Author Topic: My first oo try  (Read 3178 times)

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Offline Marioama_1

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My first oo try
« on: August 30, 2007, 04:52:07 PM »
I'm in the process of making my first oo dough. I bought the flour but the recipe I used seems to be extremely wet:

By Weight
500gr Molino Caputo Tipo 00 flour**Caputo Pizza Flour ***
325gr water (65% hydration)
10gr salt
10gr dry active year

I actally started with 5lbs of flour and did the math on the rest of the ingredients. The dough is so wet that it is not rising like a normal dough but is growing out flat.

I made the dough last night and its been in my friends wine cellar for 12 hours. I reshaped the dough balls and I'm hoping to make pizza tonight.

For my next batch I was wondering what I should change to get a better dough. Also, the dough was so wet that I had to add an extra 2 cups of flour to get it to at least start to stick to the dough hook.

Any links/advice would be great. I will try to take some pictures tonight of the finished product.



Offline Marioama_1

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2007, 04:59:31 PM »
My oven is a wood fire oven:

earthstoneovens.com/gal22.html

Just in case that makes a difference with the recipe.

Thanks,

Mario

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2007, 05:20:27 PM »
Marioama_1,

Before commenting further, can you tell us where you got the recipe? A link to the recipe would be helpful if you have it. Also, do you know the temperature of your friend's wine cellar?

Peter

Offline Marioama_1

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2007, 05:30:35 PM »
I got the recipe from:

fornobravo.com/pizza/pizza_dough.html

The wine cellar is 53-57 F. most of the time.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2007, 08:00:48 PM »
Marioama_1,

I think the problem is excessive hydration, and possibly too much yeast. I am also somewhat suspicious of the dough formulation you used.

First, the dough formulation you used is stated to be an ďAuthentic Vera Pizza Napoletana Dough RecipeĒ. However, I have not seen anything put out by the VPN that calls for a hydration for a 00 flour that is anywhere near 65%. If you look at the translated VPN document, which is also at the Forno Bravo website, at http://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_spec.html, you will see recitations of hydration that are quite low (e.g., The characteristic"merceologiche" of the flour used for "Pizza Napoletana" allow it to absorb from 50 to 55% of its weight in water to reach the optimal "point of pasta.") If you also look at the flour features for the "Pizza Napoletana STG" standard, you will see an absorption/hydration range (Assorbimento) of 55-62%. The bags of flour that are shown on the recipe page you referenced are, to the best of my knowledge, the Caputo Extra Blu 00 flour, not the Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour. The Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour has a rated absorption of 57%. It also has a protein content of 11.5-12.5%, which is the range given in the STG standard. The Caputo Extra Blu 00 flour is a weaker flour than the Caputo Pizzeria flour and, while I donít know its rated absorption, I believe it to be less than that for the Caputo Pizzeria flour. That means that it will be extremely difficult to get the Extra Blu flour to absorb water at the 65% hydration level. It would take one with great skill and experience to get either flour to work at the 65% hydration level. To see the specs for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, and other flours as well, see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25328/topicseen.html#msg25328 (Reply 17). This page also recites the STG standard.

As examples of typical Neapolitan dough recipes, see the recipe recommended for home use by the U.S. VPN, at http://www.verapizzanapoletana.org/vpn/vpn_frames-index.htm (click on the Recipe link at the bottom of the page), the Woodstone recipe (using the Caputo Rosso 00 flour) at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm, an earlier VPN home recipe discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2002.0.html, and a Caputo dough recipe that was originally given to me by the importer of the Caputo flours, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,783.msg7219.html#msg7219 (Reply 10). All of these recipes call for hydration levels below 65%. After studying the recipe you posted more closely, it occurred to me that it may be a ďwinterĒ recipe. In Naples, it is common in winter to increase the hydration of the flour in order to speed up the fermentation to compensate for the cooler ambient room temperature. This is usually done by reducing the amount of flour in relation to the water, which is kept constant (in the U.S., we do the reverse). Under these circumstances, the hydration can get above 65%. But, in the summer, where the ambient room temperature is higher, the process is usually reversed and the amount of flour in relation to the weight of water is reduced to slow down the fermentation.

