Author Topic: Stuffed... my christmas pie  (Read 7404 times)

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Online pkasten

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Stuffed... my christmas pie
« on: December 26, 2006, 10:24:29 PM »
Well, with a little help from you guys and advice from a few fellow chefs, I've nailed the flakey chicago style crust..  the sauce was great.. everything was right on.   Obviously, filling a 3" deep 10" springform, I went a little overboard sizewise, but hey.. I just couldn't help it.  Will post again with specific recipes/technique/etc.  I kept good notes and have a ton more pictures of the whole process..



Offline Buffalo

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2006, 09:18:30 AM »
Good Morning pkasten;
Your chicago style looks great; I am looking forward to your posting of your process and other pictures.
Buffalo

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2006, 04:37:17 PM »
Dough (after rolling and cutting, this produced about 4 oz. of scrap.  I used a 10" x 3" stainless steel springform pan):

4.5 c         AP Flour
4    tsp      Kosher salt
2    tsp      IDY
1    Tbsp   Sugar
6    Tbsp   Corn Oil
6    Tbsp   Olive Oil
4    Tbsp   Shortening
1.25c        Ice cold water (about 40%)

Sauce:

2 cans Cento Chefs Cut tomatoes (drained of all puree and hand crushed)
1 tsp Salt
1 tsp Sugar
1 Tbsp Sriracha (hot thai chile sauce)

Toppings:

2 #  Tillamook Mozzarella cheese, grated
2 oz.  Pecorino Romano, microplaned
14 oz.  Applegate Farms natural pepperoni



Okay, here goes.  The biggest difference in my pie was that I made the crust using the biscuit method, rather than the straight dough method others here are using.  This means that I put the dry ingredients (flour, salt, sugar, yeast) in the mixer first, thoroughly mixed them, and then added all of the fat, mixing on the slow speed until I had roughly pea sized bits of butter and fat. 

At that point, I added my water, which I had measured and put in the freezer before measuring the rest of the ingredients.  Ice cold water is very important in making pie or biscuits because it helps you to retain that flakey texture.  I mixed on slow until just combined, scraped the bowl, and repeated.  All together, this was about thirty seconds of mixing. 

I covered the bowl and stuck it in the fridge overnight.  Twelve hours later, I removed it from the fridge and let it sit out for about an hour before scaling, shaping, and rolling the dough.  I laid it over the pan, and, without stretching any further, fitted it neatly into the pan. 

I allowed it to overlap the top edge of the pan a bit to hold the walls up as I worked, very tightly packing down three layers of cheese, with two layers of pepperoni between them.  I rolled out the smaller ball for the top crust and pinched it into the sides.  I then docked the top crust, poking a few dozen holes in it with the tip of my knife, so that any steam forming inside the pie would not push up on the top crust and create a bubble.  I had this problem on my first pie.  It was no big deal to fix, but  I thought I'd just avoid it entirely.

I then added my sauce, which I'd made the previous night by hand crushing the tomatoes and stirring in the other ingredients.  No cooking involved.

I baked the pie at 400 degrees (confirmed by oven thermometer) for 30 minutes with foil covering the top, then removed the foil and baked an additional 30 minutes.  Since the sides don't brown nearly as fast as the top, I removed it from the oven and took off the side of the springform pan.  After another 30 minutes of baking, I had a beautifully browned pie with the cheese inside just melted and hot.  Obviously, the huge mass of this pie made the long cooking time necessary.  I would expect a more reasonable pizza produced by the same method to take half that time.

Here are a few more pics.  I've got a picture of about every stage of the process, so feel free to ask.


Online pkasten

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2006, 04:48:29 PM »
...

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2006, 06:09:38 PM »
Paul,

Very nice results.

When I saw the shiny spring-form pan in your earlier photos, I wondered how the outside of the crust would brown. I have several pans that I can use to make deep-dish pies, and one of them is the one shown in the photo below. It is a Cuisinart dark, straight-sided, coated spring-form pan (9" diameter, 3" deep). One advantage of such a pan, apart from the fact that it conducts heat better than a shiny metal pan and promotes better browning, is that the pie can be removed from the oven toward the end of baking and checked to see if it is in fact done. If not, the pan can be latched again and returned to the oven. Also, with the spring-form pan, it is not necessary to use the full depth. The height of the pie can be whatever you want it to be, up to the maximum depth of the pan.

