Author Topic: Dinner Tonight  (Read 19340 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2007, 05:23:38 PM »
Glutenboy,

Another great job. And thank you for posting the exact weights of ingredients.

In answer to your question, it is not unusual for the final dough weight to be less than the total of the listed weights of the ingredients. That phenomenon is one that some of us refer to as the "bowl residue" factor. It represents minor losses of the dough during preparation, for example, due to flour, water and dough sticking to bowls, implements, fingers, work surfaces, etc. All of the dough calculating tools that Boy Hits Car (Milke) and I have been working on will include a "bowl residue" feature that will allow users to specify a percent for the bowl residue. I have found that with my KichenAid dough making regimen about 2.5% covers such losses. In your case, if you got 1260 grams of dough (4 x 315 = 1260) and your total ingredient weight was 1287 grams, the loss was about 2.14%.  The way the ingredients would show up in the new and improved Lehmann dough calculating tool using a bowl residue compensation amount of 2.14% would be as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (65.7895%):
ADY (0.92105%):
Salt (2.63157%):
Total (169.34212%):
190 g  |  6.7 oz | 0.42 lbs
125 g  |  4.41 oz | 0.28 lbs
1.75 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
5 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.9 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
321.75 g | 11.35 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = N/A

The actual dough amount in your hands would most likely be closer to the 315 grams you  have been getting. If you wanted even more dough, you could adjust the numbers to get the greater amount of dough. With the new tool, you can use the desired dough ball weight as a starting point.

Based on the 315-gram dough balls you have been using for 16” pizzas, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.055261. That would represent a very very thin crust. I think one of the things that may be helping you get such good results is that you appear to be getting a very high stone temperature by virtue of its proximity to the broiler element at the bottom of your oven. Have you ever checked the temperature of the stone when you deposit the pizza on it? A high stone temperature, together with ample yeast and good amounts of trapped gasses and moisture, should give you good oven spring. Are you able to keep your broiler on for as long as you want or does it kick out at a certain temperature?

Your dough formulation looks quite normal in terms of hydration and yeast quantity, although it is high on salt. It is quite possible that the high salt level helped prolong the usable dough life by slowing down the rate of fermentation, which is one of the effects that high salt levels has on fermentation. I am not sure how much effect degassing the risen dough after a few days had in prolonging the usable dough life. In theory, degassing the dough expels gasses but it introduces additional oxygen and redistributes the yeast to new sources of food. As long as there is enough food to feed the yeast, and the dough is kept on the cool side, the dough will persist for some time. Obviously, whatever you have been doing it is working. I can always think of experiments to try but sometimes it is best not to tinker with success. But you have given me a few ideas to try on some of my own doughs.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 18, 2007, 04:45:22 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline chiguy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2007, 06:26:04 PM »
 hi Glutenboy,
 Two times a charm, the second pizza looks even better. I must say that i think that old oven of yours may be running a bit hotter than you think. That is a good amount of charring for a 550-600 degree temperature range.   
                                                                                     Chiguy

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2007, 09:58:12 PM »
Thanks for all the positive feedback.  After being on this board for I think over 2 years, I've developed great admiration for so many of you, and it is a true honor to read your kind words.  :D

Chiguy and Pete-zza --

You were both right.  I could have sworn I bought an 18" peel.  After hearing you both comment on the discrepancy between weight and size, I measured it to be sure, and it's 16", which would make my pies 14".  When I said I measured, I was actually eyeballing the next pie on the peel.  This would make my true thickness factor .07218 if I used that calculator correctly, which I believe is still pretty thin.  I had to set the record straight.  Oh, the egg on my face!!! :-[

Anyway, I just wanted to take this opportunity to express my appreciation.  This place rocks.  I thought I was the only pizza-obsessed nutcase in the world until I stumbled on it.  It's a true wealth of information and pizza-based fellowship.

Peter --

My broiler never cuts out.  That's why the the baking surface gets so hot.  I'm not sure I can measure deck temp with the hanging thermometer I have.

Chiguy --

My thermometer says it's not up past 600 in there.  Maybe it's wrong.  It's certainly cheap.  Could it be that the close proximity of the baking surface to the flames creates a large differential between the deck temp and the ambient temp?

