thin- airy crust HELP !!

[November]

Of course starting water temperature effects the bubbles as well as yeast amounts.

In what respect?  Just as long as the temperature of the dough is the same when placed in the oven, I don't see how the starting temperature directly affects bubble formation.  One of the reasons cold dough causes bubbles is because cold dough has lower gas and water permeability, but once the dough warms up for an appropriate length of time, the gas and liquid that would have caused excessive bubbling has had a chance to diffuse or evaporate.

- red.november

[Randy]

In what respect?  Just as long as the temperature of the dough is the same . . .

- red.november

Water temperature was the only parameter change I mentioned; wrongly, you assumed the dough temperature would not be allowed to rise.

[November]

Water temperature was the only parameter change I mentioned; wrongly, you assumed the dough temperature would not be allowed to rise.

First of all, I know the water temperature was the only parameter change you mentioned, and I asked in what respect would that parameter change matter.  Secondly, I didn't assume anything, I simply asked a question.  Thirdly, I went on to summarize my own knowledge of the process which included allowing the dough temperature to rise ("but once the dough warms up for an appropriate length of time").  So finally, what in the world are you talking about?

- red.november

[grovemonkey]

November..

This may have been discussed in other threads but I'll ask and hopefully you or someone else can respond.  You mention cold dough causes bubbles because the cold dough has a lower gas permeability.  Is there some base temperature range or some general threshold for this behavior in the dough?   Additionally, I wonder about the lower temperature ranges and to what degree the bubbling is experienced?  It's obvious that if you created 10 equal dough balls with marginal variation, except the temperature the dough before it was cooked, you could observer, visually, the degree of bubbling.   Do you have any experience doing this or anyone for that matter? 

I also imagine that the difference between the dough and the oven temp is also quite significant, as a dough entering the oven at 1000F verse a dough entering an oven at 500F is going to react differently.   I wonder what the significance of a 20F or 30F difference in the dough temp entering a 1000F oven verse a 500F. 

Grover of Monkeys.

[November]

grovemonkey,

Any attempt at defining a specific temperature range for ideal or non-deal permeability would be subject to dough formulation.  Not all flour is the same, and not all doughs have the same hydration, pH, lipids, or dissolved solids.  A flour that is more finely milled has the potential to restrict more permeation.  The amount of dissolved solids will play a huge role in trapping water, and specifically near protein if it's salt.  Lipids play their part by slowing water and gas diffusion.  So to choose a temperature range, you have to know your dough very well.  Not only that, but the particular ingredients you use may actually have a greater effect on what's called "cell-opening" than temperature.  Even how long you let your dough rest and allow the starch to pre-gelatinize will have a huge impact.  As starch gelatinizes, the cell structure becomes weak and allows more gas to escape.  Gelatinization increases with temperature as well, right up to water's boiling point.  So your assumption concerning ultra-high temperature ovens is correct, but this can be said about extreme temperature gradients in general.  Any increase in the gradient will result in a greater chance of bubbling, with that chance diminishing as the temperature approaches 172 F and the moisture dropping below 20%.

If you're looking for a universal truth to apply to all types of dough, it is that the lower the temperature (down to 32 F) the higher the higher activation energy will be for fluids (liquids and gases) trying to penetrate cell walls.  Permeability can range anywhere from 0 to 20-25 darcies in bread dough (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darcy's_law).

As far as experience goes, I have kept track of when my dough has bubbled in the past.  However, it's been a while since it has happened because I prefer not to have the bubbles move my toppings around.  In a crust I look for a soft, chewy, and open interior and a slightly crispy exterior, not a carnival sideshow.

- red.november

[grovemonkey]

November,

Thanks for the reply.  I appreciate the detailed reply, lot's of good info.

The only thing that lost me was the idea you don't want your pizza looking like a carnival sideshow.  Is that a reference to the previous sentence where you prefer not having the bubble move your toppings? (bubbles look similar to ballons?!?!?... balloons are found at carnivals.. carnivals sometimes have sideshows... therefore carnival sideshows have ballons and ballons have the same symbolism of pizza bubbles...) 

Perhaps you just are refering to the fact that carnival sideshows are lowest of the low and anything besides the characteristics you describe (soft, chewy, etc), are unacceptable?  Either way, I've digressed.

Thanks for the information.

Grove



 

[Jimmy V]

I went back and tried a recipe i was kind of happy with:
202 grams flour
127.6 grams water
1/2 tesp. oil
3.55 grams salt
1/2 tsp. instant yeast

Anyway, the first time i made this, the dough didnt rise much at all and it wasnt very elastic so I would up using a rolling pin, the crust was thin but not "airy" and browed up nice on the bottom.
This time, I let the dough sit  twice as long at room temp after being in the fridge over night like the last batch, and this time it did rise about 25%, this time the dough was very eleastic and i stretched it by hand. After baking it it came out thin, not airy, and this time the crust didnt brown at ALL. SO, I have proven unfortunately that I do not have "repeatability" whcih was what i was hoping for.
I will move on to the "New-York" style crust that I found on this site and try that, after that recipe, i will go back to Randy's and try that one again.

