Author Topic: thin- airy crust HELP !!  (Read 12179 times)

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Offline Jimmy V

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2007, 10:37:50 AM »
Hmm , I just eye-balled the dough and figured i could make 3 pizzas about 13-14 inches, which I did. In fact, one of the pizzas was actually too thick. But, Im a rookie so I'm always open to suggestions. Trail and error, Im definatey good at the "error" part.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2007, 10:51:04 AM »
Jimmy V,

If you made 14" pizzas with roughly 12.80 ounces of dough, the thickness factor was about 0.08. For Randy's recipe, it is above 0.125 by my calculation. That's a big difference and I don't think that what you did is what Randy had in mind. That's why I usually advise people trying out a new recipe to follow the recipe as written before freelancing.

Peter

Offline Jimmy V

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2007, 11:00:32 AM »
So, what you are saying is I should have made 2 pizzas rather than 3  right ? I  will definately keep that in mind next time. I guess in my quest to keep the crust "Thin" I made 3 pies. So, my obviouse question is, and I hope it doesnt sound stupid, is - If I made 2 pies rather than 3 with the same amount of dough, wouldnt they be thicker, there-by getting away from the thin airy crust Im trying to achieve ?

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2007, 11:28:20 AM »
Jimmy V,

I assumed that you were following Randy's recipe as he intended it be practiced but, yes, if you make two 12"-14" pizzas using the amount of dough his recipe produces they will be thicker and airy rather than thin and airy. I can't say for sure because I have not made Randy's most recent recipe (that you apparently used) but I have made his original recipe before as well as "NY-thin" versions, with good results in all cases.

Because of the specific dough formulation of Randy's recipe it may well be that you won't get the crust characteristics you are after if you scale it down to a thinner size crust. If you would like to see what scaled down (thin) versions of Randy’s original American style look like, scroll through the photos shown at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310. In some cases I changed the baker’s percents but I tried as much as possible to keep the ingredients in the proportions as given in the original recipe. If the photos do not depict what you are looking for in the crust, then you may want to try another recipe. Alternatively, if you can find a photo on the forum that appeals to you, along with a recipe, we may be able to help you in your quest for your “perfect” dough recipe.

Peter

Offline Randy

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2007, 11:58:54 AM »
Peter is exactly right.  It makes two pizzas not three and do not use the docker.  That distroyed the bubble stucture.  Go back and watch the video I posted again.   No rolling pin, no docker.
Keep going, you will get it done.

Randy

Offline chewie

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #65 on: January 19, 2007, 12:09:06 PM »
chewie,

At the moment we are waiting to see if Jimmy experiences the so-called "gummy" problem using the two new recipes. However, if you would like in the meantime to read about the distinction between a doughy layer and a gummy layer, you can read this item: http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730504. As you noted, it is also possible to put a thin layer of oil on the dough before adding the sauce. However, this is usually only done if a dough is likely to be sitting around for a long time before being dressed and baked. Pizza operators will often pre-prepare a number of skins this way to meet above average demand, as when they they expect to be slammed.

Peter


Wow.  I made a pizza last night and happened to check.  I think I'm seeing a gummy layer myself.  I wouldn't have thought to look because it always tastes perfectly fine.

I'll have to read this thread more carefully and figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Offline Jimmy V

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2007, 12:13:33 PM »
Randy, I did it as close to the video as possible. I only pierced the dough a few times as i definately wanted to see some air in the crust.

Offline doughboy

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2007, 03:28:05 PM »
doughboy,

I agree with Randy about seeing the dough recipe you are using. That is usually a good starting point for me to assess matters. I don't think it is the hydration of the IDY that is behind the lack of bubbles. I don't usually hydrate IDY but I have done it before where I was using so little of it that I was afraid it wouldn't be uniformly dispersed within the flour. I have also read of professionals who hydrate IDY, apparently with good results, so that seems to lend support to the notion of hydrating IDY even if it isn't necessary. However, unless you are making a very large batch of dough, enough for several pizzas, a full packet of IDY seems an awful lot for a cold fermented dough and may be adversely affecting the fermentation of the dough. If you are adding all of the sugar to the water along with the IDY, I would cut back to only a pinch or two. The bulk of the sugar can go into the rest of the formula water, along with the salt.

