Author Topic: peculiar taste in pizza  (Read 8422 times)

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Offline November

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Re: peculiar taste in pizza
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2007, 08:57:30 PM »
"Since, according to the olive industries' standards, Extra Virgin Olive Oil is considered unrefined, could you please refer to it from now on as Highly Refined Extra Virgin Unrefined Olive Oil?"

No, because there's no such category as, "Extra Virgin Unrefined Olive Oil."  When I say extra virgin olive oil, I mean extra virgin olive and not some other kind of oil.  When I say highly refined extra virgin olive oil, I mean extra virgin olive oil that has been refined to a state of purity beyond that of normal extra virgin olive oil.  If I had said highly refined refined olive oil, I would have meant refined olive oil that has been refined to a state of purity beyond that of normal refined olive oil.  Have you stopped to consider why some extra virgin olive oils are lighter than others?  Not all extra virgin olive oils are manufactured at the same level of purity.

'My point was that your use of the term "refined" changed the character of the oil to the extent that you were representing it as something that it wasn't.'

I don't think anyone can miss such an overstated point.  I just can not recognize it as valid.  What I said was precisely what I meant, and precisely represented the item for what it is: an extra virgin olive oil that has been refined to a higher level of purity.

"I'm not familar with the term endocentric"

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/linguistics/lectures/05lect11.html

'I guess a better analogy would be if I were to ask you if you have a Macintosh or a PC and you replied that you have a "Macintosh PC." Your answer would be technically correct, while still being confusing and also contradictory.'

That is still not a valid analogy.  "Macintosh" as you presented it was a singular noun, not an option for describing a noun.  In other words, "Macintosh" cannot be used as both a noun and an adjective.

'I also think that if you filter EVOO to the extent that it raises the smoke point (creating your "refined extra virgin olive oil"), you're going to have a lighter colored, less flavorful oil that you could no longer sell as EVOO.'

The next time you go to the store, look very closely at the extra virgin olive oils.  You will notice quite a range in coloration.  Some of them are almost as light in color as light olive oil.  Remember, extra virgin olive oil is classified as such because of its acid content, not because of its purity.

- red.november


Offline kling

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Re: peculiar taste in pizza
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2007, 09:45:17 PM »
I'm a big fan of olive oil. (I also like olives.)

Offline AKSteve

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Re: peculiar taste in pizza
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2007, 11:30:49 PM »

'I also think that if you filter EVOO to the extent that it raises the smoke point (creating your "refined extra virgin olive oil"), you're going to have a lighter colored, less flavorful oil that you could no longer sell as EVOO.'

The next time you go to the store, look very closely at the extra virgin olive oils.  You will notice quite a range in coloration.  Some of them are almost as light in color as light olive oil.  Remember, extra virgin olive oil is classified as such because of its acid content, not because of its purity.


OK, this is getting to the point where it's just an argument. I don't really associate this message forum with nasty arguments so I'm not going to try to escalate things.

I simply don't think there's any such thing as refined extra virgin olive oil. As far as the color goes: "The color of olive oil is dependant on the pigments in the fruit - Green Olives give a green oil because of the high chlorophyll content. Ripe olives give a yellow oil because of the carotenoid (yellow red) pigments. The color of the oil is influenced by the exact combination and proportions of pigments. A simple equation would be Color = Chlorophyll (Green) + Carotenoids (Yellow red) + other pigments. Color is not an official standard but it certainly excites the consumer." Professor Stan Kailis, University of Western Australia, Perth, WA

I think EVOO is, by definition, unrefined and minimally processed. I think when you talk about a refined EVOO (which I don't think exists), you're referring to a highly filtered EVOO, which would still be unrefined and wouldn't have a smoke point much higher than standard EVOO. If you were to significantly alter the EVOO to substantially increase the smoke point, I think it would be altered to the point that it would no longer be considered EVOO. When you talk about increasing it's "purity" by refining it, I think you would actually make it less pure because you would be removing the pure flavor & color of the EVOO.

You can add whatever adjectives in front of the term "extra virgin olive oil" that you'd like. The simple fact is, you can't really do very much to "refine" it and still call it EVOO. It just is what it is, which is unrefined.

Steve
« Last Edit: January 05, 2007, 11:41:32 PM by AKSteve »

Offline November

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Re: peculiar taste in pizza
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2007, 12:27:18 AM »
This is as simple as I can make it.  As it is defined by Dictionary.com: reˇfine, adj. to bring to a fine or a pure state; free from impurities: to refine metal, sugar, or petroleum.  "Chlorophyll (Green) + Carotenoids (Yellow red) + other pigments" + flesh debris + starches + ... = impurities, which contribute to oil smoke.  "Washing, decanting, centrifuging and filtering" is indeed a refinement process, and is performed on all extra virgin olive oil.  To the degree which it is washed, decanted, centrifuged and filtered, I retain the latitude in describing how much the oil is refined in this way.  "Refined olive oil is the olive oil obtained from virgin olive oils by refining methods which do not lead to alterations in the initial glyceridic structure." - from your IOOC link.  Notice that it qualifies the refinement method, and doesn't just say, "refined."  It's only a specific kind of refinement ("which do not lead to alterations in the initial glyceridic structure") that forces a virgin olive oil into the category of refined olive oil.  If the IOOC, which you seemed so bold to link to, freely implies that there's more than one kind of refinement, why can't you?