In the case of the Cuisinart pan I have, the instructions that came with the pan did not specify the maximum oven temperature that the coating can withstand. So, I try not to exceed 450 degrees F. At normal oven temperatures and bake times that are used for deep-dish, this has not been a problem.

Peter

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2007, 08:36:27 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the compliment and advice.  I do own a set of good coated black non-stick springforms, but had the same problem with them.  Sure, the difference between the top and side browning was not as exaggerated as with the shiny steel pan, but I still had to take it apart and finish the pies with the sides of the pans removed. 

Quote
is that the pie can be removed from the oven toward the end of baking and checked to see if it is in fact done

not sure I follow ya here, though.  the most sensible way to track the progress of the inside of the pie seemed to be a probe thermometer inserted in the center.  i had no trouble pulling the pizza out of the oven with the sides off though.   i did worry for a few minutes that the sides would collapse under the weight of two pounds of melted cheese, nearly a pound of pepperoni, and a few cups of tomato sauce, but it worked out just fine. 

when the crust was about where I wanted it, a check of the internal temperature read about 150, telling me that the cheese was melting and hot, so I don't feel that the choice of pan limited what i could do in any way.

paul


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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2007, 08:37:55 PM »
What I was happiest with about this pie was the crust.  I've pointed out a few times now that cutting the fat into the dry before adding the water, as you would for a biscuit or pie crust makes a lot more sense for flaky deep dish crust than the straight dough method that I keep seeing here, but nobody seems to be trying it.  I'm telling you guys, I absolutely nailed the texture and flavor of the crust.  Give it a shot.

Offline illinismitty

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2007, 11:34:15 PM »
paul,

did i read this correctly? 90 total minutes baking? By the way, it looks really good. I may try your biscuit method, as I am a fan of the flaky pastry like crust

smitty

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2007, 11:46:10 PM »
Paul,

Can you tell me how you estimated how much dough to set aside or carve out of the total dough to use for the top crust layer? And is that layer of the same thickness as the rest of the crust at the sides and bottom of the pan?

Peter
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 10:09:44 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline chiguy

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2007, 12:18:51 AM »
. I may try your biscuit method, as I am a fan of the flaky pastry like crust
smitty
You will not be disappointed, ihave been cutting oil in the(flour,yeast,salt,) dry ingrediants for over a year now with excellent results. This is the cracked code of deep dish. Although i got the idea from a pie crust article along with many trials.
 The basic premise is that when the oil is added directly to the flour,  the oil soaks the flour lubricating the gluten strands so they have a harder time attaching to each other. This process will serve two important functions. The first is that as the gluten strands become lubricated the dough can tolerate longer mix times without becoming bready. The longer mix time will also help with panning the dough which seems to be a problem with many here. The dough will stay up on the side of the pan. And last the dough produces a very flakey crust even with lower oil amounts than often used here. Congradulations Paul on cracking the deep dish code, i noticed from a few of your post you were itching to tell your new found secret.    Chiguy
« Last Edit: January 11, 2007, 12:23:27 AM by chiguy »


Offline Randy

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2007, 07:04:03 AM »
I also add the oil to the flour yeast and salt and using the paddle in my KitchenAid mixer, then after a few minutes on stir, I add the water.  From Paul I picked up the spring pan which is great and adding a teaspoon of sugar.

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2007, 06:29:13 PM »
Peter,

I did not weigh it, but my guess would be that the ball used for the top crust was at most around 20% of the total dough.  It was rolled much thinner.  The bottom crust was rolled to roughly 1/4", while the top was about 1/8".

Paul

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2007, 06:40:24 PM »
Randy,

The ice cold water is also an important factor in this preparation.  I usually measure the water first and stick it in the freezer while I get everything else together.  One note about this dough, the oil/shortening level is so high, that while resting overnight, it actually released about 1 tsp of oil back into the bowl... so this is about as rich as it can possibly be... unless you reduce the oil and increase the shortening.   a scary, artery-clogging thought, huh  :chef:

Paul

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2007, 08:47:49 PM »
Smitty,

Yeah, it was 90 minutes at 400 degrees.  This thing was way overboard.. Two full pounds of mozzarella, forteen ounces of pepperoni, two cans of tomato strips... lots of mass, so it took a long time to cook.  Fortunately, the dough stood up amazingly well against that super-long cook time.  It was tender and flaky, and not dried out.  Well, I guess fat doesn't evaporate, so that makes sense..

