Author Topic: wild yeast starter for pizza crust? (Read 6720 times)

ml · « **on:** January 09, 2007, 12:56:13 PM »

Does anyone use wild yeast for pizza making at home? If so, how do you convert the IDY or ADY yeast in a recipe over to wild yeast starter? What would the taste difference be in the baked crust?

ml

Pete-zza · « **Reply #1 on:** January 09, 2007, 01:14:37 PM »

ml,

The short answer is yes. There is an entire section of the board devoted to starters, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/board,37.0.html. You will also find an enormous amount of information on the use of starters in the Neapolitan style section of the forum.

I have seen attempts to convert ADY/IDY quantities to starter quantities but I tend to view such conversions with suspicion. Not all starters behave the same, either because of their unique inherent differences, the degree of their virility, and their state of readiness at the time of use. Also, some starters are used on the "wet" side and some are used on the "stiff" side. And some are used solely as leavening agents (usually in very small amounts) and not to necessarily impart other characteristics normally associated with starters and preferments. The taste differences can be huge. In addition, the textural differences are much better in my opinion.

Peter

ml · « **Reply #2 on:** January 09, 2007, 03:15:53 PM »

Peter,

Thank you for the starter site. What I was thinking is that after reading your thread about the new Kitchen Aid process, and viewing the photos of your pizza, I want to try making it using your recipe and process that is in your thread. However, I still have to order the Caputo Pizza flour, and the 6 in 1 tomatoes before my first attempt. Since I already have a starter cultivated, I was wondering how to use that in place of the IDY in your recipe. This would be my first home-made pizza attempt, so I don't want to have a complete flop because of not knowing the substitutes. Otherwise, I'll try it using the IDY as in your recipe. Thanks

ml

ml · « **Reply #3 on:** January 09, 2007, 03:54:48 PM »

Peter,

I just re-read your formulation, and see that you used KASL -- do you think the Caputo pizza flour would produce the same result? Or is KASL better for your formula?

thanks
ML

Pete-zza · « **Reply #4 on:** January 09, 2007, 05:36:02 PM »

ml,

If you propose to try the new dough making method, I suggest that you use either bread flour or high-gluten flour, like the KASL. I would not use the Caputo 00 flour because it will not produce the same results when the dough is baked in a standard home oven. The results with the Caputo will be completely different because the Caputo 00 doughs are best adapted to very high temperature ovens—those that can produce temperatures in excess of 700 degrees F. If you have such an oven, then I would use a different dough formulation—one with a more Neapolitan character. In due course, as I work my way through my list of future experiments, I intend to use the new dough making method with Caputo 00 flour and a natural preferment because I think the new method will work with those ingredients. Even then, it is likely that I will use a different dough formulation, not a Lehmann one even though that should work also.

If you would like to try the new dough making method, I suggest that you use IDY, or ADY if that is what you normally use. It is possible to use a natural starter or preferment with a Lehmann NY style dough formulation, but it can be quite a challenge. You will see what I mean if you read some of my experiments along those lines as reported at the following posts: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774 (Reply 151).
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12644.html#msg12644 (Reply
165), and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12748.html#msg12748 (Reply 175).

If, after reading the above posts you feel you would still like to make your first pizza with a starter, I think I can help you come up with a dough formulation to try. What I will need from you in that case is the percentage of water used in your starter. If you don’t know what that number is, maybe you can tell me how much flour and water you use to refresh your starter, either by volume or weight. I might be able to calculate the percent water from those numbers. It is also possible to supplement the natural starter with commercial yeast if you'd like.

Peter

ml · « **Reply #5 on:** January 09, 2007, 05:45:18 PM »

Peter,

Thank you for the info, I will read what you suggest, and get back to you. I appreciate your willingness to help. My oven goes at least to 550F, tonight I'll see if it goes higher--- I know it gets to higher temps on auto clean, but that doesn't do any good for pizzamaking!!! I think I'd be afraid to go much higher at home anyway.

ml

ml · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2007, 12:11:42 PM »

Peter,

So; I do want to try using starter of wild yeast. while I don't know how much water is in the starter now, I will refresh it with equal amounts of water and flour, by weight. But I want to use your Kitche Aid method( except with a Viking), where you used the cold water and placed in the refridgerator immediately. That flavor development is what I want to try, so if you can advise on how much starter you think it would be to replace the yeast, I would be grateful. thank you ml

Pete-zza · « **Reply #7 on:** January 10, 2007, 12:51:04 PM »

ml,

Which dough recipe will you be using?

