Author Topic: Dinner Tonight  (Read 21043 times)

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Offline Glutenboy

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Dinner Tonight
« on: January 23, 2007, 04:15:58 AM »
This is my baby about to be born.  Half sausage and mushroom, half peppers and onions, all delicious!  :chef:
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2007, 08:48:15 AM »
Glutenboy,

That's a great looking pie. Is it one of your NewYork-apolitan pies using Harvest King flour? Would you mind sharing the details of your latest accomplishment?

Peter

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2007, 10:57:45 AM »
Details,Details....Please!!!  :D

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2007, 07:36:17 PM »
I scaled out my dough recipe to percentages, but I don't have them with me so I'll post a better version later.  I used Harvest King flour.  Hydration was between 65 and 66 percent, salt was near 2 percent, yeast I can't recall at the moment, but certainly under 1%.  There was no oil.  Quick and gentle mix (setting 1) in the KA 600 followed by a 10 minute rest.  Then just a couple of minutes of rougher kneading with the KA (up to setting 3).  About 1 hour counter rise.  Scale into 315 g dough balls.  I adapted Varasano's method of storage.  Gladware containers with no oil, and into the fridge.  They expanded in the fridge before the cold had a chance to slow them down.  2 days later I degassed the dough, pulled the doughballs tight, oiled them EXTREMELY LIGHTLY with evoo as well as their containers, and put them back in the cooler for 2 more days.  Started using them at 4 days old.  The pie in the pic is 6-day dough.  Before using it I gave it about a 1-hour counter rise.  It handled beautifully.  Great extensibility and just enough elasticity.  It knew when to stop stretching itself.  The pie was about I'll say 16 inches.  The sauce was Cento whole tomatoes, scalded for a few seconds with fresh garlic, crushed red pepper and salt (just long enough to carmelize a tad and absorb the flavors of the garlic and pepper -- about 30 seconds).  No liquid from the tomato cans, just the flesh.  Then I sauceified (new glossary term) the tomatoes with an immersion blender.  That sits at least overnight.  It gets better!  Why?  I don't know!  Tomatoes go on the pie, freshly grated reggiano and pecorino romano, thinly sliced Belgioso cryo-pack fresh mozzarella, selected toppings, and finally a good drizzle of evoo before it goes into the oven.  No screen, just quarry tiles on the bottom rack with the oven cranked up to broil.  (My broiler's under the oven so it comes out to a very hot bake.)  A scattering of fresh torn Basil on the way out of the oven and heaven is mine.  I'll post a more precise dough recipe when I'm at home and can read it.  Experts, what say you?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 07:38:20 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline chiguy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2007, 10:01:51 PM »
 Gluten Boy,
 A nice looking pie, looks like perfect timing on the bake. You have really absorbed the information here. I was curious scaled to 315 grams that is about 11oz dough ball which seems extremely light for a 16in pizza.
 Is it possible the pizza was closer to 14-15inches? ? 

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2007, 11:09:22 PM »
Maybe, but my peel is 18" and the pizza looked about 1" from the border on each end.  I didn't measure when I had the chance, and the evidence is somewhere in my duodenum so we may never know.  I'll try to get an accurate measurement on the next pie.

-- Glutenboy
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline addicted

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2007, 01:04:05 AM »
Very fresh looking!
Well....okay,then.

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2007, 03:08:10 AM »
1)  Pete-zza, MWTC, Chiguy, and Addicted:  Thank you for the complimentary feedback.  Made my day.

2)  Chiguy:  I made another pie tonight with another 315 g dough ball, and it did indeed measure in at 16".  I do stretch it thin.  you can definitely see light through the windowpane.  But the weight was 315 and the diameter was 16.  Next time if I can manage it, I'll try to get a photo of the stretch.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 03:10:39 AM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2007, 10:59:25 AM »
Beautiful !!!  :D

Just a few points of clarification.

What was the water temperature used in preparing the dough?

What type of yeast did you use?

No sugar and no oil, why?

How long of a preheat on the oven, and what was the temp. in the oven when you started baking?

What type of Harvest King flour did you use?

