 10, 2005.
A how to

Anyway, that's enough for now.  You can find plenty of other examples out there on the internet and in other books on the subject. 

Offline November

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Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2007, 03:02:37 PM »
It may have been a wrong word choice, but yeast cultures have definitely changed over the years.

I'm not talking about adaptation.  Of course yeast has "changed" over the years, and so has man, but we still breath oxygen, drink water, eat relatively the same food, suffer heat stroke at relatively the same temperature, and suffer hypothermia at relatively the same temperature.  Yeast still need oxygen, consume relatively the same food, and suffer thermal shock at relatively the same temperatures.  I don't know why you keep bringing up evolution as some kind of evidence contrary to facts you already conceded to, which is that yeast used in wine making are naturally comfortable at fermenting at room temperature.

It would be foolish to think that just because the process was unintentional that it had no effect on the resulting fermentation.

Who has claimed that there is no effect?  I've been saying all along that it's not desirable because of its effect.  The reasons for desiring aeration have changed since the beginning.  The purpose for aeration, intentional or not, was to help the minute quantity of yeast found naturally on the fruit build up in numbers as quickly as possible.  These days, a winemaker can simply add as much yeast as he or she wants from the beginning.

There is a difference.  And there is plenty of information out there to support this.

What are you talking about?  There is only a difference if you wait long enough for the yeast to lose their mitochondria and grow promitochondria.  That takes a while.  Once that point arrives, sure it makes a difference.  That's what I've been trying to say with regard to the oxidative stress.

- red.november

Offline November

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Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2007, 03:35:38 PM »
kaltorak18,

To refocus this conversation, all I really want to know is why you said:

You also might want to try "whipping" your sauce a bit.. use a whisk or some other device and introduce air into the tomato sauce.  Yeast need oxygen just like we do for healthy fermentation.

I've already pointed out that the byproducts are largely acids.  Tomato sauce does not need more acid.  If the goal isn't to start fermentation as quickly as possible, so that the tomato puree will still exhibit a "pizza sauce" level of freshness, what is it?  Your suggestion struck me as counterproductive.

- red.november

Offline abc

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Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2007, 12:14:40 PM »
my sauce ferments if i have left over sauce from which i dipped the spoon that I laddled the sauce onto the dough, back into the sauce bowl. 

you folks like to ferment your sauce?

Offline November

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Re: fermenting pizza sauce ?
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2007, 12:28:38 PM »
abc,

Although I'm always conscious of the possibility that some yeast might get transfered from the ladle back to the sauce container, I've never experienced any unintentional sauce fermentation, unless it was latent.  Depending on how recently the sauce was made though, I also rinse off the ladle in between dippings.  If it's older sauce that I'm about to use up within a day or two, I don't bother rinsing.  As you can probably tell, fermented sauce is not my preference, but I understand a lot of people have found to like it because their favorite pizza restaurant has it, whether for sanitation or aroma/flavor enhancement reasons.

- red.november


 

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