Sourdough pizza crust

[YoMomma]

I frequently experiment w/ sourdough - in pizza crust as well.  I love the added flavor from the sourdough when combined w/ an overnight retard.  Anyone else experimenting w/ sourdough?

[lloydl2]

Yes.  just started.
Background:  I make napoletana pizza on a 2 stone pizza pro (high temp 850 +)  I use molina tipo 00 pizza flour.  I was getting awesome results with IDY and Peter Rhinehart bread bakers apprentice dough recipe which is about 70% hydration.  I started a sourdough culture a couple of weeks ago and have it going pretty good.  I started with organic whole wheat flour and once going feed it KA all purpose every 12 hours.  It triples to quadruples in size in that timeframe and hold the rise very well. 

Yesterday I made pizza using the starter, creating a preferment with the Molina flour and water and then a final dough.  The results not enough rise (oven pop) as compared to the IDY.  tasted excellent, took longer to cook and less browning and charring.  crust was more well done and crisper though.

So here is/was my recipe
starter at 100% hydration  60 grams
preferement  128 grams of molina tipo 00 and 128 grams of water.  Overnight rise about 14 - to 15 hours (not much rise but bubbly
final dough added 633 grams of molina tipo 00 and 389 g of water and 20 g of salt.  Bulk rise for 2 hours ball and left out for 2 - 3 hours then refrigerated over night.  Took out and let sit in dough pans for about 6 hours the next day. 

Would like to improve browning and charring  a good part of the outer crust was white with only light browning  and the crumb didn't have any large holes just small.  The crust was tasty, a little crisp and chewy versus the very light airy crumb achieved with IDY single mix and cold ferment of a couple to 3 days.

suggestions always welcome... thanks

Lloyd

[pizzablogger]

I frequently experiment w/ sourdough - in pizza crust as well.  I love the added flavor from the sourdough when combined w/ an overnight retard.  Anyone else experimenting w/ sourdough?

Welcome to the sourdough ranks, YoMamma.

A good number of members here have been using natural leavening (sourdough) to make pizzas. Some of the more notable members using sourdough for pizza crust (either exclusively or some of the time) are members Bill/SFNM, TxCraig1, Jackie Tran, Dellavecchia and Foolish Poolish, among others. You would do well to look at their posts and pictures.....these members in particular can be found often in the Neapolitan forum, although Jackie (Chau) is all over the damned place and can be found in the NY Style forum as well.

There are other noteworthy members using it at times as well. Personally, I have been using sourdough to make pizza for the past few years as well.

One of the earlier in-depth threads involving sourdough is the Caputo 00 Pizza & Biga thread started by our beloved Pete-zza here:
 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.0.html --K

[dellavecchia]

With that large a percentage of levain, you might try timing the dough to have more bulk rise room temp, maybe 4 hours. You may even be ready to bake at that point. The reason you are not getting the oven kick you want is because you are retarding the dough before it has time to develop. Also, you did not describe what your mixing regimen is.

Also, the 6 hours out after the cold retard may be exhausting the dough.

John

[texmex]

Yes, I was just posting about it over here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14714.0.html

I used an unfed starter straight from the fridge at 20% with virtually no mixing and a few days cold ferment.  I'll complete my post about this in that thread once I get my pics resized, and figure out the timeframes sometime tomorrow.

Meantime, I appreciate any insight y'all have on formulas, cuz I'm hooked on starter dough.

[TXCraig1]

Mine are a little different method/style than texmex's. I just posted some new stuff here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14249.msg147743.html#msg147743. I'm happy to answer any questions and help however I can.

