Author Topic: Dinner Tonight  (Read 21057 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Glutenboy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 426
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Pizza & Sex -- Good? Great! Bad? Still okay.
    • My Pizza Gallery
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2007, 12:40:27 PM »
MWTC --

When I do it, I degas it as thoroughly as I can both times.  Usually I don't even divide it up until after the counter rise, but I don't think the order there is critical.  When I pull the dough balls tight, I do a thing where I squeeze them through the circle of my thumb and forefinger so that the dough bulges out the top of my hand in a nice perfect bubble.  then I pinch together the tail end thoroughly.  I saw an italian pizzaiolo do it on TV, and it really does produce nice smooth rounds of dough.  So the bottom line is, yeah, get all the air out.  Same after 2 days.  Just to be clear, I don't reknead the dough, just degas and pull tight.  I try to preserve at least part of the outer surface.

-- GB
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 12:46:46 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.


Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2007, 11:48:23 AM »
Glutenboy,

The results are in !!!  :D

As you can see I am smiling but its not the biggest grin.  ;D

Overall it was really pleasing .... but the one thing that stood out so much that it needs adjustment. .... salt.  The taste of salt stays in my mouth long after the slice is gone. It isn't overpowering but it is loud. I use sea salt, 20g as you designed. Is that type effecting the taste as compared with your type that you are using? If the type isn't the issue please advise as to what you have experienced with reducing the amount of salt. I was thinking of reducing it by half, what do you think the effect will be? I know salt effects the yeast activity, whats your take on this?

I really liked the dough except for the salty taste. I will be watching the flavor of the dough over the next 3 pizza that are left to see how it grows.

Check out the pics.

MWTC  :chef:

Dough on the 5th day. Right out of the fridge.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 11:59:54 AM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2007, 11:50:28 AM »
Dough after the 1 hour counter rise.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 12:00:44 PM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2007, 11:52:07 AM »
Just stretched to 9.5 inches. A little thicker than yours.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 12:02:44 PM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2007, 11:53:11 AM »
Red.November's Sauce, using 6 in 1 Tomatoes.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 12:03:47 PM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2007, 11:54:22 AM »
Hormel pepperoni, Bel Gioioso fresh mozzarella, Part skim Mozzarella + Munster @ 50/50.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 12:07:18 PM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2007, 11:55:28 AM »
Right out of the oven.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 12:07:52 PM by MWTC »

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2007, 11:56:49 AM »
The Slice.

Offline Glutenboy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 426
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Pizza & Sex -- Good? Great! Bad? Still okay.
    • My Pizza Gallery
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2007, 06:42:47 PM »
Only a little smile?!  :o  I am puzzled about the salt.  Could be I like more salt than you do, but it sounds like it must have been pretty salty to leave that kind of aftertaste.  It's certainly not something I ever noticed or would even enjoy for that matter.  I've made lots of dough for lots of different people using that much salt, and no one has ever even commented on saltiness.  This leads me to believe that perhaps my posted formula is inaccurate (a distinct possibility since Pete-zza also commented that it seemed like a high percentage of salt).  The 20 grams translates to 2 slightly rounded teaspoons.  Would you say that's how much you used?  At any rate, you should feel free to cut back on the salt until the flavor suits you.  You might want to also cut back on the yeast a bit as theoretically the reduced salt content will heighten its activity.  I think if you keep the other techniques as they are, these adjustments shouldn't affect the other qualities of the dough too much.  By the way, the crust looks great.  Nice open crumb.  How did the dough handle?

-- Glutenboy
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 06:58:39 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.


Offline Glutenboy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 426
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Pizza & Sex -- Good? Great! Bad? Still okay.
    • My Pizza Gallery
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2007, 06:57:14 PM »
I just looked at the part of this thread where Peter scaled my recipe for one dough ball.  It looked like 5g of salt (the amount you would have used for 1 pie)  according to him equals .9 teaspoon (and I have full confidence in his precision!  ;) ).  If I'm using 2 rounded teaspoons for 4 pies, that should be only a bit over half a teaspoon for one pie - NOT .9!!!  If my calculations are correct, that means the correct amount of salt is in the range of 12.5-14.5 grams (depending on how rounded those teaspoons are) instead of 20 grams per 760 grams flour (bakers percentage 1.645% - 1.908%).  It does sound more reasonable, doesn't it?  I have a salter scale, and I have a feeling that it loses accuracy when the measurement is very small.  The only reason I'm absolutely sure about the yeast is because the weight is listed in grams on the envelope.  I did repeat my measurements several times when I was scaling, but I have my doubts.  Try keeping everything else the same and cutting back the salt to there.  That will hopefully get you much closer to what I actually did and to the intended result.
If the dough's too salty, I say trash it and start over.  Please keep me posted.