I's also like to know how long you are kneading the dough and whether you are temperature adjusting the water to get a finished dough temperature in the range of about 70-75 degrees F. And when you say bubbles, are you referring to big surface bubbles that tend to appear on the rim of the crust or to the openness of the crumb, that is, the interior of the crust? As Randy noted, it would also be helpful to know how you are managing and shaping the dough once it comes out of the refrigerator.

Peter

Sorry that I haven't responded guys, I split to Mexico for a week of WARM weather, just trying to catch up the the posts of JimmyV and Chewy, here is my last reciepe as I made it, I record full proceedure each time i make a dough.
I weigh all materials on a scale withing 2 oz. differential.
Water         9 7/8 oz
flour KA       15 1/4 oz (Bread flour)
yeast idy     1pkt 1.4oz
sugar          3/8 oz
kosher salt   10grams
olive oil        1 oz

I mix water 105degrees and sugar until disolved,add yeast, let sit for 10min.  I sift flour twice,add the wet into flour and mix by hand until semi combined, let sit for 30 min for the water to absorb, then knead for 5 min, let sit for 10, ad the salt and oil into dough and knead for another 10 min., form into ball and coat metal bowl with oil and brush on oil to doughball, cover with damp towel and let double.  Punch down firmly and divide into two balls and refigerate overnite and use the next day(about 24hrs). I take the dough out about 3hours before using, punch down about an hour before cooking and form a ball until ready to form the pie, dough is elastic and forms nicely, I put oil around the edges of the pie with a brush, add the homemade 5in one sauce and then rest of toppings. Oven is 500 for 30-45 min, place on stone that is on bottom rack and cook approx 8-9 min until bottom and top is crisp.  It looks good and tastes good.

Texture is fine and tastes great also, but I don't get the oven spring you guys talk about, and I do have a gummy layer sometimes, I actually get a firmer crust cooking them in the Webber outside, with no gummy layer. I'm going to re-read the posts and catch up on your recomendations made to JimmyV and Chewy.  Any feed back would be great, remember all mixing and kneading is by hand.  I also have screens but have had little success with getting a crisp bottom, toppings cook nicely tho.

sorry it took so long to respond


after catching up on the threads I see that i should  have posted that I make two pies about 14-16 inches with this mix, I do not roll, but form by hand, and do not toss, but form on a granite countertop by spreading with my fingers to get the size and thickness....  GREAT help, THANKS again

« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 03:50:36 PM by doughboy »

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2007, 06:58:47 PM »
doughboy,

Thank you for the additional information.

I’m still not sure what you mean by “bubbles”, that is, whether you are referring to the large bubbles that form in a pizza crust, often in the rim area, or large voids in the interior of the rim (crumb) that form as a result of oven spring. Maybe you can refer us to a photo that shows what you mean. There are also very small blisters that can form on the outer surface of the rim that some people call bubbles. I don’t think you mean these but I mention it just in case.

Looking at the dough formulation you posted, I believe that the amount of IDY you listed, 1.4 ounces, is in error. Since a packet of IDY weighs 0.25 ounces (1/4 oz.), I assume that you meant 0.25 ounces. I converted your dough formulation so modified as follows:

100%, Flour (bread), 15.25 oz.
64.875%, Water, 9.875 oz. (temp. = 105 degrees F)
2.3%, Kosher salt, 0.353 oz.
2.46%, Sugar, 0.375 oz.
6.56%, Oil, 1 oz.
1.64%, IDY, 0.25 oz.
Total dough weight = 27.11 oz.
Individual dough ball weight = 13.55 oz.
Thickness factor at 14” = 0.0880
Thickness factor at 16” = 0.06740