-- GB
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline chiguy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2007, 10:49:30 PM »
 Gluten Boy,
 Dont worry about the size and TF just glad we have the proper TF size .072. It is still on the thin side but the oven spring looks amazing on these pizzas.
 The fact that you are using broiler emement at full blast. For An hour?? I would say that you could possibly be up to 650F by that time.
 The reason i say this is that i have a Thermometer that reads to 650F. When i have ran the clean cycle it hits 650F before an hour is up..The broil element is also a real blast of heat.
 I don't know if you will be able determine for sure unless you had an IR thermometer.
Nevertheless you are doing something right cause these pies look great, nice crumb structure and light hand on the toppings.      Chiguy

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2007, 11:30:50 AM »
Glutenboy,

Just made my first attempt last night using All Trumps flour. I did it exactly as you stated.
 
A question that came to mind was, when I was dividing the doughs after the 1 hour counter rise, how tight are you rolling the individual doughs? I could see the gas/air deflating in each dough, the more that I did it the smaller the individual doughs became. I did it to a reasonable size but I wanted your input on this point. Are you attempting to eliminate all or some of the increase?

Also please speak to the same point on the after 2 days in the fridge point.

Please advise.  :)

Thank-you  again.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2007, 12:40:27 PM »
MWTC --

When I do it, I degas it as thoroughly as I can both times.  Usually I don't even divide it up until after the counter rise, but I don't think the order there is critical.  When I pull the dough balls tight, I do a thing where I squeeze them through the circle of my thumb and forefinger so that the dough bulges out the top of my hand in a nice perfect bubble.  then I pinch together the tail end thoroughly.  I saw an italian pizzaiolo do it on TV, and it really does produce nice smooth rounds of dough.  So the bottom line is, yeah, get all the air out.  Same after 2 days.  Just to be clear, I don't reknead the dough, just degas and pull tight.  I try to preserve at least part of the outer surface.

-- GB
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 12:46:46 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2007, 11:48:23 AM »
Glutenboy,

The results are in !!!  :D

As you can see I am smiling but its not the biggest grin.  ;D

Overall it was really pleasing .... but the one thing that stood out so much that it needs adjustment. .... salt.  The taste of salt stays in my mouth long after the slice is gone. It isn't overpowering but it is loud. I use sea salt, 20g as you designed. Is that type effecting the taste as compared with your type that you are using? If the type isn't the issue please advise as to what you have experienced with reducing the amount of salt. I was thinking of reducing it by half, what do you think the effect will be? I know salt effects the yeast activity, whats your take on this?

I really liked the dough except for the salty taste. I will be watching the flavor of the dough over the next 3 pizza that are left to see how it grows.

Check out the pics.

MWTC  :chef:

Dough on the 5th day. Right out of the fridge.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 11:59:54 AM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2007, 11:50:28 AM »
Dough after the 1 hour counter rise.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 12:00:44 PM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2007, 11:52:07 AM »
Just stretched to 9.5 inches. A little thicker than yours.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 12:02:44 PM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2007, 11:53:11 AM »
Red.November's Sauce, using 6 in 1 Tomatoes.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 12:03:47 PM by MWTC »


Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2007, 11:54:22 AM »
Hormel pepperoni, Bel Gioioso fresh mozzarella, Part skim Mozzarella + Munster @ 50/50.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 12:07:18 PM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2007, 11:55:28 AM »
Right out of the oven.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 12:07:52 PM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2007, 11:56:49 AM »
The Slice.

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2007, 06:42:47 PM »
Only a little smile?!  :o  I am puzzled about the salt.  Could be I like more salt than you do, but it sounds like it must have been pretty salty to leave that kind of aftertaste.  It's certainly not something I ever noticed or would even enjoy for that matter.  I've made lots of dough for lots of different people using that much salt, and no one has ever even commented on saltiness.  This leads me to believe that perhaps my posted formula is inaccurate (a distinct possibility since Pete-zza also commented that it seemed like a high percentage of salt).  The 20 grams translates to 2 slightly rounded teaspoons.  Would you say that's how much you used?  At any rate, you should feel free to cut back on the salt until the flavor suits you.  You might want to also cut back on the yeast a bit as theoretically the reduced salt content will heighten its activity.  I think if you keep the other techniques as they are, these adjustments shouldn't affect the other qualities of the dough too much.  By the way, the crust looks great.  Nice open crumb.  How did the dough handle?