How did the flavor of the dough turn out?

Again, Very nice.  ;D

MWTC  :chef:


Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2007, 12:35:04 PM »
MWTC --

Thanks for the interest.  Here's the poop:


1) What was the water temperature used in preparing the dough?

I didn't use a thermometer, but I'd say around 100 degrees.


2) What type of yeast did you use?

I'm ashamed to admit it on this board, but I did it old school with Fleischman's ADY.  I used a packet, but it was for a rather large amount of dough (1260 g).  It's kind of a high percentage for a long cooler rise, but I was in a hurry.  There are 7 g in a packet which put my yeast percentage under 1% but not as low as most would advocate.  Since it was ADY, I dissolved it in my H2O and let it sit for about 10 minutes before incorporating it with flour etc..  No sugar or anything.  It's never been necessary.

3) No sugar and no oil, why?
I'm a big fan of old-school New York pizza crust the way Evelyn Slomon and PFT do it.  I've made doughs over the years with and without oil and/or sugar and have come to my own personal conclusion that:
   A)  I never got any of the qualities I was searching for out of the sugar
   B)  Adding oil does produce a dough that handles more easily and rises more consistently, but as my confidence in making, gauging, and handling the dough has grown, I don't need the help of the oil anymore, and without it I get a much more rustic/artisan style crumb, texture, and chew, which is what I was after in the first place.


3)  How long of a preheat on the oven, and what was the temp. in the oven when you started baking?

At least an hour, and my oven thermometer (hung near the bottom from the rack) reads just under 600 when she really gets going.  I have an old gas oven with the broiler on the bottom, so I can set her on broil and let her heat til she can't no more.

4)  What type of Harvest King flour did you use?

The Harvest King in the Ralphs supermarket (I live in LA) from Gold Medal.  As far as I know, there's only one kind that's available retail, however I recently descovered that I am not infallible.

5)  How did the flavor of the dough turn out?

4 days, outstanding -- light, crisp, chewy and flavorful, 5 days wonderful, 6 days tangy-licious, 7 days even better.  I've never gone longer, but there's one 8-day-old dough ball left in the fridge that just might get tested tonight.  So far, I've never kept one long enough to know when it hits the wall.

Okay.  I'm going to stop this and work now so I don't get fired.

-- Glutenboy
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2007, 12:44:14 PM »
One more question. What type of camera did you use to get such a nice picture of you masterpiece? Any special technique used?

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2007, 12:54:02 PM »
MWTC --

Yet another shameful admission:  I used a Canon SD-600 set on full automatic.  I opened the oven door, pointed, and shot.  I'm not sure I could ever do it again.  But it sure is a nice picture, ain't it?
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2007, 01:55:22 PM »
Glutenboy,

When you have some time, I'd like to see the quantities of ingredients you used. Since you said that you were scaling ingredients, I assume the flour and water are weighed and that the other ingredients are stated in volumes. That combination would be fine if you have it. What I am most interested in is what you did that enabled you to get 6, possibly more, days out of your dough. If there was anything unusual about your combining of ingredients, in terms of sequencing or mixing of ingredients, sifting the flour, or whatever, I's be interested in reading about those steps.

Thanks.

Peter




Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2007, 02:36:40 PM »
Glutenboy,

I see that you use multiple rest/rise periods.

1. A ten minute rest after the gentle mix.
2. A one hour counter rise.
3. After two days in the fridge, you degass and pull the doughballs tight.
4. A one hour counter rise before baking.

Do you feel that these are all key ingredients to your success?

Also I see you oil after you roll tight the doughballs from the plastic containers. Is the oiling for a purpose other than just the ease of exit from the containers? And I see you use EVOO not OO any specific reason for this choice?

Thank-you for your willingness to share.

MWTC  :chef:



Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2007, 04:56:45 PM »
Peter and MWTC --

It's hard to know exactly which step is responsible for any given outcome, but there is a reason in my mind behind each one.

1)  The 10 minute rest lets the flour hydrate and minimizes oxidative damage (something I learned here).

2)  The counter rise lets the cell structure begin to develop and hopefully ultimately improves the crumb.