The first thing that jumps out at me is the amount of yeast, 1.64% IDY, together with the water temperature you used (105 degrees F). Both of those conditions—a very high quantity of yeast and warm water--are consistent with making what is usually called an “emergency” dough in the pizza trade, that is, a dough that is made and used within a couple of hours or so. As you will note from this item, http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?noframes;read=8503, your quantity of IDY even exceeded the maximum recommended for IDY for an “emergency” dough. I might mention that your water temperature perhaps went down a bit during the 10-minute rehydration of the IDY, but I did a test today with 105-degree water and after 10 minutes it was down to 94 degrees F, in a rather cool kitchen. So, your water temperature even  after normal cooling was consistent with the water temperature you would use to make an “emergency” dough. As noted previously, my practice when rehydrating dry yeast is to rehydrate it in a small amount of water at 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes and then add it to the rest of the water, which is on the cool side. I don’t add sugar to the water although some people add a pinch.

Your oil, at 6.56%, is also on the high side and, at that level, it will normally contribute a tenderness in the finished crust. The sugar, at 2.46%, will also contribute to that tenderness. Whether the oil and sugar at those levels were responsible for the lack of bubbles is hard to say. With the small thickness factors I calculated above for the 14” and 16” pizza sizes, there isn’t a great mass of dough to begin with, and it is possible that as you shaped and stretched the dough out to 14” and 16” you didn’t form a rim that was big enough to create a lot of voids in the crumb during the oven spring. If the rim was soft and tender that may have been because of the levels of oil and sugar you used. That may also have contributed to the gummy condition you mentioned, by virtue of the high quantity of oil retaining the water in the dough, which was high to begin with (almost 65% hydration), thereby preventing the water from evaporating enough and drying the crust.

It’s also possible that your dough management was not correct. I calculated a total knead time of 15 minutes. Since you used a long autolyse (30 min. plus 10 min., or 40 min. total), that should have cut back the required knead time quite significantly, even if done by hand. In your case, you may have overkneaded the dough, which can lead to a tight crumb with small, similarly-shaped voids. It is also possible that punching down the dough one hour before shaping may have expelled the gasses in the dough, which can also lead to a tight crumb. I suspect you may have done this because the dough ball expanded too much in the two hours preceding the punchdown, most likely due to the high quantity of yeast.

I think I have given you enough ideas to play around with. If you want to make a cold fermented dough, my advice is to cut way back on the yeast and rehydrate it in the manner discussed above. You can even add the IDY directly to the flour if you would like, or, if you want to use the classic Calvel autolyse (as you did), you can add the IDY to the dough just before adding the oil and salt. If you do reduce the amount of IDY to normal levels, and temperature adjust the water to achieve a finished dough temperature in the 75-80 degrees F range, you won’t have to do a room-temperature rise. The dough can go right into the refrigerator.

You might also lower the oil content, maybe to something like 2-3%. And knead the dough less and don’t punch it down in preparation for shaping and stretching. If you cut back on the amount of yeast, you may find that the dough may not need punching down because it won’t rise as much as your dough did.

I can’t promise you that following the above recommendations will cure your problems. You might want to change one variable at a time to determine if you see progress, and make adjustments based on the actual results you achieve.

Good luck, and please let us know if you find a solution to your (lack of) bubbles problem.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 07:00:27 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jimmy V

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2007, 05:37:03 PM »
Nect time I try Randy's recipe i will do it EXACTLY like he reccomends. I did not do any docking tho the first time, just made 3 pies rather than 2.
There is one other recipe you guys said to try in your threads which was the "New York-Style Pizza.
3 1/2 cups flour
9 oz. water
1 Tbl.spn olive oil
1 Tsp Instant Yeast
3/4 tsp Salt.
 But before I try that one. I did mention in a previous post that I tried a recipe that "Grovemonkey" posted on Dec. 3 2006 MY BEST PIE YET.
I tried that recipe and "tweaked " it a little bit and went with 50 % Pillsbury flour and 50% King Arthur  - perfect pizza blend. And I used 1/2 tsp. yeast rather than 1/4 tsp.
This wasnt "exactly" what I was looking for , but so far, its the closest, My kids, as well as my neighbors and wife really liked it and have not liked anything ive made since. My first goal at this point is to simply see if I can actually (REPEAT) this recipe with success . If I can , great, that means I can always come back to it. If i cant, then I'll be scratching my head wondering what the heck Im doing wrong.
With all that said, I STILL like what I saw in the pic of Randys recipe, that photo is THE pizza crust Im striving for.