In your case, the wine unit temperature range you used, even though operating below the optimum ambient temperature range for fermentation (18-20 degrees C, or 64.4-68 degrees F), should have slowed down the rate of fermentation. However, with 10 grams of dry active yeast (the recipe you used is silent as to whether the yeast is ADY or IDY), the usage of yeast is 2% (by weight of flour). That is a high quantity of yeast and would have the effect of speeding up the rate of fermentation. Along with the high hydration and 12 hours of fermentation, that could have been responsible for the condition of the dough you described.

I donít mean to suggest that it is impossible to achieve 65% hydration with the Caputo 00 flours. But it will take a lot of skill, especially if the Caputo Extra Blue flour is used rather than the stronger Caputo Pizzeria flour, and especially for novice pizza makers using the 00 flours. 

So, I think the bottom line in your case is that you should reduce the hydration, whichever Caputo 00 flour you are using. And I would give some thought to reducing the amount of yeast.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 11:32:14 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaPolice

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2007, 09:05:05 PM »
I'll say it again.  Pete, you are amazing.

Mario!  How does it perform?  Does it puff right up when it hits the deck? 
When I first started, I had horrible pizza.  My oven temp. was too low and I used too many toppings. 
Then I swung too far on the pendulum and over baked the poor pizza into a lifeless cracker with sauce.
Search out posts from Bill/SFNM.  He's pretty open about his methods.
You'll get it!  Flour is cheap.  Keep experimenting.  Write down what was good or bad for next time.  Believe me, you can't remember everything.
Looking forward to your pictures.

Offline DaveK

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2007, 11:19:17 PM »
Pete --

Thanks for the excellent info. All the recipes you link to call for fresh or brewer's yeast. I have a nice preferment that I'd like to use. Is there a way to convert the quantity of yeast specified to a quantity of preferment, or should I use both?

Dave

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2007, 09:33:43 AM »
DaveK,

Thatís a great question. Once in a blue moon, I will find an article on the Internet that tries to address the problem of converting commercial yeast in a dough recipe to a natural starter or preferment. An example of such an article, which I bookmarked in case someone raised the question again, is this one: http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howdoiconvertyeastbreadrec.html. Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to your question, although the referenced article does provide some rough guidelines that one might use to convert a dough recipe using commercial yeast to one using a natural starter or preferment.

As a practical matter, to address the conversion matter one has to first determine how much yeast is used in the original recipe and then try to come up with a percent of starter or preferment to use in place of the yeast called for in the original recipe. If the formula yeast is high, then one might use a preferment at a rate of 15% or more (as a percent of the formula flour). If the amount of formula yeast is exceedingly high, then the preferment percent might be as high as 40% or more (of the weight of formula flour). At those rates, the preferments will act as leavening agents but they will also confer other features and attributes to the dough and finished crust. If the formula yeast is low, then one might use a preferment at a much lower rate. For example, in Naples, the preferment, or starter, is measured in relation to the weight of the formula water, not the weight of flour as is done in the U.S. A typical range might be 1-5% of the formula water. In that case, the starter will be used almost exclusively for leavening purposes. Notably, there are only a few places (two?) in Naples that use natural preferments and, to the best of the collective knowledge of our members, only two in the entire U.S. That is why most of the Neapolitan dough recipes you will see call for commercial yeast (usually fresh yeast), including the recipes for which I provided links in my last post.

If I were to attempt to convert one of the recipes I referenced in my last post, or even the one used by Marioama_1, to use a preferment or starter in lieu of commercial yeast, the way I would proceed would be as follows. First, I would try to convert the recipe to bakerís percents. For reasons to become more readily apparent below, I would calculate the percents of all of the ingredients with respect to the weight of the formula flour, not the weight of water as is typically done in Naples. The key numbers I want to know are the percent of water (formula hydration), which establishes the total hydration of the dough, and the percent of yeast (commercial). Next, I would try to determine the weight of an individual dough ball, if that number is not given anywhere. Fortunately for us, all of the recipes I referenced can be converted to bakerís percents and there is sufficient information to determine a typical dough ball weight (in most cases, the dough ball weight is specified). It is important to note that the weight of a dough ball in all of the referenced recipes will correspond to a particular pizza size and crust thickness to be used with a very high-temperature oven, such as a very high-temperature wood-fired oven. From my experience, for a standard unmodified home oven, it will usually be best to use a smaller pizza size for the same dough ball weight in one of the referenced recipes, or else increase the dough ball weight to allow one to make the size of pizza mentioned in the recipe. This is necessary since a pizza baked in a home oven will not bake the same as in a very high-temperature wood-fired oven.