3)  I don't oil the dough balls after scaling them and before the first refrigeration because I know that I'm going to degas and reform them, and I don't want to incorporate oil into the dough.  The only reason I oil them at all is for ease of removal.

4)  Why do I use EVOO?  I suppose partially out of habit (it's what I've always used) and partially because I like the aroma and flavor.  I am aware that many here don't share that preference.

5)  Why degas after 2 days?  Because when I first put the dough in the fridge, it takes time to chill, and during that time it rises.  So what...?  See below:

Peter -- If I could name one step that makes the dough last longer (in my opinion), this is it.  Degassing prevents overrisen, blown dough.  When it goes back into the cooler after degassing and oiling, it's still cold and so only rises minimally over the remainder of its stay in the fridge.  In my mind, that buys extra time, though I know that eventually chemistry will finally kick in and kill it.  My mixing procedure itself is pretty pedestrian.  No sifting, no partial incorporation of ingredients.  As far as the numbers go, I have them all recorded at home and will have to post them later, but I definitely will.  By the way, it's all measured by weight.  I have a digital scale and I converted all of my volume measurements when I made my last batch.  I was surprised at just how high the hydration was, but that's what we're all shooting for, huh?

6)  The final counter rise allows the dough to regain its volume and extensibility so that I can stretch it nice and thin without any worry of tearing.  I've been getting a beautiful windopane out of it lately.

Anyway, more later.

-- GB



« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 05:00:52 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2007, 05:20:10 PM »
-GB,

Thats the type of answers that are so helpful.  :)  Thank-you again.

Another question comes to mind. Have you tried your dough with other flours like KASL, All Trumps and 00 type? And have you ever mixed flour types?

MWTC  :chef:

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2007, 02:17:37 AM »
MWTC --

I haven't been too adventurous with flours yet.  Used GM Better for Bread (discontinued and replaced by Harvest King), KA Bread Flour (didn't love it), and now Harvest King (like it a lot).  I'm going to get ahold of some Lancelot and/or All Trumps next.

Peter --

Here's my formula for four 315g dough balls.  Oddly enough, the weight of the final dough is a few grams shy of the combined weight of the ingredients.  Is this common?

760g flour (100%)
500g H2O (65.789%)
20g sea salt (normal granular) (2.632%)
7g ADY (.921%)

Please comment...

Now, some pics made with the 8-day dough...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 02:23:06 AM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.


Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2007, 02:21:19 AM »
And some more...
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline grovemonkey

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2007, 04:22:54 AM »
wow.. I am in awe of that pizza.

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2007, 09:59:52 AM »
Once again, Beautiful !!! You are a SuperStar.  :o  Nuf-Said  ;D

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 10:13:29 AM by MWTC »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2007, 05:23:38 PM »
Glutenboy,

Another great job. And thank you for posting the exact weights of ingredients.

In answer to your question, it is not unusual for the final dough weight to be less than the total of the listed weights of the ingredients. That phenomenon is one that some of us refer to as the "bowl residue" factor. It represents minor losses of the dough during preparation, for example, due to flour, water and dough sticking to bowls, implements, fingers, work surfaces, etc. All of the dough calculating tools that Boy Hits Car (Milke) and I have been working on will include a "bowl residue" feature that will allow users to specify a percent for the bowl residue. I have found that with my KichenAid dough making regimen about 2.5% covers such losses. In your case, if you got 1260 grams of dough (4 x 315 = 1260) and your total ingredient weight was 1287 grams, the loss was about 2.14%.  The way the ingredients would show up in the new and improved Lehmann dough calculating tool using a bowl residue compensation amount of 2.14% would be as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (65.7895%):
ADY (0.92105%):
Salt (2.63157%):
Total (169.34212%):
190 g  |  6.7 oz | 0.42 lbs
125 g  |  4.41 oz | 0.28 lbs
1.75 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
5 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.9 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
321.75 g | 11.35 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = N/A

The actual dough amount in your hands would most likely be closer to the 315 grams you  have been getting. If you wanted even more dough, you could adjust the numbers to get the greater amount of dough. With the new tool, you can use the desired dough ball weight as a starting point.