[Jack]

Jimmy,

You may find success faster if you stick to the one kind of pizza/dough that you like the most and concentrate your efforts on that one.

I spent a lot of time getting my NY Style working consistently well.  What I learned about dough was carried over into the Sicilian, which while very different, is kind-of the same too.  Now I'm going after cracker style, as I've tried it casually three times in the past, but did not get where I wanted to be.  Now I will concentrate my efforts and nail the cracker style too.

Just something to think about.

Jack

[Jimmy V]

I agree Jack, and I will stick with one brand from now on. But what I wanted to do was simply see if I could duplicatea recipe and come out with the same results, and i didnt so that made me wonder. Im persistant tho.

[doughboy]

doughboy,

I have never been able to "program" bubbles into my doughs. They just seem to happen and, since I don't mind some bubbling, I take them as a nice diversion. Member November feels that bubbling occurs based on how the dough is formed into the final shape, and that you need a large, open gluten structure in order to get bubbles. I do know for a fact that pizza operators often get large bubbles in the finished crust when the dough is shaped cold, and especially so if the dough did not get sufficient fermentation. When I intentionally implemented those aspects into my doughs, even at high hydration levels, I did not get bubbling. So maybe my dough shaping skills are in need of help if I am to get better bubbling.

I don't think you need 65% hydration to get a large, open gluten structure that may be conducive to producing bubbling. If you are using bread flour and sifting it, you should get improved hydration of the flour (the extent may depend on how you are mixing and kneading), and you may well end up using 65% hydration without incident (e.g., without getting an overly wet dough). However, the rated absorption rate of bread flour is somewhere around 61-62%. You could try that rate, which might also help with the gummy/undercooked dough problem you say you have been experiencing.

As far as kneading is concerned, I perhaps shouldn't have used the term overkneading as loosely as I did. The point I was trying to make is that you don't want to overwork the dough. If anything, you want it to be slightly underkneaded. I do not believe that you can destroy the gluten structure of a dough by hand kneading, but I do believe that you can go overboard and knead the dough too much and get a small, tight crumb structure. What I don't know is what effect high hydration levels and hand kneading have when you are making super thin crusts with smallish rims. This is one of those cases where I wish I could see some photos of the pizzas and a cross section of the rims. At least I would have a better idea of what you are experiencing and be able to speak more intelligently on the matter.

Peter

peter
finally home lone enough to make that adjusted dough,   receipe is now

100% flour  15.25 oz
61.9% water 9.45 oz at 75 degrees
1.64% sugar, .25 oz
2.3% kosher salt  .353oz
6.56 oil, 1oz
.98 % idy 0.15 oz

I kept my autolayse at about 30 min and  with only one kneading session of 5 min, it came out smooth and creamy, I was concerned it wouldn't smooth out and be silky, but it was.   I mixed the water and sugar, added the yeast to the flour, as you suggested.  I made these adjustments over 2 batches.  I put in ref. after the last kneading session and stayed there until next day, over 24 hrs, I took the dough balls out of the ref about an hour before cooking, didn't punch down just shaped the pies. They were very workable and formed nicely, I also made sure they were smaller 12-13 inches with a good rim.  Nice bubble formation around the rim area, they came out soft and tasty, they cooked about 9 min at 500 on a stone, I did still have some gummy areas, but overall just great  extremely happy with the overall outcome.
I will now try to replicate over the next batches, normaly my pies do come out pretty much the same once I get zero'ed on the mix, I guess that comes from using the scales.

Thanks again for the awsome info, everyone.....   if there is still anything that sticks out that I can change to help that dough, let me know.

Dennis

[Pete-zza]

Dennis,

I'm glad that your most recent pizzas turned out well for you. Now you have a baseline pizza dough formula with which to conduct further experiments, which I encourage you to do. With each experiment you will learn something new to help you make better pizzas.

Peter

[Randy]

I second Peter's encouragement to do your own testing.  You baking will really improve as you learn what changes do what to your dough.  Before long, you will be designing your own pizzas.

[Jimmy V]

o.k.  as I mentioned as i get "close" with some of these recipes, Im going for "Duplication" to see if I can repeat what works. I have tried recipe # 2 from previous post for the third time. The results are fairly good cocnsistantbut the first time the crust browned very nice, the last two times, the crust did not brown as well. The only difference between the first crust and the last 2 is, in the first recipe I spilt the flour   50% Pillsbury bread flour, and  50% King Arthur
"pizza special blend" now Ive just been using Pillsbury.
But still not much "airyness"

[Jimmy V]

I just tried the  "NEW YORK STYLE" pizza recipe posted on this site. Not what Im looking for. The dough DID bubble-up during the baking process, but when I sliced into the "bubble" I wanted to see air, instead, it was filled with light dough.Im still searching for that elusive  THIN-AIRY crust recipe.

[Jimmy V]

The picture in Randy's post ( # 29 ) in this thread seems to be exaclty what im looking for. I have tried the recipe one time without having mine come out looking like his. As I recall I may have tried making 3 pizzas instead of 2 as mentioned in his recipe, that must have effected the results. I will keep on trying .