Paul

Offline Randy

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2007, 09:12:12 PM »
Paul, I will try the ice water on my next pizza.  Take a look at the oil ratios Loo and DKM use for another angle.  DKM suggested using corn oil and Loo suggested a combination of nonvirgin olive oil and corn oil.  If the Crisco is making you think twice, I have used the zero transfat Crisco for the last year in all my baking and find it identical to the blue label.

Steve had talked about Papa Dels having milk which be an interesting twist.

As a point of interest in terms of ratios here is a typical Southern biscuit recipe.
Biscuit recipe
Preheat  oven to 500F

8.5 oz WhiteLily unbleached self-rising flour (bleached will do just fine)
1.4 oz Zero Transfat Crisco
5 oz Milk

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2007, 08:15:06 PM »
Randy,

Yeah, I would not use virgin olive oil for this either.  The flavor of a good oil would be wasted on this application.  I did try one with all olive oil/no corn oil, and found the olive oil flavor too strong. 

Don't worry, I'm not afraid of a little transfat.  Personally, I wish we could go back to using lard in deep friers.  Once the transfat law goes into effect in NY, the french fries will never be as good. 

Actually, the idea of using more shortening than oil in order to up the total fat in the dough seems interesting to me as a chef.  Obviously, it's not exactly what anyone is doing in a pizza shop in Chicago, but it may produce a delicious extreme version of this style.

paul

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2007, 09:26:40 PM »
heh.. this is a bit repetitive, as I mentioned it in the Healthy Pizza thread yesterday, but this one comes in at about:

8140 cal
571 g fat
20500 mg sodium

cut in eight slices, that's:

1018 cal
71.4 g fat
2256 mg sodium

each.... and I bet I can make it worse :chef:

paul

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2007, 10:21:51 PM »
20500 mg sodium

52.11g of salt!  (I arrive at 60.24g by the way, but I'm not positive on the sodium in your pepperoni.)  Each slice contains 2.6 times more sodium than all the sodium a 2000 calorie diet is supposed to have in a day.  The fat is outrageous too, but at least you can burn that off with extra excercise.  "I bet I can make it worse"  Not much worse.

I like Applegate Farms meats though.  I use their bacon for my semi-annual breakfast pizza.  At least you have that going for you.

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Offline lilbuddypizza

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2007, 11:48:22 PM »
If calories don't bother you, try whole milk mozzarella. Makes a HUGE difference IMHO, especially on thin crust pies.
Za looks great BTW!

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Re: Stuffed... my christmas pie
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2007, 02:04:08 AM »

?? 20500 mg = 20.5 g last time I checked.  nutritional info is available on applegate farms pepperoni.  I pretty much stuck to numbers from the specific products I used... king arthur, crisco, etc.

well, I got a few different numbers on the locatelli pecorino romano.  the salt is diamond crystal kosher.  The difference is most likely in the tomatoes.  I halved it, as I used all of the juice and puree elsewhere. 

as far as bacon goes, I prefer the Niman Ranch bacon to the Applegate Farms... give it a shot, it's good stuff.   but their pepperoni is excellent.  we do butcher whole heritage pigs at work.. what can be done with some pork belly and a little knowledge is pretty cool.

i don't think I can really come up much on sodium.  It was well seasoned...  and I'm really pushing the limits of what the dough would take fat-wise.  I am thinking, though, that if I substitute more saturated (solid at room temp) fat (i.e.butter/shortening) for olive and corn oil, I can increase the fat %, lower hydration, and achieve an even richer crust that will prove delicious. 

whole milk mozz is a place to pick up a little fat and calories, and certainly some flavor.  i didn't use a tillamook product because i feel they're god's gift to cheese... but at two pounds it would get me another 140 cal and 6 g fat.. negligible really once you get into these kind of numbers.

ultimately, my point is that I am not trying to replicate any specific stuffed pizza, but rather working within that style to make it as amazing as it possibly can be.  Pizzerias can't do that... unless you're willing to spend forty bucks on a ten inch pie and wait 90 minutes for it... i suppose it could be called an exaggeration of the style... taking all of its best qualities and pushing them to the limit.

paul