-- Glutenboy
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 06:58:39 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2007, 06:57:14 PM »
I just looked at the part of this thread where Peter scaled my recipe for one dough ball.  It looked like 5g of salt (the amount you would have used for 1 pie)  according to him equals .9 teaspoon (and I have full confidence in his precision!  ;) ).  If I'm using 2 rounded teaspoons for 4 pies, that should be only a bit over half a teaspoon for one pie - NOT .9!!!  If my calculations are correct, that means the correct amount of salt is in the range of 12.5-14.5 grams (depending on how rounded those teaspoons are) instead of 20 grams per 760 grams flour (bakers percentage 1.645% - 1.908%).  It does sound more reasonable, doesn't it?  I have a salter scale, and I have a feeling that it loses accuracy when the measurement is very small.  The only reason I'm absolutely sure about the yeast is because the weight is listed in grams on the envelope.  I did repeat my measurements several times when I was scaling, but I have my doubts.  Try keeping everything else the same and cutting back the salt to there.  That will hopefully get you much closer to what I actually did and to the intended result.
If the dough's too salty, I say trash it and start over.  Please keep me posted.

P.S. My conversions from volume to weight today were made using this tool:

http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/cookingconversions.asp

-- GB
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 09:28:56 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2007, 07:33:02 PM »
Pete-zza --

Judging by this issue, I suspect that perhaps where very small amounts are concerned, volumetric measurement with mathematical conversion to weight can frequently be more accurate than direct weighing unless you are using a really high-caliber scale.  Has this been your experience?

-- Glutenboy
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2007, 08:27:00 PM »
Glutenboy,

If you actually used 20 grams of ordinary table salt (not Kosher salt), that amount would be around 3 1/2 level teaspoons. If you in fact used 2 rounded teaspoons, the percent relative to the flour should have been less than what I quoted when I converted your dough recipe to baker's percents.

I have a special scale that I sometimes use to weigh out small quantities of ingredients, especially lightweight ingredients for which either no conversion data is available or it is suspect. I use that scale (a MyWeigh 300-Z) mainly for converting teaspoons of ingredients to weights, as I did on several occasions recently to get conversion data to use in the various dough calculating tools Boy Hits Car and I have been working on. When making pizza dough for myself, I usually don't use that scale. I use the conversion data for the small quantities of ingredients, like yeast and salt, and for the flour and water I use my normal digital scale. I have found that the conversion data is quite close to what I would weight out on my MyWeigh 300-Z, so there isn't much to be gained from using the small scale. Accuracy also gets lost when using normal measuring spoons. I use level teaspoons but most people are likely to err on the high side by using rounded teaspoons. Or, if they are salt conscious, they might use scant teaspoons. Since we are eyeballing things, a lot of the accuracy gets lost. And not all measuring spoons are the same. Their designs can vary all over the place, so there is no guarantee of accuracy. Usually, the loss of accuracy and precision is not enough to materially throw off a recipe. If MWTC is able to tell us how much salt he used, and how he arrived at the amount, we might get clarity on the matter.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 09:11:08 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2007, 08:53:32 PM »
Glutenboy,

The dough handled beautifully.  ;D

I used exactly 20 grams of salt. It was very close to 1 tablespoon. I have a MyWeight Durascale 50. It reads to 0.01 gram, a very nice scale for small amounts of ingredients.

I will trash the balance of the doughs and start over tonight. I will use 13 grams of salt and see what we get.

Do you think that I should start using it on the end of the 4th day and not on the 5th day as I did on this one?

I'll keep you posted as to the results.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2007, 09:26:52 PM »
I find that the 4th day is the first day that I even want to use it.  Day 5 should be even better.  I find 4-6 days is usually optimal for flavor so don't sweat that too much.  This last time the 8-day dough was delicious, but I have a feeling I was nearing the end of the line.

-- GB
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2007, 10:11:17 PM »
Peter --

I'm pretty confident of my volume measurements by measuring spoon because I own a set of Endurance spoons.  Maggie Glezer in her book Artisan Baking says that they are the best calibrated measuring spoons on the market and always measure true.  So I would actually trust my volume measurements over my weight measurements at that level.  The salt I used was sea salt, but it was the consistency of ordinary table salt, so I'd say the conversion tables would be pretty accurate.  Therefore, it sounds like my 20g measurement was a bum steer.  Gotta get me a MyWeigh 300-Z!!!
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.