Author Topic: Randy - A request for you  (Read 9388 times)

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Offline husker3in4

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2007, 01:49:51 AM »
That might have been it too. I dont know if I read his recipe wrong, but I let the spices (other than the garlic) kind of roast in the oil. Once I added the garlic, I put the tomatoes right on top of them.. I cant ever understand the percents etc. I could use the weights if I had a digital scale. But I just have regular measuring cups and thats the only way I can do it for now.

Peetzza, I tried your suggestion for two 14" pizzas tonight. The dough is in the fridge for sunday, I'll let u know how it turns out.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 01:52:16 AM by husker3in4 »


Offline husker3in4

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2007, 01:16:28 AM »
Peetzza, I tried your 14" versions, and I had mixed results. The dough felt good, stretched good, and still tasted pretty good, but.. It seemed a bit *too* thick.  So much so that the top of the crust (under the sauce and cheese) didnt cook through. The bottom and edge was fine, just the main part of the crust was very thick and doughy, and the top of it (directly under sauce and cheese) didnt cook all the way. I baked one of them at 475 and the second at 450 on the center rack on a screen. When I cook the 12" versions like that they turn out fine. I thought about turning the broiler on or maybe cooking it on the top rack, but I didnt want the cheese to burn or the edge of the crust to burn (they were browned well). Do you have any suggestions?

Randy, funny thing about the sauce. After I made the first batch of pizzas with it (it was too garlicy) I just left it in the fridge. It was about a week later when I used it again and it was good. I even mixed some of it with some tomato sauce and used it for spaghetti and it was good. Maybe it just needs some time in the fridge?

Offline Randy

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2007, 07:02:52 AM »
Husker, that is why we use a scale so we can repeat the recipe everytime as well as as Peter showed you, make our pizzas larger or smaller.  The larger the recipe the bigger chance for error.  Some people think it is overkill but once they start using a scale they quickly see the benefits.
Watch for scales being on sale that have an accuracy of one tenth ounce and capable of weighing five pounds or more.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2007, 09:08:14 AM »
husker3in4,

I think you may have used Randy's recipe in Reply 33. I mentioned that the dough weight for a 14" pizza would be 19.40 ounces (Reply 26), but if you go back and re-read Replies 30-34 you will see that I did not calculate the baker's percents for Randy's recipe in Reply 33, which is for two 14" pizzas. Hence, I did not come up with specific numbers for that recipe for a 14" size. If you used a scale and used 19.40 ounces of dough, it should have worked for the 14" size. Like Randy says, having a scale makes life easier.

Peter


Offline Randy

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2007, 09:37:04 AM »
Peter, that is the way I read it too.  My larger recipe I made for husker was for two 13"-14" pizzas, not one.

Offline husker3in4

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2007, 11:45:36 PM »
Hm, well I used your suggestion in reply #33. Is it possible to scale that one down?

Offline Randy

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2007, 06:28:43 AM »
Husker I am confused.  You used the recipe in #33 but how many pizzas did you make with that recipe and what size were they?

Offline husker3in4

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2007, 10:01:54 PM »
Hi randy, I made two 14" pizzas, they came out ok, but I think it was too doughy. So much so that the top of the crust (not the edge, but the part right under the cheese) didnt cook all the way thru. The rest of it browned nicely, but even the edge wasnt all that light, it was pretty thick too. Thats why I was asking if there was a way to scale it down a bit. I dont know how to proportion flour to water the right way.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2007, 10:44:50 AM »
husker3in4,

I know you mean well, but when you asked Randy to modify one of his recipes to allow you to make doughs for two 14" pizzas using only ½-cup measuring cups and tablespoons/teaspoons for measuring out flour and water, you essentially tied one of his hands behind his back. So, as helpful as Randy tried to be, I am not surprised that the dough formulation did not work out as well for you as your earlier effort. As far as I can tell, the recipe may have been correct but it is also possible that you did not measure out the ingredients accurately enough using whatever measuring cups and spoons you have at your disposal. I also don’t see the solution in having Randy now try to scale down that recipe. I think the better solution is to take the dough formulation that you used and liked to make the 12” pizzas—the recipe in Reply 7—and scale that up to the 14” size. This morning, I converted that recipe to baker’s percents as best I could and, after calculating the thickness factor, scaled the recipe up to produce a set of numbers for two 14” pizzas, as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (62.6298%):
IDY (1.10294%):
Salt (2.04368%):
Olive Oil (3.41695%):
Sugar (3.89273%):
Honey (5.172%):
Total (178.2581%):
Single Ball:
557.59 g  |  19.67 oz | 1.23 lbs
349.22 g  |  12.32 oz | 0.77 lbs
6.15 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.04 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
11.4 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.04 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
19.05 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.23 tsp | 1.41 tbsp
21.71 g | 0.77 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.44 tsp | 1.81 tbsp
28.84 g | 1.02 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.12 tsp | 1.37 tbsp
993.94 g | 35.06 oz | 2.19 lbs | TF = 0.113876
496.97 g | 17.53 oz | 1.1 lbs