Based on the 315-gram dough balls you have been using for 16” pizzas, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.055261. That would represent a very very thin crust. I think one of the things that may be helping you get such good results is that you appear to be getting a very high stone temperature by virtue of its proximity to the broiler element at the bottom of your oven. Have you ever checked the temperature of the stone when you deposit the pizza on it? A high stone temperature, together with ample yeast and good amounts of trapped gasses and moisture, should give you good oven spring. Are you able to keep your broiler on for as long as you want or does it kick out at a certain temperature?

Your dough formulation looks quite normal in terms of hydration and yeast quantity, although it is high on salt. It is quite possible that the high salt level helped prolong the usable dough life by slowing down the rate of fermentation, which is one of the effects that high salt levels has on fermentation. I am not sure how much effect degassing the risen dough after a few days had in prolonging the usable dough life. In theory, degassing the dough expels gasses but it introduces additional oxygen and redistributes the yeast to new sources of food. As long as there is enough food to feed the yeast, and the dough is kept on the cool side, the dough will persist for some time. Obviously, whatever you have been doing it is working. I can always think of experiments to try but sometimes it is best not to tinker with success. But you have given me a few ideas to try on some of my own doughs.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 18, 2007, 04:45:22 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline chiguy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2007, 06:26:04 PM »
 hi Glutenboy,
 Two times a charm, the second pizza looks even better. I must say that i think that old oven of yours may be running a bit hotter than you think. That is a good amount of charring for a 550-600 degree temperature range.   
                                                                                     Chiguy

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2007, 09:58:12 PM »
Thanks for all the positive feedback.  After being on this board for I think over 2 years, I've developed great admiration for so many of you, and it is a true honor to read your kind words.  :D

Chiguy and Pete-zza --

You were both right.  I could have sworn I bought an 18" peel.  After hearing you both comment on the discrepancy between weight and size, I measured it to be sure, and it's 16", which would make my pies 14".  When I said I measured, I was actually eyeballing the next pie on the peel.  This would make my true thickness factor .07218 if I used that calculator correctly, which I believe is still pretty thin.  I had to set the record straight.  Oh, the egg on my face!!! :-[

Anyway, I just wanted to take this opportunity to express my appreciation.  This place rocks.  I thought I was the only pizza-obsessed nutcase in the world until I stumbled on it.  It's a true wealth of information and pizza-based fellowship.

Peter --

My broiler never cuts out.  That's why the the baking surface gets so hot.  I'm not sure I can measure deck temp with the hanging thermometer I have.

Chiguy --

My thermometer says it's not up past 600 in there.  Maybe it's wrong.  It's certainly cheap.  Could it be that the close proximity of the baking surface to the flames creates a large differential between the deck temp and the ambient temp?

-- GB
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline chiguy

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2007, 10:49:30 PM »
 Gluten Boy,
 Dont worry about the size and TF just glad we have the proper TF size .072. It is still on the thin side but the oven spring looks amazing on these pizzas.
 The fact that you are using broiler emement at full blast. For An hour?? I would say that you could possibly be up to 650F by that time.
 The reason i say this is that i have a Thermometer that reads to 650F. When i have ran the clean cycle it hits 650F before an hour is up..The broil element is also a real blast of heat.
 I don't know if you will be able determine for sure unless you had an IR thermometer.
Nevertheless you are doing something right cause these pies look great, nice crumb structure and light hand on the toppings.      Chiguy

Offline MWTC

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Re: Dinner Tonight
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2007, 11:30:50 AM »
Glutenboy,

Just made my first attempt last night using All Trumps flour. I did it exactly as you stated.
 
A question that came to mind was, when I was dividing the doughs after the 1 hour counter rise, how tight are you rolling the individual doughs? I could see the gas/air deflating in each dough, the more that I did it the smaller the individual doughs became. I did it to a reasonable size but I wanted your input on this point. Are you attempting to eliminate all or some of the increase?

Also please speak to the same point on the after 2 days in the fridge point.

Please advise.  :)

Thank-you  again.

MWTC  :chef:


 

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