Author Topic: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?  (Read 4135 times)

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Offline strailey

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Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« on: February 02, 2007, 06:53:34 PM »
While I've been dabbled at making pizza on and off for the last 15 or so years, recently this site has really helped me to improve my NY style pizza tremendously.  I thought I'd take a whack at a Chicago-style spinach stuffed pizza this weekend.  I haven't attempted one in like a dozen years and then it was with some awful dough recipe I got out of some cookbook.  I guess I'll start with the DKM recipe as a starting point.

My first question is regarding the amount of dough required for the cap?  It looks like the DKM recipe is for a 15" single crust pizza.  The deep dish pan I have is about 12.5" in diameter, I assume that I'm going to need to increase the recipe some for the second crust?  Anybody have any thoughts on how much?  I will be preparing it by weight, not volume.  Boy it will be nice when the often referenced upcoming Chicago-style dough calculator finally arrives.

Second question, regarding the filling.  I'm planning on wilting some fresh spinach in a little olive oil with some sauteed garlic.  Then, I'll add some browned sausage and possibly some sauteed mushrooms.  Having never really had any truly authentic Chicago pizza (just from one of the Uno chains, somewhere on the East Coast), I was wondering, do the real Chicago places add any sort of cheese in with the stuffing, or does it typically just go on top under the tomatoes?

Third question, regarding the cooking procedure.  I assume that I'll have to cook the stuffed pizza, minus the top cheese and tomatoes for some period of time?  Anyone have any suggestions regarding how long to cook the pizza before putting on the cheese and 6 in 1 tomatoes (amazingly my local grocery store carries them)?

Any thoughts, tips, or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2007, 07:07:44 PM »
strailey,

Can you tell me which DKM recipe you are referring to?

Peter

Offline doctor_pepperoni

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2007, 07:20:41 PM »
For the first question, I'd treat the cap as I would a straight Lehmann dough with a diameter of either 12" or 13" (I've noticed that the calculator won't allow fractional diameters) and then add those proportions to the "base" dough weights.

The Lehmann calculator will adequately accomodate some strange pizza skin shapes if you are willing to treat it as a "surface area" calculator, and applying some basic geometry to the final skin shape.

I hope you get some response on the other two questions.

As for the 6 in 1, where are you located that your local supermarket carries them?  I had to pick some up while on a business trip to Peoria, when I stopped by a local GFS Marketplace to get them and some other items.  If you ever want to get a laugh out of the TSA airport screeners, try passing a 15 lb box of Fontanini sausage and a 6 lb loaf of provolone cheese through the carry-on X-ray scanner.  I got it through, but not until after some 'splaning.  :-D

Regards, Ed.

Offline strailey

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2007, 07:25:29 PM »
Peter,

The one straight off the recipe's page: dkm_chicago.php.  Thanks.

Offline strailey

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2007, 07:41:31 PM »
doctor_pepperoni,

I don't know where your located, chances are this won't help you much.  For any Central Texas folks, the larger of the two HEB grocery stores in San Marcos, TX has 28oz Escalon 6 in 1 all purpose ground tomatoes on the shelf.  However, this is the only HEB that I've found in the area that seems to stock them.  Even the more upscale HEB Central Markets in Austin and San Antonio don't carry them (great place for getting cheeses and other pizza ingredients, minus HG flour). Local Whole Foods and Sun Harvest stores also do not seem to carry 6 in 1.  Now, if I could only find a Texas source for HG flour...

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2007, 07:56:59 PM »
strailey,

I think I can help you with that dough formulation because it comes with baker's percents and I have the thickness factor for that recipe. However, I will need to know whether your 12.5" pan is straight-sided, its depth (as measured from the inside bottom of the pan), and how far up the sides of the pan you plan to push the dough. If it turns out that you change your mind on the depth of the dough in the pan because of your final fillings, then you will have to make a few adjustments in the thickness of the dough.