P.S. My conversions from volume to weight today were made using this tool:

http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/cookingconversions.asp

-- GB
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 09:28:56 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Glutenboy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 426
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Pizza & Sex -- Good? Great! Bad? Still okay.
    • My Pizza Gallery
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2007, 07:33:02 PM »
Pete-zza --

Judging by this issue, I suspect that perhaps where very small amounts are concerned, volumetric measurement with mathematical conversion to weight can frequently be more accurate than direct weighing unless you are using a really high-caliber scale.  Has this been your experience?

-- Glutenboy
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2007, 08:27:00 PM »
Glutenboy,

If you actually used 20 grams of ordinary table salt (not Kosher salt), that amount would be around 3 1/2 level teaspoons. If you in fact used 2 rounded teaspoons, the percent relative to the flour should have been less than what I quoted when I converted your dough recipe to baker's percents.

I have a special scale that I sometimes use to weigh out small quantities of ingredients, especially lightweight ingredients for which either no conversion data is available or it is suspect. I use that scale (a MyWeigh 300-Z) mainly for converting teaspoons of ingredients to weights, as I did on several occasions recently to get conversion data to use in the various dough calculating tools Boy Hits Car and I have been working on. When making pizza dough for myself, I usually don't use that scale. I use the conversion data for the small quantities of ingredients, like yeast and salt, and for the flour and water I use my normal digital scale. I have found that the conversion data is quite close to what I would weight out on my MyWeigh 300-Z, so there isn't much to be gained from using the small scale. Accuracy also gets lost when using normal measuring spoons. I use level teaspoons but most people are likely to err on the high side by using rounded teaspoons. Or, if they are salt conscious, they might use scant teaspoons. Since we are eyeballing things, a lot of the accuracy gets lost. And not all measuring spoons are the same. Their designs can vary all over the place, so there is no guarantee of accuracy. Usually, the loss of accuracy and precision is not enough to materially throw off a recipe. If MWTC is able to tell us how much salt he used, and how he arrived at the amount, we might get clarity on the matter.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 09:11:08 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2007, 08:53:32 PM »
Glutenboy,

The dough handled beautifully.  ;D

I used exactly 20 grams of salt. It was very close to 1 tablespoon. I have a MyWeight Durascale 50. It reads to 0.01 gram, a very nice scale for small amounts of ingredients.

I will trash the balance of the doughs and start over tonight. I will use 13 grams of salt and see what we get.

Do you think that I should start using it on the end of the 4th day and not on the 5th day as I did on this one?

I'll keep you posted as to the results.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Glutenboy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 426
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Pizza & Sex -- Good? Great! Bad? Still okay.
    • My Pizza Gallery
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2007, 09:26:52 PM »
I find that the 4th day is the first day that I even want to use it.  Day 5 should be even better.  I find 4-6 days is usually optimal for flavor so don't sweat that too much.  This last time the 8-day dough was delicious, but I have a feeling I was nearing the end of the line.

-- GB
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Glutenboy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 426
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Pizza & Sex -- Good? Great! Bad? Still okay.
    • My Pizza Gallery
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2007, 10:11:17 PM »
Peter --

I'm pretty confident of my volume measurements by measuring spoon because I own a set of Endurance spoons.  Maggie Glezer in her book Artisan Baking says that they are the best calibrated measuring spoons on the market and always measure true.  So I would actually trust my volume measurements over my weight measurements at that level.  The salt I used was sea salt, but it was the consistency of ordinary table salt, so I'd say the conversion tables would be pretty accurate.  Therefore, it sounds like my 20g measurement was a bum steer.  Gotta get me a MyWeigh 300-Z!!!
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline nepa-pizza-snob

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 134
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2007, 10:42:14 PM »
I use a similar lean approach to my dough, but sldom have the patience to let balls sit in the cold for more than 2-3 days. I would like to try your degassing approach - 2 questions. When do you degas
after 2 days? exactly how does one degas? press / squish gently?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23362
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2007, 09:28:58 AM »
Glutenboy,

Over time, I developed a list of conversion factors for different ingredients so I do not need a scale just to weigh small amounts of ingredients. I bought the MyWeigh unit mainly to see if it was needed in order to get good results and, secondarily, to be able to do conversions when data for doing so was unavailable or suspect. I concluded that on balance my conversion data on paper was good enough.

I once weighed a teaspoon of fine sea salt and the weight was so close to that for ordinary table salt that I saw no need to draw a distinction between them. In fact, when the numbers were rounded to two decimal places, they were the same. I like having the MyWeigh unit around but because of my "database" I could live without it.

My interest in the salt level was in relation to its effect on slowing down the rate of fermentation and its possible effect on prolonging dough life. I know that both you and MWTC have been getting dough lives greater than normal so I wanted to see if the salt was responsible. I was able to get 12 days with normal salt levels but I was doing other things to get the longer dough life.

