Author Topic: thin- airy crust HELP !! (Read 10876 times)

Randy · « **Reply #20 on:** January 11, 2007, 12:00:27 PM »

Jimmy, we have all been in you shoes and understand your flustration. Making pizza is like learning to drive a car. It is easy to say use the brake to stop, use the accelerator to go forward and the steering wheel to go left and right, but as you know there is much more to it than that.

I strongly suggest you try Steve's recipe on the link below and note his link to detailed instructions at the bottom of the page. Once you get this very tasty pizza under your belt then you will be ready to try some of the more complex recipes.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/newyorkstyle.php

Pete-zza · « **Reply #21 on:** January 11, 2007, 01:30:09 PM »

Jimmy V,

I wouldn't give up yet on Recipe 2. I don't know what specific values you entered into the Lehmann calculator but it appears that you used a low value of thickness factor (around 0.07+), not the value recommended in the tool. But that shouldn't affect the performance of your dough beyond yielding a thinner crust. The amounts you specified for Recipe 2 are for a single pizza, not two. I have made Lehmann doughs many times before where there was little volume expansion. Yet, when allowed to warm up to room temperature, they performed fine. In retrospect, I think your ADY quantity is fine. I was thinking of IDY when I posted and was doing the math in my head based on IDY. So I am more optimistic now than when I last posted. But you still need to get the dough to warm up. You may find that Recipe 1 will also work out, so it is premature to be pessimistic. Just keep good notes as to what is happening so that we can better diagnose problems should they arise.

Peter

Jimmy V · « **Reply #22 on:** January 11, 2007, 03:10:47 PM »

Thanks Randy..that will definately be the next recipe I try, I appreciate everybody's help and suggestions.

Jimmy V · « **Reply #23 on:** January 11, 2007, 03:19:08 PM »

Thanks Pete. by the way, yes I did enter a real ow thickness value as you thought. Both doughs have been at room temp for about 4 hours, recipe #1 is rising about 25% so far, Recipe is rising about, maybe 10 %.
Couple more questions. I store my yeast in the fridge, both active and instant, is this a good idea.? If so, when making dough should I let it get to room temp for awhile before adding to water, and do I let it sit in the water a specific time before adding the rest of the ingrediants ?
Finally, when I bake the pizzas later, I was going to use a stone and bake at 550. Some people say use a screen and try a different temp, also to get awy from the "gummy" tecture where the sauce meets the dough, do you suggest a pre-bake of the crust ? Thanks for your help .

Pete-zza · « **Reply #24 on:** January 11, 2007, 04:06:02 PM »

Jimmy V,

With the amounts of yeast you used don't expect to see dramatic increases in volume, especially if your room temperature is on the cool side. A 25% increase for a Lehmann style dough is not unusual, and I've experienced even less. Yet, even then, it is clear that the dough is alive.

As for the yeast, I would store it in a tightly-sealed container in the freezer. There is some disagreement among the experts as to whether the yeast should be brought to room temperature before using. The yeast manufacturers sometimes suggest that this be done but I believe that they are acting on the conservative side. Dry yeast warms up fairly quickly when removed from the refrigerator/freezer so by the time you are ready to use it, it should be ready to go. Since you are using ADY, the most commonly recommended way to use it is to rehydrate it in a small amount of water at around 105 degrees F, for about 10 minutes, following which it can be added to the rest of the formula water, which can be on the cool side.

Unless the pizza you plan to make is larger than your stone, I would bake the pizza on the stone. I see no need to pre-bake the crust. I'd rather see if the gummy texture you mention reveals itself with the new recipes. With the thin crust you will be making with Recipe 2, I'd be surprised if you get a gummy texture. If you get such a texture, please note its characteristics in as much detail as you can. Often gumminess is confused with other dough maladies, including underbaking.

Peter

Randy · « **Reply #25 on:** January 11, 2007, 04:57:57 PM »

Peter, I wonder if the type of pizza he wants matches the recipe he is using.
Jimmy can you give us an example using a well known retail pizza joint.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #26 on:** January 11, 2007, 05:10:28 PM »

Randy,

In Reply 4 in this thread I asked Jimmy what style pizza he was after and he responded:

The Crust I want is more of a New York style = Thin, yet airy, not "gummy" where the sauce and dough meet.

Jimmy's response is what prompted me to suggest the Lehmann style, of which Recipe 2 is a "thinner" version. Recipe 1 looks like a NY style recipe except that the hydration, at 56%, is on the low side. However, I have heard of NY style doughs with 56% hydration.

Peter

Randy · « **Reply #27 on:** January 11, 2007, 05:37:05 PM »

Yes I read his response but as you know, New York style is used to describe a wide range of pies. In this case he may be referring to a brick oven pizza since the texture seems to be at the forefront.