Craig

[lloydl2]

thanks for all the input as my sourdough experimentation continues.  I did have a question on the reply by John that follows:

1) when you say large % of levain are you referring to the 60 g of starter or the 128 g of flour and 128g of water added for the preferment?  If it's too large what would be a more appropriate amount?  I suspect I left the dough out too long after taking out of the refrig and/or let the preferment rise too long and didn't let the final dough rise enough.  Next time I'm thinking of skipping the preferment and just incorporating double the starter 120g into the final dough total of 791 g flour and 547g water and do a 1 hour rest with stretching and folding every 10 - 15 mins then a shorter bulk rise2 hours,  a final stretch and fold and then a 3 - 4 hour rise at least 1/3 increase in volume after balling before refrigerating the balls

Oh, I also split my starter yesterday into 2 and I'm feeding 1 ka all purpose and the other Molina di pordenone tipo 00 pizza flour.  Both seem to be doing very well...  In my research on sourdough I've found numerous and conflicting ways to do sourdough  preferment, no preferment, large amounts of starter up to 30% of total dough or is it total flour?  down to a teaspoon of starter.  So much to learn, so little time...

thanks for the input everyone.  More advice is always welcome.   

Lloyd

from John:
With that large a percentage of levain, you might try timing the dough to have more bulk rise room temp, maybe 4 hours. You may even be ready to bake at that point. The reason you are not getting the oven kick you want is because you are retarding the dough before it has time to develop. Also, you did not describe what your mixing regimen is.

Also, the 6 hours out after the cold retard may be exhausting the dough.

John

[TXCraig1]

In my research on sourdough I've found numerous and conflicting ways to do sourdough  preferment, no preferment, large amounts of starter up to 30% of total dough or is it total flour?  down to a teaspoon of starter. So much to learn, so little time...

My $0.02 - Small quantities (I seem to get my best resluts in the range 1.5 - 1.7% of the flour weight) of starter and longer fermentation times (mid-60's F) yield the best results in all respects. I would avoid refrigeration if at all possible.

And, it will take some time to get it just how you want it.

CL

[texmex]

My $0.02 - Small quantities (I seem to get my best resluts in the range 1.5 - 1.7% of the flour weight) of starter and longer fermentation times (mid-60's F) yield the best results in all respects. I would avoid refrigeration if at all possible.

And, it will take some time to get it just how you want it.

CL

Well, this just flies in the face of my experiments with 20% unfed starter and nothing but refridge for days on end and the only room temp rise being just before baking.  (approximately 1 to 1 1/2 hours)

Aha, I see you guys are discussing napolitana style....which is a different thing altogether...and no comparison to whatever style dough I made for my recent successful home oven bakes.

[lloydl2]

Hey Tx craig  is the 1.5 - 1.7% starter you recommend a percent of total dough weight (flour, water, salt, starter) or percent of just the total flour?  Also what are the rise times... .if I want to have pizza sat eve at 6pm  what's a typical timeline for the prep?  Thanks once again!  Also are you using the small quantity of starter to make a preferment (biga, poolish, sponge) first or just adding to the final dough?

thanks..

Lloyd

[TXCraig1]

Aha, I see you guys are discussing napolitana style....which is a different thing altogether...and no comparison to whatever style dough I made for my recent successful home oven bakes.

Yes, I should have been more clear. Your pies are looking great.

CL

[TXCraig1]

Hey Tx craig  is the 1.5 - 1.7% starter you recommend a percent of total dough weight (flour, water, salt, starter) or percent of just the total flour?  Also what are the rise times... .if I want to have pizza sat eve at 6pm  what's a typical timeline for the prep?  Thanks once again!  Also are you using the small quantity of starter to make a preferment (biga, poolish, sponge) first or just adding to the final dough?

1.5 - 1.7% of the flour weight. I start with the water (~40-50F or so), dissolve in the salt, mix in the starter (don't worry much about getting it dissolved in - I just kind of cut it up with a spatula a little), dump in the flour, and mix until it comes together and gets basically smooth - just a couple minutes in my KA K5 mixer with the dough hook. I give it a few kneads on the counter, a 20 minute rest, a few more kneads (it should be pretty smooth now), and then into a plastic box for the bulk ferment.