In order to convert the flour and water to volume measurements, I used November’s mass-volume conversion tool at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. For purposes of using the tool, I used the default values. Based on the weight of flour in the above formulation, the corresponding volume measurement is 4 cups, plus ¼ cup, plus 3 T., plus a bit over 1 t. For the water, the corresponding volume is 1 cup, plus ¼ cup, plus 2 t. In measuring out the flour, it is important that you do it consistent with the way that November designed the tool. You should first stir the flour in the bag (or other flour container), lift the flour out of the flour container with a tablespoon or scoop into your measuring cups/spoons until slightly overfull, and then level the tops. You should not use the scoop and level method. For the water, you should pour it into your measuring cup(s) until it reaches the cup markings when viewed at eye level. For the tablespoons and teaspoon measuring spoons, just dip into your source of water.

I think if you follow the above steps to the letter, that is about as close as you will be able to come to implementing the recipe successfully. You may still have to tweak the dough in the bowl, as we all do even when we weigh everything out.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 06:39:17 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Randy

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2007, 12:13:04 PM »
Husker Peter hit the nail square on the head.  We are not giving up as you can tell by Peter's effort to get a recipe closer than my best guess turned out.  Go with his version and let's see what happens.  Keep your childern involved and before long they will be making pizzas for you.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2007, 02:12:33 PM »
Randy,

Out of curiosity, I did a fairly quick check on your last recipe (in Reply 33) and found that your numbers were different from mine by a little over an ounce per dough ball. Actually, I did two checks on your recipe. I apparently had done one when you first posted the recipe but forgot that I had done so until I stumbled across my notes just minutes ago. The results in both cases were quite close, within a fraction of an ounce. The one ounce or so difference in dough weight translates into about a half inch in the pie size. That is, instead of a 14" pizza, the corresponding pizza size would be something like a 14.5" pizza. That normally wouldn't be a noticeable difference. This suggests that your dough formulation was pretty much on the money.

If I had to speculate, I would say that most likely there was a mismeasurement somewhere, and the most common place where that sort of thing occurs is in measuring out the flour and water by volumes. Those two ingredients represent about 94% of the total dough weight and it's so easy to get them wrong. The next time, presumably doing the same things the same way, the results could just as well be right. Do it enough times, and you are likely to discover that you got it right half the time and wrong half the time. That pattern would drive me crazy. If husker3in4 decides to go with the new formulation I posted, I hope he lands on the right side.

Peter

Offline Randy

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2007, 02:29:19 PM »
Peter, maybe we should suggest that the bag or container of flour be shaken to fluff it up before measuring.  Or maybe re-figure the number of cups based on a spoon and level traditional cup.  That would yield a closer measurement.

I keep telling myself to do a recipe for new people that uses cups, hand kneaded and uses readily available ingredients.  This is much more practical with the new Harvest King flour.  If time permits then next week I will put my mind to it.

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2007, 10:19:27 AM »
Randy,

I misposted yesterday to a reply that I thought came from husker3in4. I saw my error today and deleted the post.

I agree with you that it would be nice to be able to come up with a simple way of measuring out flour that can be consistently applied. When November came up with his tool, he used data that I collected from doing over 400 individual weighings of different flours using the measurement method recommended by King Arthur and others in the trade. I used my one-cup, 1/2-cup and 1/4-cup measuring cups, and November similarly used his set(s) of cups to come up with the mathematical model for the tool. It doesn't really matter what measurement method is used, so long as it is consistently applied. Even then, there will be variations that can throw a recipe off. When I did the weighings mentioned above, even using a consistent method, I was surprised by the variations. I was very careful to use the same methods consistently, and I paid very close attention to what I was doing, and there were still variations that surprised me. Most people are casual about their weighings, and I am willing to bet that the variations will be much greater. I know that you will be more careful than most, so I have some confidence in your ability as a master pizza maker to come up with a workable solution and to develop a set of instructions to go along with what you do to elevate the success level of those who follow your instructions.

BTW, I tried shaking a 5-lb. bag of flour this morning and found that doing that compacted the flour rather than fluffing it. However, you could devise a measuring method based on compacted flour, and it might even be a good method because it eliminates some of the compaction dynamics, but I don't think that is what you had in mind. I might even try a few weighings based on that method and see what I get.

