Author Topic: Patsy's Culture question  (Read 3966 times)

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Offline GRAPEAPE

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Patsy's Culture question
« on: November 09, 2006, 01:19:06 PM »
This question is for Jeff Varasano or anyone else that can answer it.

Was it ever determined if Patsy's indeed used a culture?

If so, is Patsy's culture superior to Sourdo.coms italin culture?

Thanx



Offline SLICEofSLOMON

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Re: Patsy's Culture question
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2006, 02:07:21 PM »
Hi Grapeape,

Patsy's did not and does not use a starter in their dough--none of the old timers employed starters or preferments in their doughs. They were all made with a direct mix and slow rise method.

Evelyne

Offline David

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Re: Patsy's Culture question
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2006, 02:36:29 PM »
There is more comment in this thread:

Re: Getting Closer to Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2005, 11:35:23 PM »
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline ernestrome

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Re: Patsy's Culture question
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2006, 12:59:08 PM »
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,778.0.html

Link to thread David mentions.

It would be nice if evelyne could provide some evidence to back up her assertion.


Offline pftaylor

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Re: Patsy's Culture question
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2006, 07:59:39 PM »
ernestrome,
I can support Evelyne 100% on her position that officially Patsy's does not employ a starter. I have probably spent more time at the original Patsy's than most of the employees who have worked there over the years. I have also explored every square inch of the original location in East Harlem with the owner even venturing into the basement beneath the current retail location where the original store was located.

In numerous discussions with the owner, John, suffice to say that I am privy to the exact recipe and dough procedure they use. The only yeast Patsy's uses is fresh.

The original confusion on the matter came up when varasano stated his belief that Patsy's uses a starter of some sort. Kindly re-read the original Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza thread where I conclusively determined that no starter was ever used. That confirmation came from the horses mouth who couldn't even spell preferment and dismissed the notion as nonsense. According to the current owner, if Patsy Lancieri used such a thing it would of cost him much more than what he paid for the joint. And then John would of turned around and charged much more for the licensing fees for the mini chain of Patsy's Pizzerias that now dot the Manhattan landscape. And finally with John being the good businessman he is, he would of jumped on the marketing edge it would give him relative to the other elite coal-fired pizzerias in NYC.

So there is no official starter used in the process. Unofficially though, the dough might be boosted by wild yeast. Confused? So was I at first. Now here is a really wild stretch. I am willing to bet that a wild yeast strain does, in fact, invade the batches of dough which are made on a daily basis. To what extent I have no idea but it is in there. My thinking on this is that since dough has been made in the same location for so long (since 1933) that a strain of wild neighboorhood yeast has set up camp at Patsy's and it now infiltrates the batches of dough as they are made.

What basis do I have to support this theory? My nose. When John and I ventured into the basement where the original pizza shop was set up, the fragrent odor of fermented yeast filled my nostrils immediately. It was powerful and smelled exactly like what the famed varasano preferment smells like.

And that's the rest of the story.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2006, 11:46:11 AM by pftaylor »
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Offline icemncmth

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Re: Patsy's Culture question
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2006, 10:38:15 PM »
I used to work in a bakery..and I can tell you that since bread had been made in the same spot for years wild yeast was
on everything...LOL

I could mix a cup of water and a cup of flour and set it out of the way and I no time it was bubbling...Some
people don't think that it makes that much of a difference but to prove it is easy...

Just look at beer..Chimay to be exact ..many have tried to copy it  but since it has been brewed in the same spot
for years it gains a lot of its flavor from the wild yeast...And the monks who make it know it.. >:D

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Patsy's Culture question
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2006, 11:08:43 AM »
icemncmth,
Thanks for confirming my surmise.
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Offline ernestrome

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Re: Patsy's Culture question
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2006, 03:56:42 AM »
Thanks for the info guys.

I think the stuff i have has a very sweet toffee flavour, it is a great starter.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Patsy's Culture question
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2006, 07:50:48 AM »
There are actually theories and experiment on airbone wild yeast presence in bakeries/pizzeria, but more on this later... (much later ;-) However there MUST be certain conditions of temperature and time for this airbone element to ferment WITHIN a dough in which Commercial yeast was used. I do not believe that in Patsy's in East Harlem there are such conditions and I'm very confident that the Pizza I have eaten at Patsy's was NOT affected by Lactic/Acid and mallic fermentations.

The only thing I could cleary identify in Patsy pizza was a clear Bromated flour profile.


Offline ehlaban

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Re: Patsy's Culture question
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2006, 03:58:28 AM »
so in a way Jeff is right. If Patsy's doesn't use a starter but a wild strain comes into
the dough when standing there for some time and time and time. The only way to replicate it is to use
a starter because the wild yeast strain is not in your kitchen.


Offline Natural-leaven

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Re: Patsy's Culture question
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2007, 09:16:27 PM »
I have no knowledge about whether Patsy's uses a sourdough culture or not. 

I am certain however that even if wild yeast were all over the place they do not have time enough to replicate and contribute significantly to flavor by simply being absorbed from the atmosphere.  They must be introduced in sufficient quantity.  In any busy place they will be turning out so much dough that it is virtually impossible for passive inoculation to impact flavor because the fermentation time is not long enough for the yeast/lactobacilli to multiply.  Flavor will only be impacted if old dough is added or the pre-culture is added in sufficient amounts for the relatively short fermentations of a busy place.


Offline yongjoo

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Re: Patsy's Culture question
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2007, 01:05:33 PM »
First off, I'm new and this my first post. I've made pizza in the past, but never on this new level that I'm learning here. I've done a search for people who have used sourdo.com, but no one has confirmed if the italian yeast is a good yeast or not. Or maybe my search tecnhiques stink  :D.

Anyway, if anyone can confirm that this IS the way to go, that would greatly appreciated. And, hopefully soon, I can post my first Jeff Varasano's pizza pics!

Offline scott r

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Re: Patsy's Culture question
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2007, 01:09:12 PM »
the best products that have come out of my kitchen were made with one of the sourdo.com italian starters.  I would not hesitate to use them, but they are a bit of a pain to activate.   If you want instant gratification you could order a starter from king arthur.  They come already active.



 

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