Peter

ml · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2007, 01:34:58 PM »

KASL Flour (100%): 190.85 g | 6.73 oz | 0.42 lbs
Water (65%): 124.05 g | 4.38 oz | 0.27 lbs
Oil (1%): 1.91 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Salt (1.75%): 3.34 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
IDY (0.25%): 0.48 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Sugar (0%): 0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (168%): 320.63 g | 11.31 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = 0.1

This is the one, from your other thread for Kitchen Aid process. ML

Pete-zza · « **Reply #9 on:** January 10, 2007, 03:01:50 PM »

ml,

I have taken a stab at reformulating the Lehmann dough formulation you referenced to use a natural preferment at the rate of 20% by weight of flour and having a percentage of water of 50% (representing equal amounts of flour and water by weight). As you know, I have not tried the new dough making method using a natural preferment, so you will be in the forefront on this one. You will also note that I increased the quantities of ingredients by 2.5%, which is a “bowl residue” to compensate for minor dough losses during the course of making the dough.

This is what I come up with:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%): 195.91 g | 6.91 oz | 0.43 lbs
Water (65%): 127.34 g | 4.49 oz | 0.28 lbs
Salt (1.75%): 3.43 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Oil (1%): 1.96 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Total (167.75%): 328.65 g | 11.59 oz | 0.72 lbs | TF = 0.1025

Preferment:
Flour: 19.59 g | 0.69 oz | 0.04 lbs
Water: 19.59 g | 0.69 oz | 0.04 lbs
Total: 39.18 g | 1.38 oz | 0.09 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour: 176.32 g | 6.22 oz | 0.39 lbs
Water: 107.75 g | 3.8 oz | 0.24 lbs
Salt: 3.43 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Preferment: 39.18 g | 1.38 oz | 0.09 lbs
Oil: 1.96 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Total: 328.65 g | 11.59 oz | 0.72 lbs | TF = 0.1025

The section you will actually be using is the Final Dough section. That section specifies all of the ingredients you will combine, including the preferment itself, to prepare the final dough.

Good luck. If you decide to post your results, please do so at the new dough making method thread, along with the dough formulation and the way you managed the dough and made a pizza out of it. Any photos will be much appreciated. Thanks.

Peter

ml · « **Reply #10 on:** January 10, 2007, 03:43:23 PM »

Peter,

Thank you for this, I appreciate your time in coming up with a formula. I will indeed post my results, however, be aware that this will be my first pizza, so I do not think that my critique will be very technical for most on this site. At this time, I do not have a way to post pictures, but I could gladly send one via USPS. My starter is frozen at the moment, and it requires 3 days to thaw in refrigerator-- it may be 10 days or so, since I also ordered the 6 in 1 tomatoes this morning, so I'll wait for those too. BTW, 75 cents to ship them to me!!!

thanks again,

ML

ml · « **Reply #11 on:** January 11, 2007, 12:31:51 PM »

Peter,

I thought I would let you know my plans and schedule. I am going to try to make 2 doughs, one with IDY and one with the pre-ferment,so that I have a comparison. That way, maybe I can provide you some information that will be useful to you. I have the starter thawing in the refridgerator, and I estimate that it will be Friday or Saturday when it is ready for feeding, which I'll do twice at least. So, I will try to make the doughs maybe Monday evening or Tuesday evening, then keep them in the refridgerator for several days-- probably baking the pizzas next weekend. I will try to notice all that I can and report back. I don't have a pizza stone, so I thought that I would place them on an inverted pan, similar to what is described in Reinhardt's Breadmaker's Apprentice
Also, I plan to add the IDY and preferments late, as in your KA process, hydrating the flour first.
Will keep you posted. I'll try to remember to post the results on the other thread, too.