Peter

Offline husker3in4

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2007, 08:04:18 PM »
Thanks guys, well I usually scoop up the bag of flour a few times before actually getting my measurments out of it. I will try your new measurements this week and see how it goes.

Thanks

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2007, 02:15:28 PM »
I keep telling myself to do a recipe for new people that uses cups, hand kneaded and uses readily available ingredients.  This is much more practical with the new Harvest King flour.  If time permits then next week I will put my mind to it.

Randy,

This morning I ran some flour weighing tests using the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour that I thought might interest you in the event you try to come up with a simple conversion factor for the Harvest King flour.

I ran four sets of weighing tests, each based on 22 ounces of flour that I had weighed and put into a bowl. I used only a 1/2-cup measuring cup (made of of metal, with straight sides) and made nine weighings, along the lines of your recommendation to husker3in4 that he weigh out nine 1/2-cups of flour for the last recipe you posted.

For the first test, I used the King Arthur method and weighed out the 1/2-cup measurements by first fluffing the flour in the bowl, lifting flour into my measuring cup with a tablespoon to slightly overflowing, and then leveling off the top. I also fluffed the flour in the bowl between weighings. For the second test, I compacted the flour in the bowl as much as possible by thumping the bowl against my work surface several times, and then scooped the flour using the 1/2-cup measuring cup to overflowing, and leveled off the top. I thumped the bowl in between weighings. For the third test, I stirred the flour in the bowl, scooped the flour using the 1/2-cup measuring cup to overflowing, and then leveled off the top. I fluffed the flour in the bowl between weighings. For the final test, I repeated the last test but used a different 1/2-cup measuring cup, one that was plastic and tapered.

The total weight of the flour for the different weighings was 19.55 oz. for the KA method (2.17 oz. avg. per 1/2-cup weighing), 22.05 oz. for the compaction method (2.45 oz. avg.), 20.75 oz. for the fluff/scoop/level method (2.31 oz. avg.), and 20.40 oz. for the fluff/scoop/level method but using the plastic 1/2-cup measuring cup (2.27 oz. avg.). Obviously, the 22.05 oz. number was off (it is higher than the 22 oz. I put in the bowl to start), and most likely the error is due to my scale being accurate to only 0.05 oz. But what is noteworthy is the effect of the weighings on hydration. If we assume that the water weight is 12 ounces, then the respective hydration percents are 61.4%, 54.4%, 57.8%, and 58.8%. The 12 oz. water assumption is only an assumption, since it quite likely that people who measure out water by volume will be off with that too, as I discovered when I conducted tests involving weighing out volumes of water. So, there are two potential sources of error in our example, the flour and the water, each of which will affect the final hydration percent.

I suppose it doesn't matter what test is used for the flour so long as the method is applied consistently, and good instructions are given to the user on the specifics of the method. For example, with the Harvest King flour, you could take several weighings (the more the better from an accuracy standpoint) using whatever method you deem to be the best, take the average of the weighings, and divide that into the weight of the flour you establish for your recipe. If you decide to use different cup sizes, you may need to take weighings for each cup size to arrive at the number of cups (full cups, 1/2-cups, etc.). Even that may not be exact. Some people have a lighter or heavier hand at doing these sorts of things than others. And your measuring cups may be different than the next person's. It will also be helpful to instruct users that it may be necessary to make minor adjustments in the bowl, and how to tell when the dough is of the proper form.

As a sidenote, I wondered what a half-cup of sifted flour weighed. It came to 2.05 oz. So, for my tests, the range of weights ran from 2.05 oz. at one end to 2.45 oz. at the other end.

Peter

Offline Randy

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2007, 03:08:57 PM »
Your well-thought-out test confirms my believe that maybe a measuring cup is not the answer although I am aware that a small percentage of people will have a weight scale.in my mind I am thinking of a simple beam balance that would take advantage of counter weights of various canned and bottled items.  As an example a can of Coke will weigh the same in Kentucky as it does in Texas.  Or at least close enough for the accuracy range were speaking of for a general pizza recipe.  The point is I'm trying to think outside the pizza pan.  That is to say is there another way to measure flour other than the methods we have mentioned.  I am probably way off base but I think you can see from coming from.

Offline husker3in4

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #56 on: February 05, 2007, 07:22:00 PM »
Um, so is it ok to fluff the flour in the bag, scoop it with my 1/2 cup to overflow, then level it off with the flat end of a knife?

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Re: Randy - A request for you
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2007, 07:32:23 PM »
husker3in4,

I don't know how Randy measures out flour by volume, but if you plan to follow the recipe I set forth in Reply 48, I would use the method described there. If you decide to follow Randy's recipe again using only the 1/2-cup measuring cup, he will have to guide you there.
You really should have more than one measuring cup in your arsenal.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 07:35:15 PM by Pete-zza »