Peter



Offline Glutenboy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 426
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Pizza & Sex -- Good? Great! Bad? Still okay.
    • My Pizza Gallery
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2007, 12:59:46 PM »
Nepa-Pizza-Snob --

I am not the final authority on degassing (although in college I was famous for my degassing technique involving a Bic lighter).  But seriously, Nepa...  my technique is to gently but firmly and quickly press the gas out of the dough and pull it down tight into a new ball by extruding it through the circle of my thumb and index finger.  It should come out in a tight, much smaller bubble with a smooth surface and round shape.  Make sure all the air's out, then pinch the bottom together really well to form a seam that won't break when it reexpands.  I do not reknead.  I have read that it is good to preserve the existing outer skin.  Does it really make a difference?  I'm not sure, but it works for me.  Let me know if you have any more questions.  Glad to help.

--GB
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2007, 10:44:30 AM »
Glutenboy,

As promised here is the 2nd round of dough with 13 grams of salt. Everything is fantastic, dough handling, oven spring, browning, crumb development (voids). Picture perfect. Lets work together to increase the flavor. Lets try the poolish experiment. I'll do it, and you do it, and then lets compare notes. I'll start Thursday. Check out this thread. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4625.0.html This is basically how I will proceed.

I will go get some Harvest King flour to see the taste you are getting.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2007, 10:45:58 AM »
The slice.

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2007, 10:47:34 AM »
The leftovers.

Offline Glutenboy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 426
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Pizza & Sex -- Good? Great! Bad? Still okay.
    • My Pizza Gallery
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2007, 01:36:14 PM »
Nice crumb!  Looks light and airy.  I don't know if I'll be able to hold my end up this weekend on the pizzamaking, but please forge ahead and I'll catch up.  I'm curious.  After about 5 days in the cooler, I'd say my dough had developed a lot of flavor.  You seem to find it bland except for the salt.  What can we chalk this up to?

1)  Different perceptions of flavor -- Maybe you really don't like salt and expect a whole lot of sour while I love salt and need less tang.  I doubt that's the whole story.  Don't you?

2)  Different flour.  You're using the All Trumps, I'm using the Harvest King.  Maybe AT needs more effort and time in the cooler to develop the same level of flavor?  Never used AT so I don't know.

3)  Different refrigeration temp?  My frig thermometer reads about 37-38 degrees (it's cheap).

4)  One more that just occurred to me.  You seem to stretch your pies much less thin than mine.  Mord dough per bite = more salt per bite!

In my experience, the development of the flavor goes hand in hand with the development of the uneven, airy crumb.  They both take frig time.  The pics look like you certainly achieved the crumb.  I'm surprised the flavor didn't come with.

As far as your question about oil, I think the evoo contributes the strongest (and in my opinion best) component of flavor.  Like I said, I don't use any in the dough formulation and only a bit on the outside for release purposes.  I've used vegetable oil before, but am happiest with the extra virgin.

Still salty at 12 grams?  Isn't that well within most people's recipe range for salt?  I have to look at the board for other formulas.  Would you say you're particularly sensitive to the taste of salt?

Anyway, just trying to get it all straight in my mind.  Are you going to try my suggestion as far as formulating the poolish?  Since I have limited experience using preferments, I don't know if my ideas make perfect sense.  I'll try to make a batch ASAP.  Keep me posted.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 01:38:57 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline MWTC

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 517
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2007, 02:26:28 PM »
Glutenboy,

I'll use 200 grams of flour and 200 grams of water. The yeast, I was thinking of using all of it in the poolish but with your idea maybe I should use 1/4 of the amount you use in the formulation. Just to keep it consistant. What do you think? I  usually use the whole amount that I use in the entire recipe.

I really don't think I am overly sensitive to salt, its just that it's what stands out and it doesn't make me say yum. That makes sense because you don't use anything but flour, water, yeast and salt.

Do you think I should do everything just as is, just create the poolish and start as if it wasn't there. Meaning, do the autolyse, and 1 hour counter rise in the given order and just ignore the 4 hour poolish period. That is what I am planning.

I'm sure the thickness plays a factor but not a whole lot.

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Glutenboy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 426
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Pizza & Sex -- Good? Great! Bad? Still okay.
    • My Pizza Gallery
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2007, 03:00:34 PM »
Personally, I wouldn't change the percentages until I see how it works out, but I defer to your experience with the preferment.
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Glutenboy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 426
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA
  • Pizza & Sex -- Good? Great! Bad? Still okay.
    • My Pizza Gallery
Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2007, 04:41:22 PM »
Oh, now I get what you meant!!!  ???  Yeah, a quarter of the yeast in the poolish and 3/4 in the final added H20.  Sounds like a great starting point to me.
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.