Offline Randy

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2007, 06:01:59 PM »
Jimmy, as we said before the KA pizza blend is waste of good money and did nothing but hurt the recipe you posted.

Offline doughboy

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2007, 06:44:59 PM »

peter
thanks for the rec's, the yeast is 1/4 oz packet, I hit the wrong key apparently.  I don't have a digital camera as of yet, but I'm referring to the big bubble near the rim that you all have posted many times. I do form a rim on the pie and that is where I keep looking for the bubbles. I thought that you couldn't over knead dough by hand but I guess thats not the case. When I first started the autolayse, it seemed to make a huge difference in the way the dough handled and tasted. Does the sifting help that much with the water absorbing into the flour?

I noticed that you said that 65% hydration was high, should I be lowering this percentage to help with the gummy crust?  As I see the figure at 61 to 62% being used alot, but with my mix as of now I get all the KA flour in with no problem.  My original mix was very dry and it was 61%, of course that was with a regular bread flour, lower yeast levels,oil and sugar. I have not tried the lower level since I started using the KA bread flour.  Sounds like I'm just OUT OF BALANCE......
 I will cut back the oil and sugar, as well as the yeast as you suggested, but will do so with the yeast first, as the tenderness and taste is fine and to everyones liking. I will be making dough tomarrow or the day after. Will let you know how it turns out.  The nice thing is,the mistakes are still GREAT to eat.... practice makes perfect sometimes. :-D
thanks again

Offline Jimmy V

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2007, 07:21:35 PM »
well, it may not be the best recipe by any means using the K.A. flour and I will certainly agree that the cost is pretty high for what you get, but, for some reason, as I posted, That was the best crust I have made to date, so I just wanted to make it one more time if for no other reason than to prove to my self that I can use the same recipe more than once and get the same results.
 Then , after tomorrow,  I will try your ( Randy's ) recipe once again and only make 2 pizzas rather than 3 and hope for better resluts like what i see in your picture .
You guys are familiar with that other recipe i will try right ? The New-York stlye ?

Offline Randy

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2007, 08:11:38 PM »
Jimmy my point was, it is a good recipe, and would have even been better if you had not used the pizza blend.
No problem, just don't give up, you are so close.

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2007, 08:37:27 PM »
doughboy,

I have never been able to "program" bubbles into my doughs. They just seem to happen and, since I don't mind some bubbling, I take them as a nice diversion. Member November feels that bubbling occurs based on how the dough is formed into the final shape, and that you need a large, open gluten structure in order to get bubbles. I do know for a fact that pizza operators often get large bubbles in the finished crust when the dough is shaped cold, and especially so if the dough did not get sufficient fermentation. When I intentionally implemented those aspects into my doughs, even at high hydration levels, I did not get bubbling. So maybe my dough shaping skills are in need of help if I am to get better bubbling.

I don't think you need 65% hydration to get a large, open gluten structure that may be conducive to producing bubbling. If you are using bread flour and sifting it, you should get improved hydration of the flour (the extent may depend on how you are mixing and kneading), and you may well end up using 65% hydration without incident (e.g., without getting an overly wet dough). However, the rated absorption rate of bread flour is somewhere around 61-62%. You could try that rate, which might also help with the gummy/undercooked dough problem you say you have been experiencing.