- red.november

EDIT: (2.1.2) http://www.internationaloliveoil.org/downloads/NORMAEN1.pdf
« Last Edit: January 06, 2007, 12:34:19 AM by November »

Offline AKSteve

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Re: peculiar taste in pizza
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2007, 01:11:05 AM »
This is as simple as I can make it.  As it is defined by Dictionary.com: reˇfine, adj. to bring to a fine or a pure state; free from impurities: to refine metal, sugar, or petroleum.  "Chlorophyll (Green) + Carotenoids (Yellow red) + other pigments" + flesh debris + starches + ... = impurities, which contribute to oil smoke.  "Washing, decanting, centrifuging and filtering" is indeed a refinement process, and is performed on all extra virgin olive oil.  To the degree which it is washed, decanted, centrifuged and filtered, I retain the latitude in describing how much the oil is refined in this way.  "Refined olive oil is the olive oil obtained from virgin olive oils by refining methods which do not lead to alterations in the initial glyceridic structure." - from your IOOC link.  Notice that it qualifies the refinement method, and doesn't just say, "refined."  It's only a specific kind of refinement ("which do not lead to alterations in the initial glyceridic structure") that forces a virgin olive oil into the category of refined olive oil.  If the IOOC, which you seemed so bold to link to, freely implies that there's more than one kind of refinement, why can't you?

- red.november

EDIT: (2.1.2) http://www.internationaloliveoil.org/downloads/NORMAEN1.pdf

You're not making this simple at all. You're stubbornly refusing to admit that the term "refined" should not be applied to EVOO. We appear to be looking at different revisions of the same IOOC document. In any case, every description of Extra Virgin Olive Oil specifically avoids using the term "refined." And there is a specific description of Refined Olive Oil. If you want to lump the minimal processing allowed to EVOO under the term "refinement," that might be a correct use of the term. But the resulting oil should never be referred to as "refined" if you want to call it EVOO.

As for the IOOC quotation that you gave, you're correct that it implies that there's more than one kind of refinement. The version you quoted gave a very brief description of the refining process which only mentions that the triglyceride profile must remain unchanged.  Here's a more in-depth description, listing the different types of refining that can be done to "Refined Olive Oil":

"Refined Olive Oil: Oil obtained from virgin oils by refining methods that do not alter the initial glyceride structure. It has a free acidity of less than 0.3 and must conform to the other standards within its category. The origin of refined olive oil must not come from the solvent extraction of pomace. The refining process usually consists of treating bad virgin oil/lampante with sodium hydroxide to neutralize the free acidity, washing, drying, odor removal, color removal, and filtration. In the process, the oil can be heated to as high as 430°F (220°C) under a vacuum to remove all of the volatile components. Refined olive oil is usually odorless, tasteless, and colorless. It is not fit for human consumption in many countries including the EU." This is from: http://cesonoma.ucdavis.edu/hortic/pdf/iocc_standards_purity_grade.pdf

If you want to put something like that on your pizza, fine. I'm going to stick with pure, unrefined Extra Virgin Olive Oil.

Steve
« Last Edit: January 06, 2007, 01:13:09 AM by AKSteve »

Offline November

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Re: peculiar taste in pizza
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2007, 01:28:43 AM »
What I am stubbornly refusing to do is absolve the accusation you're thrusting by breaking the English language.  I am not going to placate to someone supporting such a diminishing notion.

- red.november

Offline vitus

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Re: peculiar taste in pizza
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2007, 04:37:38 AM »
I'm a big fan of olive oil. (I also like olives.)
Me too...  :)

Offline AKSteve

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Re: peculiar taste in pizza
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2007, 09:27:13 AM »
What I am stubbornly refusing to do is absolve the accusation you're thrusting by breaking the English language.  I am not going to placate to someone supporting such a diminishing notion.

- red.november

Yes, clearly only an English expert would think the concept of highly refined, unrefined Extra Virgin Olive Oil isn't an oxymoron. I even stuck all the adjectives up front this time to make you happy.

Steve

Offline turbosundance

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Re: peculiar taste in pizza
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2007, 06:39:52 PM »
I made a couple 14" pizzas  tonight.  They were quite good.  I used some extra light Bertolli olive oil for the dough and sauce and the funny taste is gone.  I also tried out my modified bread maker to knead the dough and it worked perfect.  I modified it so that it kneads whenever it is plugged in.  No more heating element or having to wait 30 minutes for it to start kneading.  Took like 5 minutes of kneading to make perfect dough.  I dont have any pictures unfortunately.  My digital camera doesn't work anymore.
Ryan

Offline vitus

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Re: peculiar taste in pizza
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2007, 07:48:35 PM »
I made a couple 14" pizzas  tonight.  They were quite good.  I used some extra light Bertolli olive oil for the dough and sauce and the funny taste is gone. 
Great news!  :D
Have you tried to compare the taste of the two oils "uncooked"? I mean just a drop of each to see if you notice any difference or peculiar taste in the first one when compared to the extra light Bertolli?


Offline November

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Re: peculiar taste in pizza
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2007, 09:33:23 PM »
Yes, that is good to hear.  I had a feeling changing oils would make a difference.  The largest cause of problems I've had in the past with unwanted flavors has been because of either oils that go rancid too fast, oils that easily polymerize, or olive oils that are too crude and smoke prematurely.

- red.november

Offline Jack

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Re: peculiar taste in pizza
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2007, 10:31:22 AM »
I use Kirkland extra virgin olive oil from Costco in both my dough and my sauce

FYI - I use the Kirkland Extra Virgin in my dough, at temps up to 500 F and have had no issues with it.  My sicilain is dripping in it and cooked for over 12 minutes at 475 F, until the bottom of the crust is lightly fried. 

This is my opinion only.  All of our palates are calibrated differently.

Jack


 

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