With the above information, I would then use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. I would use the dough ball weight option, and enter all of the bakerís percents but for the bakerís percent for the formula yeast. We want to know what the yeast bakerís percent is but only to know if it is a small number or a big number. If it is a big number, then we want to use a large percent for the preferment; if it is a small number, we want to use a small percent for the preferment. This is not a precise process, and there is no table that I am aware of that converts an amount of commercial yeast to a corresponding amount of starter or preferment. To do this, one would also have to specify fermentation times and temperatures, of which there are myriad combinations.

So, for purposes of using the preferment dough calculating tool, we enter a number for the quantity of preferment that bears a relationship to the amount of the commercial yeast called for in the original recipe. Although the tool is based on using bakerís percents in relation to the amount of flour, the preferment itself can be expressed as a percent of the weight of flour, water or total dough weight, whichever number may be given or calculated from the recipe used. Using the preferment quantity number, plus the percent of water used in the preferment itself, the preferment dough calculating tool will provide the ingredient quantities needed to approximate the original dough formulation. However, even if we are successful to this point in coming up with a reliable set of numbers, that doesnít necessarily mean that we can use the same fermentation times called for in the original recipe. Natural starters and preferments tend to work much more slowly than commercial yeast. So, unless one tries to speed up the process by using a lot more starter or preferment, or take other steps that will speed up the fermentation process, such as using a higher hydration or using warmer water or a higher fermentation temperature, it will usually take longer for the starter or preferment to do its job. Adding some commercial yeast to the formulation, as you postulated in your post, will also have the effect of speeding up the fermentation process, but that will also change the formulation and affect fermentation times. However, if that is something you want to do, the preferment dough calculating tool gives users that option.

I realize that the above all sounds complicated and a lot of work, but if one follows the steps described it should be possible to come up with a workable formulation using a natural starter or preferment in place of commercial yeast. As with any exercise of this nature, it will usually require some experimentation and tweaking of recipes. There are just too many variables when dealing with natural starters. If there is a particular recipe that you would like to play around with, I may be able to give you some guidance as to how you might modify the recipe to use your particular starter. It might help to know what kind starter you are using (e.g., a homemade one or a purchased one) and, if you know, what its percent of water is (or else indicate whether the starter is batter-like or on the stiff side). Please also indicate which specific brand and type of 00 flour you would plan to use, and the type of oven you will be using.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 10:09:42 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline DaveK

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2007, 10:31:08 AM »
Peter --

Thanks a lot for your very thorough reply. My wood-fired oven is currently under construction, so that's where these pies will be baked. I'll either be using all Caputo Pizzeria 00 or half Caputo and half KA Bread. I'm also planning on a long, cold rise (3-5 days). My cultures are the famous Ischia and Camaldoli from sourdo.com, and they are the consistency of thick pancake batter.

All that being said, will I get that much more flavor and texture by using a preferment in a Neapolitan pizza, or is the more traditional yeast-only method a better way to go?

Dave

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2007, 11:41:14 AM »

All that being said, will I get that much more flavor and texture by using a preferment in a Neapolitan pizza, or is the more traditional yeast-only method a better way to go?


I think the starters are worth the effort. A big part of the fun is playing around with the amounts, times, temps, etc. to find the best ways to develop the different flavors that can't be achieved with commercial yeast.

Bill/SFNM


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2007, 12:05:53 PM »
All that being said, will I get that much more flavor and texture by using a preferment in a Neapolitan pizza, or is the more traditional yeast-only method a better way to go?


Dave,

In my opinion, in just about all cases, and for just about all pizza styles, you will get better crust flavor and a more complex crumb structure using a natural preferment rather than commercial yeast. And, as between a room temperature fermentation and a cold fermentation of a 00 Neapolitan style dough using a natural starter/preferment, I think the room-temperature fermentation produces better results. Some of the distinctions are discussed in these two posts:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2191.msg19324.html#msg19324 (Reply 2) and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13410/topicseen.html#msg13410 (Reply). There may be some instance where you might be able to get a cold fermented 00 dough using a natural starter/preferment to perform much like a room temperature fermented version, but you may need a long period of cold fermentation and a dough formulation and/or dough making procedures specially adapted to the long period of cold fermentation. This is purely a speculation on my part since I have not tried to create a cold fermented 00 dough using a natural starter/preferment that will equal or at least approximate a room-temperature version. If I were to base a pizza business on using a cold fermented 00 dough, or if I had a high-temperature wood-fired oven, I might be more motivated to try to find a 00 dough formulation and processing protocol that will produce optimum results in these cases.