Jimmy V · « **Reply #28 on:** January 11, 2007, 08:50:33 PM »

Randy, actually there isnt a good pizza joint here locally that I could give you as an axample, for the crust i'm trying to achieve. I guess the only way I can describe it si, it would be approx. 1/4 in inch thick, possibly a little thicker, and if yoy took a cross section photo of it. it would have air pockets in it, rather than being denxe like card-board.

Randy · « **Reply #29 on:** January 11, 2007, 09:28:09 PM »

Look close at this picture and see if this is about right. Note the big air hole in the end of the crust. The small dark spots are holes in the bottom of the crust from the oven spring.

chewie · « **Reply #30 on:** January 11, 2007, 11:16:55 PM »

I know I'm a newbie to pizza making and maybe I'm really confused here, but...

if the dough is gummy only where the dough and the sauce meet, doesn't that suggest that either the pizza isn't getting enough cooking on top or that the sauce might be too thin?

What am I missing? Is it just that the dough must be absorbing too much liquid during cooking? Or maybe he needs a small coating of oil on the top of the crust to act as a barrier?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #31 on:** January 11, 2007, 11:54:32 PM »

chewie,

At the moment we are waiting to see if Jimmy experiences the so-called "gummy" problem using the two new recipes. However, if you would like in the meantime to read about the distinction between a doughy layer and a gummy layer, you can read this item: http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730504. As you noted, it is also possible to put a thin layer of oil on the dough before adding the sauce. However, this is usually only done if a dough is likely to be sitting around for a long time before being dressed and baked. Pizza operators will often pre-prepare a number of skins this way to meet above average demand, as when they they expect to be slammed.

Peter

EDIT (2/1/2013): For an alternative Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040602213637/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm

chiguy · « **Reply #32 on:** January 11, 2007, 11:59:33 PM »

Chewy,
You are correct that gummy crust can be sauce or baking related problems and either adjustments to the bake time/temps or a brush of oil in the case of the sauce can help with gummy crust issues. Chiguy

EDIT: I missed that Pete-zza has addressed the gum line question.

Jimmy V · « **Reply #33 on:** January 12, 2007, 09:03:13 AM »

Randy, I looked at your pic in post #29 that looks EXACTLY like what Im trying to achieve in my crust, how do I make that recipe ?
Anyway, I did bake the 2 recipes last night. I rolled them both VERY thin, and baked them at 550 F on a pre-heated stone. neither pizza did any rising while baking. recipe #1 was thin and "crisp" but not airy. There was no "gummy: texuture at all between the dough and sauce on either pizza which i was happy about.
Recipe was actually about the the same, not much fifference, very little airyness in the crust. Maybe more yeast next time or what ? thanks for your sugestions.I actually liked recipe #1 beter of the two.

Randy · « **Reply #34 on:** January 12, 2007, 10:37:27 AM »

Jimmy, lets get you started with the basics. First if you would answer a few question.
From your post, you have a scale. Is that right? Does it go to a tenth of an ounce?
Do you hand knead or use a mixer like a KitchenAid?
What flour do you have on hand?
What yeast do you have on hand?
Do you use a stone, screen or pan or some combination?
Do you have a thermometer to measure water temperature?
I noticed you said you rolled out the dough. Not such a good idea.
Would shape a pizza by hand?
From these questions we should be able to get the right recipe for you.

Randy · « **Reply #35 on:** January 12, 2007, 10:58:04 AM »

By the way here is a good video on pizza shaping, just ignore the rolling part.
http://www.taunton.com/finecooking/pages/cvt033.asp

Jimmy V · « **Reply #36 on:** January 12, 2007, 11:00:36 AM »

My scale measures in Grams, Dwt. and Oz. I have never tried the Oz. feature. on recipe # 1 I hand Kneaded the dough, on Recipe # 2 I used the kitchen Aid mixer with a dough hook on low speed for 15 minutes. The flour I had on hand was Pillsbury Best Bread flour/ Protein 4 G. thats the only flour I can find locally, so I may have to order some on line.The yeast i used was Fleischmans Active yeast and I aslo have "Saf-Instant" instant yeast that I havent tried.I used a stone last night but I do also have a screen. I used a digital thermometer and the water was at 104 F. I did use a rolling pin to roll it out. Hope this answers your questions...thanks

Jimmy V · « **Reply #37 on:** January 12, 2007, 11:23:09 AM »

Thanks Randy, but for some reason i can not view the video. Not sure why.

Randy · « **Reply #38 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:44:50 PM »

odd, I just ran the video using the quicktime version.

Jimmy V · « **Reply #39 on:** January 12, 2007, 01:00:20 PM »

I didnt have the quick-time player down loaded. i do have it now, and I did watch the video