For pies at 6pm, the day before, I would make the dough at 8 or 9 am. Let it bulk ferment for 24 hours or so at ~64F (I put a half gallon jug of frozen water in a large ice chest to hold the temp). It will show very little rise - but lots of tiny tiny bubbles will be starting to form – at the end of the 24 hours. I use a clear plastic tub so I can keep an eye on them. At this point I ball it up and put it into individual Rubbermaid tubs and let it rise at about 77F (my room temp all year). I can start making the pies after 6 hours or so, but 8 or 9 is often better. That would put you about 6pm. I generally have a 6 hour+ window from that point to bake before the dough is getting overrisen. I like the individual plastic tubs because you can see the bubble formation and have a really good idea when things are ready.

You’ll see lots of medium sized bubbles and lots of small bubbles, and the dough will have increased in volume by 1.7X or so when it is ready to go.

Differences in our culture, temperatures, flour, etc. could meaningfully affect these times. I’d start here and adjust accordingly. It will probably take some experimentation.

CL

[TXCraig1]

I posted some pictures here that might help: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14356.0.html

[dellavecchia]

thanks for all the input as my sourdough experimentation continues.  I did have a question on the reply by John that follows:

1) when you say large % of levain are you referring to the 60 g of starter or the 128 g of flour and 128g of water added for the preferment?  If it's too large what would be a more appropriate amount?  I suspect I left the dough out too long after taking out of the refrig and/or let the preferment rise too long and didn't let the final dough rise enough.  Next time I'm thinking of skipping the preferment and just incorporating double the starter 120g into the final dough total of 791 g flour and 547g water and do a 1 hour rest with stretching and folding every 10 - 15 mins then a shorter bulk rise2 hours,  a final stretch and fold and then a 3 - 4 hour rise at least 1/3 increase in volume after balling before refrigerating the balls

Lloyd - When you add starter to a portion of the flour and water from the recipe and let it ferment, it is called, among other things, a levain. If you had commercial yeast instead of a natural starter, it might be called a poolish. It is all preferment.

You have a 40% levain as it applies to final dough flour. If you want to go the preferment route, which is closer to bread making, I would skip the cold retard completely, and do your stretch and folds/bulk over the course of a few hours, then ball. I would say you would be ready to bake after another 3 hours if your room temp is in the upper 70's, but that is a guess.

You might also go the route that Craig outlined, which will produce excellent results as well. I am around 2-3% water weight right now for 20 hours total ferment this time of year.

John

[lloydl2]

what's the hydration level of your starter mine is 100% (50% water 50% flour) it sounds like yours is thicker?  Do you feed your starter caputo or something different?  My dough is 69% hydration (Rhinehart recipe  looks like yours is 64% hydration.  I've found at least with idy that the higher hydration makes a more airy and tender crust...at the expense of being harder to work with especially with the molina tipo 00 flour which isn't near as absorbent as the KA all purpose I used to use...

thanks for all your help...

Lloyd

[TXCraig1]

what's the hydration level of your starter mine is 100% (50% water 50% flour) it sounds like yours is thicker?  Do you feed your starter caputo or something different?  My dough is 69% hydration (Rhinehart recipe  looks like yours is 64% hydration.  I've found at least with idy that the higher hydration makes a more airy and tender crust...at the expense of being harder to work with especially with the molina tipo 00 flour which isn't near as absorbent as the KA all purpose I used to use...

I don't know what the % hydration of my starter is. It's a little thicker than pancake batter. I don't think it matters much (within a reasonable range) in the formula quantities I'm talking about. I've been making dough between 60-62% hydration lately. I used to be at 64% with KAAP flour, but I'm liking it a little lower now that I've switched to Caputo.

What are you using for an oven? What sort of time/temp?

CL

[lloydl2]

I have a 2 stone pizza pro with a natural gas burner.  It can reach over 1000 degrees floor temp and about + 150/200 air temp.  Can only cook 1 pie at a time.  WWW.2stonepg.com 

I'd love a wbo but just don't have the space. We live in a condo and only have a small patio which has the Pizza oven a huge weber grill and a primo oval ceramic smoker... cookin be me!

I usually cook the pies at about 850 to 900 and they cook in 1.5 to 2 mins.

Are you feeding your starter KAAP or the Caputo? 

[TXCraig1]

This recipe/method should work well for you in your 2-stone. I feed my starter KAAP or KABF - whatever is handy.

CL