ML

scott r · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2007, 12:43:34 PM »

ML, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I am not sure your starter will totally recover from freezing. I have been reading a bunch on the subject and it is tough to tell the fact from fiction, however... I am almost positive that there are certain organisms in most starters that can be frozen, and other organisms that can not recover from a freeze. I did some experimentation with the ishca starter (from sourdo.com) and it was definitely not the same after a freeze of only a week. I hope your strain is one that will deal with the freeze better.

I have actually been avoiding sending some of my starter to a family member that wants it until the weather warms up again.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2007, 12:48:20 PM »

ml,

Thank you very much for the update. I am looking forward to reading about your results.

I might mention that it is possible to add the preferment early in the dough making process rather that at the end. I was using autolyse-like methods where normally it is not recommended that the yeast be added early because of the potential of the yeast to acidify the dough. But I believe even Professor Calvel ultimately came to approve of adding a natural preferment early in the dough making process because it was not as active as dry yeast in the typical duration of the rest period. It is even possible to add IDY early in the process so long as the autolyse rest period is less than the activation period of the IDY. In your case, I think I would add the natural preferment toward the end of the dough making process, as you have indicated you intend to do.

Peter

ml · « **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2007, 01:03:36 PM »

Scott R.

Well, my plans are contingent upon the starter, for sure. I made this starter using Reinhart's formula and directions in his Breadmaker's Apprentice book. It really smells very good, and I used it to make his Panettone recipe ( which wasn't like authentic panettone at all. but it was good). In that, he gives instructions for freezing and thawing and re-activating the starter. Unless it just doesn't grow, I'll still use it. If it doesn't, I'll just have to start over, which is about 5-6 days. Thanks for the warning, I'll be sure to pay close attention to its activity.

ML

scott r · « **Reply #15 on:** January 11, 2007, 01:14:14 PM »

The starter will still work, but it might not be up to its full potential.

I have also read a few books that have recommended freezing. I have never found a subject before that has so many polar opposite views. That's why I decided to test it myself.

ml · « **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2007, 11:39:24 AM »

Peter,

How would this work with KA unbleached bread flour instead of Sir Lancelot? I thought that I could get KASL in a specialty market here, but it turns out that no one has it. So, if I want to use it I'll need to order from Baker's catalog, or other source. Would the bread flour work?

ML

scott r · « **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:31:04 PM »

ML, sorry to keep hijacking your questions, but I definitely PREFER the KA Bread for NY style recipe's. It ends up with a product more similar to what I get with All Trumps, which I is what the majority of NY pizzerias actually use. Sir Lancelot can be too chewy.

If you make it with the KA bread and you want it tougher and more chewy then go out and pay the crazy shipping charges for the Sir Lancelot.

Also, this recipe kicks butt with a preferment!

ml · « **Reply #18 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:37:01 PM »

Scott,

Thank you, I don't consider your responses, or anyone else's, as hijacking, I appreciate the input. I believe that I will go ahead using the bread flour. I'm excited, this will be my first homemade pizza! I'm a long-time baker of cookies, cakes, other breads-- trying for Panettone,-- but I've never ventured into pizza until now.

ML

Pete-zza · « **Reply #19 on:** January 12, 2007, 12:42:40 PM »

ml,

As scott notes, bread flour is a good substitute for the high-gluten flour in a Lehmann style dough.

In your case, I would lower the hydration level a bit because bread flour has a slightly lower rated absorption rate (hydration) than high-gluten flour. I would modify what I gave you in an earlier post as follows:

Flour (100%): 198.28 g | 6.99 oz | 0.44 lbs
Water (63%): 124.92 g | 4.41 oz | 0.28 lbs
Salt (1.75%): 3.47 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Oil (1%): 1.98 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Total (165.75%): 328.65 g | 11.59 oz | 0.72 lbs | TF = 0.1025

Preferment:
Flour: 19.83 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs
Water: 19.83 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs
Total: 39.66 g | 1.4 oz | 0.09 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour: 178.45 g | 6.29 oz | 0.39 lbs
Water: 105.09 g | 3.71 oz | 0.23 lbs
Salt: 3.47 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Preferment: 39.66 g | 1.4 oz | 0.09 lbs
Oil: 1.98 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Total: 328.65 g | 11.59 oz | 0.72 lbs | TF = 0.1025

Peter