Peter

Offline DaveK

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2007, 12:17:10 PM »
Thanks, Peter. How long is it safe to leave dough out at room temperature?

Dave

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2007, 01:25:47 PM »
How long is it safe to leave dough out at room temperature?


Dave,

The answer depends on several factors, including the type/brand of 00 flour used, the type and amount of leavening agent (yeast or starter/preferment) used, the hydration percent, the finished dough temperature (which is related to the water temperature, room temperature, flour temperature and heat contributed to the dough by the mixer used), and the ambient room temperature at which the dough is to be fermented. In practice, you would select a 00 flour that fits the desired time period of fermentation and build the dough formulation around that. The flour spec that is commonly used for this purpose when commercial yeast (usually fresh yeast) is used is the ďenergy deformation factorĒ W. As pointed out in the table set forth in this post, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545.html#msg42545 (Reply 15), the W factor delineates the potential life span of a room temperature fermented dough based on using commercial yeast.

For the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, the W value is 240-260, which suggests a fermentation period of 6-9 hours. For the Caputo Extra Blu 00 flour, and for the Bel Aria brand of 00 flour, the W values would be lower (I donít have the actual values), suggesting shorter fermentation periods for the Extra Blu and Bel Aria flours. (That is one of the reasons why I wondered whether the combination of high hydration, high yeast use and 12 hours of fermentation that Marioama_1 used may have produced the results he achieved, although he may have saved the day by adding more flour.) For the Caputo Red-00R rinforzato rosso 00 flour, which is the strongest Caputo 00 flour (it has a protein content of 12-13%), the W value is 270-300, which suggests a fermentation period of 12-15 hours. I hasten to add that the W values indicated in the table in the abovereferenced thread are approximations and most likely keyed to a particular ambient room temperature. In practice, one would make adjustments to the dough formulation and/or fermentation times to get the desired results. Using a natural starter/preferment will also alter the usable life span of a room temperature dough because of its generally reduced level of activity compared with commercial yeast. I have used Caputo 00 doughs with small amounts (around 5% by weight of water) of natural starters/preferments, and fermented at room temperature, and achieved fermentation times of over 30 hours. To better control the process, today I would use my MR-138 ThermoKool unit.

Peter

Offline Marioama_1

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Re: My first oo try
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2007, 04:17:26 PM »
Well here we go....

Last night we decided to fire up my friends oven (instead of mine) since he had the dough in his wine cellar. (Its nice to have that option)

The dough was almost impossible to work with. It was border line cake batter and not a dough consistency. To give you an idea I would say between slime and pizza dough.

We were able to spread (not roll) out somewhat round shapes and went to town on the pizza. To make a few pizza's were no big deal but if I was having one of my typical pizza parties (75-100 pizzas) I would have been screwed.

The crust was by far the BEST crust myself or my friend have made/eaten.  Also, the pizza's were easy to cook since the dough seemed resistant to burning. We usually try to get the sauce as close to the edge as possible but with this dough we left about a 1-2" border. The border puffed up just like the pizza's we have had in Italy, even my young kids could tell the difference.

I took a huge amount of pictures so I'm going to post them on photobucket. I will post the link on Monday so you can see the results with descriptions.

Heres what I learned about the recipe I used:

Flour.... Excellent... By the way its the Pizzeria flour.
Yeast.... good.
Salt...... needs a little more
Water.... needs a lot less

For my next batch I'm going to keep everything the same but reduce the water. I plan to add enough water to make a sticky dough... Basically eyeball it and then figure out what % of water I used. I could instantly tell after I poured the water into this batch that it was a mistake. I'm going with my en-stinks the next time around and I have a feeling it will put me in a reasonable hydration range.

Thanks for the info Peter, I appreciate it.

Mario
« Last Edit: August 31, 2007, 04:19:29 PM by Marioama_1 »