Author Topic: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?  (Read 3758 times)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« on: January 28, 2007, 02:09:59 AM »
Over in this thread (click here) I describe some pies that were baked for a short time (55 seconds) at high temp (1025F). I had some dough leftover and the next day the temperature of the oven had dropped to about 550F, so I formed an irregular disk with the leftover dough and popped it in the oven for about 7 minutes until it started to brown. Then I brushed it with a little olive oil.

As you can see from the photo below, it looks nothing like the pies cooked at high temp. It was cracker-like and not at all tender. It got tougher as it cooled. OTOH, the flavor was sensational when dipped in a little more olive oil. The dough was crackery, but it was a real treat even if a bit tough.

This is just by way of saying that cooking in a cooler oven requires different ingredients and different methods.

Bill/SFNM

Here is a photo:

« Last Edit: January 28, 2007, 02:12:31 AM by Bill/SFNM »


Offline November

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2007, 03:32:39 AM »
Bill,

That's a nice little roulette wheel you have there.  It actually looks quite appetizing.  Knowing that it was made with Caputo flour though, tells me what I need to know to imagine the texture.  A flour with particle sizes that small, and baked at that temperature reminds me of thermoset plastic formation.  Rather than a "crumb" per se, you have more of a cross-linked polymer.  The man can make naan, as he is a fan, but this one turned up not "made to plan."

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Offline abatardi

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2007, 03:47:19 AM »
Awesome... I've been wanting to see this done for a while.  Obviously Bill makes some damn fine looking pies... so I always wanted to see this experiment done to show the difference with the same dough at a cooler bake.  Very interesting. 

What was the crumb like on this?  Would've liked to have seen some pics of the inside as well, but I can't be too greedy I guess.  :-)

- Aaron
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Offline scpizza

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2007, 04:28:56 AM »
That's a nice little roulette wheel you have there.  It actually looks quite appetizing.

Trust me, it's not.  I tried the same thing out of curiosity, cooking a spare pizza at a cooling down oven around 600.  It took 3-4 minutes, the crust was hard, yellow, and crackery in a bad way.  Not like the nice, light crackery NY style formulated doughs.

Offline November

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2007, 04:43:30 AM »
Like I said, it looks appetizing.  I imagine its texture is more like plastic.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2007, 04:45:27 AM by November »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2007, 08:16:19 AM »
Would've liked to have seen some pics of the inside as well, but I can't be too greedy I guess.  :-)

Your wish is my command. The crumb was moderately edible, especially when used as a delivery vehicle for some excellent nuovo olive oil. It was the crust that was hard and tough.

Bill/SFNM

Offline dikaryon

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2007, 11:37:15 AM »
Bill -

I have been experimenting with flours & recipes for use in my home oven, and have reached the same conclusion as you, after hoping that I could find a way to make high-temp dough recipes work in my low-temp oven without changing the ingredient list. I haven't totally given up this quest, but the addition of amendments goes a long way to improving home-oven recipes.

With my stone on the bottom of my gas oven, I can get deck temps of 660, which is admittedly slightly higher than what you mention here, but not high enough to make a difference, in my opinion. At this temp my pies cook in about 8 minutes.

My current recipe uses Caputo at 57% hydration, with 1.7% olive oil added after machine kneading is complete. This gives a pretty good pie with a crisp, brown crust, a fairly soft interior, and a great dough flavor and aroma. (To my mind, the most significant benefits of using Caputo is the flavor it lends to the dough itself.)

To me, the "toughness" factor is the hurdle I've been working to overcome in all of my doughs, Caputo or HG. This is manifest in two ways. One, tough crusts tend to pull up at their sides in the oven, and are unpleasantly chewy. Two, these features get even worse on cooling.

One of my benchmarks for a good pie, after how it tastes and behaves right out of the oven, is how it tastes and behaves the next day. To my mind, a really good pizza should be tender and tasty even when cold from the fridge or the counter the day after baking. My own pies rarely if ever get to this quality, but it is true of most of the pies I like from Pepe's or Modern. I live in Cambridge, and whenever we go to New Haven we bring many pies home to prolong the ecstasy as long as possible, since we only get down there a few times a year. We just leave the pies on the kitchen table, and the next day they are still delicious right out of the box, and reheat wonderfully.

My current thinking is that to keep crusts tender on the inside while cooked on the outside, high temps are ideal, since the exterior browns before the interior dries out. Dough conditioners can help to keep the interior moist and to promote browning, so that cooking times are minimized, but so far the difference between high temps and modified recipes is still present, and remains my holy grail.

Andrew



Offline Amateur Wino

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2007, 08:56:24 PM »
Bill, What kind of oven are you using that only loses 500 degrees approx overnight?
Thx

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2007, 09:59:20 PM »
Bill, What kind of oven are you using that only loses 500 degrees approx overnight?
Thx

Earthstone Model 90

Offline Amateur Wino

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2007, 10:57:53 PM »
Thanks, I just tried a Mugnaini for the first time and am wondering what kind of temp / time ranges to look for.


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2007, 11:08:11 PM »
I think residual heat retention has a lot to do with how it is installed - specifically how well it is insulated. As I've mentioned before, you can put your hand on the top outside surface of my oven and it will be barely warm to the touch.

Bill/SFNM

Offline abatardi

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2007, 04:18:05 AM »
Your wish is my command. The crumb was moderately edible, especially when used as a delivery vehicle for some excellent nuovo olive oil. It was the crust that was hard and tough.

Bill/SFNM

Nice!  Getting good with that close up lens.  ;-)
Make me a bicycle CLOWN!

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2007, 09:00:48 AM »
Nice!  Getting good with that close up lens.  ;-)
Actually that is terrible close-up. Out of focus and over exposed. I was too lazy to pull out the tripod.

Bill/SFNM

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2007, 02:43:05 PM »
As discussed above, Caputo 00 doesn't lend itself well to pizzas in cooler ovens, but here are photos of some baguettes made with leftover pizza dough. Excellent!

Bill/SFNM

Offline ponzu

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2007, 12:00:47 AM »
Wow,

Beautiful baguette.  how do you get such a high hydration dough to keep its shape (i.e. not flatten out under its own weight?)  Do you add much bench flour?  Also what temprature did you cook the baguette at and for approximately how long?

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2007, 01:12:17 AM »
Thank you, Ponzu. One of the ways structure was added to these loaves was that I folded them several times during fermentation. This is a technique that I have only recently been using, but the results with extremely wet doughs such as ciabatta have been great. A lot of bench flour is used, but excess is removed with a pastry brush during folding. Certainly some gets absorbed into the dough. The particular loaf above was baked at around 475F for around 20 minutes with steam applied during the first few minutes. As good as this bread was, baguettes made with Giustos bread flour and the French starter form sourdo.com are even better. I'll post those results in a new thread one of these days. Still tweaking.

Bill/SFNM

Offline ponzu

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2007, 01:29:20 PM »
Thanks Bill/SFNM,

The folding advice sounds very useful.  Pardon my ignorance but how do you apply steam?  Do you put some water on the floor of the oven?

Ponzu

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: What happens when a Caputo dough is used in 550F oven?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2007, 01:35:17 PM »

how do you apply steam? 


Plastic spray bottle filled with water.

Bill/SFNM


 

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