As far as kneading is concerned, I perhaps shouldn't have used the term overkneading as loosely as I did. The point I was trying to make is that you don't want to overwork the dough. If anything, you want it to be slightly underkneaded. I do not believe that you can destroy the gluten structure of a dough by hand kneading, but I do believe that you can go overboard and knead the dough too much and get a small, tight crumb structure. What I don't know is what effect high hydration levels and hand kneading have when you are making super thin crusts with smallish rims. This is one of those cases where I wish I could see some photos of the pizzas and a cross section of the rims. At least I would have a better idea of what you are experiencing and be able to speak more intelligently on the matter.

Peter

Offline Jimmy V

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2007, 08:45:37 PM »
As far as "bubbles" or airyness, when I got fustrated about a year ago with the dough being "gummy" where the sauce and dough met, I tried pre-baking just the crust, then adding the sauce. he he he , the crust would blow up like a baloon if I didnt dock it, and even when i did dock it, I had lots of air bubbles, but the crust would be over-done after I put the sauce on and re baked it. Im finally realizing that if making the perfect pizza was easy, everybody could do it. Ive seen chefs like Emeril, Bobby Flay etc. fall short of making a decent crust on their shows. I guess we just have to keep experimenting and talking to other people that are also  bakinging pizza. I sure am glad this site is here or i would be totally lost. Keep up the good work.

Offline November

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2007, 09:11:37 PM »
I don't think you need 65% hydration to get a large, open gluten structure that may be conducive to producing bubbling.

Also to state what is already obvious to some, hydration increases as fermentation proceeds.  As starch is converted into alcohol or acetic acid, you get a double-duty effect of solids turning into liquids.  The conditions suitable for bubbling improve dramatically the more active yeast you have in the dough at the start.  Starting with a small amount as you do, Peter, you're not as likely to get bubbling because once the dough has been kneaded, the mobility of yeast colonization is restricted.  Shaping the dough is just the "make-or-break" point for bubbling.  It starts with factors such as yeast and hydration.

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2007, 10:08:00 PM »
November,

Excessive yeast is another reason often given for bubbling, and you are correct that I tend to use small amounts of yeast, but when I have increased the yeast by twice or triple my normal amount I have not gotten the bubbling. Also, for doughboy's dough recipe, presented above, I calculated that he was using 1.64% IDY, along with just under 65% hydration, and he says he is not getting bubbling. On the other hand, doughboy was letting the dough double in volume at room temperature before punching down, dividing and refrigerating (for about 24 hours), following which he let the dough come to room temperature for about 3 hours, but punching down the dough one hour before shaping. Would this dough management regimen destroy or reduce the possibility of getting the bubbles he so cherishes?

Also, as noted previously, by my calculation doughboy is using 13.55 ounce dough balls to make 14" and 16" pizzas. I think it would be difficult to stretch that small amount of dough out to 14"-16" and have a sizable rim to do much with, possibly including getting a lot of bubbles. I've never made such thin pizzas, especially the 16" size, using such a small amount of dough so there may be some issues of oven thermodynamics that have eluded me.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2007, 10:28:34 PM »
Excessive yeast is another reason often given for bubbling, and you are correct that I tend to use small amounts of yeast, but when I have increased the yeast by twice or triple my normal amount I have not gotten the bubbling. Also, for doughboy's dough recipe, presented above, I calculated that he was using 1.64% IDY, along with just under 65% hydration, and he says he is not getting bubbling.

Then it comes down to the "make-or-break" dough handling.  I never "punch down" my dough.  I simply retuck it.  If doughboy would consider doing this, instead of punching his dough, he might get what he's looking for.

I think it would be difficult to stretch that small amount of dough out to 14"-16" and have a sizable rim to do much with, possibly including getting a lot of bubbles.

There would be little chance of bubbles forming, but I've stretched about that amount of dough to 14" before.  It had a sort of mini-rim.

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Offline Randy

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Re: thin- airy crust HELP !!
« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2007, 10:40:07 PM »
November,

Excessive yeast is another reason often given for bubbling, and you are correct that I tend to use small amounts of yeast, but when I have increased the yeast by twice or triple my normal amount I have not gotten the bubbling. . . .

Peter

Of course starting water temperature effects the bubbles as well as yeast amounts.