Although the new deep-dish calculating tool can accommodate stuffed pizza applications, I have never used it before for that purpose. However, I have read that the separate dough layer requires about another 20-30 percent dough. If it's OK with you, I will use 30%. Often the separate dough layer is thinner than the rest of the dough in the pan, so I think you should come pretty close. Please also let me know if you would like the tool to increase the ingredients by a few percent to compensate for minor losses in the bowl. Usually a couple percent will do.

Hopefully, you can serve as a guinea pig on the separate layer of dough and tell us if 30% is either too high, too low, or just right.

Peter

Offline doctor_pepperoni

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2007, 08:28:56 PM »
strailey,

I'm located on the east coast in Delaware, between Philadelphia and Baltimore.  No 6 in 1 to be found here, but I have found Sclafani crushed tomatoes at the bargain price of $1.00 per 28 oz can at the local supermarkets.  For that price I can live with the Sclafani product, but I digress....

Peter's suggestion to add 30% is a whole lot easier than mine.  I've had some fun "force feeding" the Lehmann calculator with the DKM parameters and surface area corrections to get odd skin shapes, but by the time you actually "dial in" a recipe to your satisfaction you go through a couple of iterations for adjustment anyway.

Have fun, Ed.

Offline strailey

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2007, 08:41:56 PM »
Peter,

The pan I have is 1-1/2" deep with straight sides.  I guess my initial thoughts were that I'd probably push the dough up about 1" on the sides, however I'm no expert feel free to adjust if you need to.  For my NY doughs, I don't really lose much in the bowl, if this behaves similarly, you probably don't need to add an allowance.  Thanks for your assistance.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2007, 09:01:50 PM »
strailey,

Based on your pan dimensions you provided (12.5" diameter, 1 1/2" deep, straight-sided), and assuming that the dough will go 1 1/4" up the sides of the pan, and 33% for the separate dough skin, the deep-dish calculating tool provides the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (61.1%):
ADY (1.4%):
Salt (1.4%):
Canola Oil (19.4%):
Sugar (2.1%):
Cornmeal (19.4%):
Total (204.8%):
Single Inner Ball:
Single Outer Ball:
396.35 g  |  13.98 oz | 0.87 lbs
242.17 g  |  8.54 oz | 0.53 lbs
5.55 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.47 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
5.55 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
76.89 g | 2.71 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.64 tbsp | 0.35 cups
8.32 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.09 tsp | 0.7 tbsp
76.89 g | 2.71 oz | 0.17 lbs | 7.74 tbsp | 0.48 cups
811.73 g | 28.63 oz | 1.79 lbs | TF = 0.1329
610.33 g | 21.53 oz | 1.35 lbs
201.41 g | 7.1 oz | 0.44 lbs

You may end up with some extra dough, especially if you decide to go up the sides of the pan by 1" rather than 1 1/4". You might note the extent of any excess for future reference. For example, if you note the starting dough weight and subtract the excess, if any, that will give you a more accurate measure of what amount of dough you will need the next time. The new tool can also work off of dough weights to provide ingredient quantities.

Good luck.

Peter

« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 09:37:53 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline strailey

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2007, 11:34:49 PM »
Peter,

Sorry, I should have specified that I'd be using IDY instead of ADY.  Is the correct conversion factor 0.75?  If so that'd be 4.1625g or 4 grams since my scale will only display whole grams.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2007, 05:23:36 AM »
strailey,

With your scale it will be 4 grams. You will also note that I upped the amount of dough for the separate skin to 33%, just to be on the safe side.

BTW, you might find this yeast conversion table useful: http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 01:51:08 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Randy

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2007, 12:15:41 PM »
I think a lot of us are looking over your shoulder on this one to see how it turns out.  Post pictures if you can.

Offline strailey

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2007, 06:14:19 PM »
OK, here are the results and some pics.  The calculated amount of dough seemed to work out well without any leftover dough (retarded in the fridge for about 20 hrs followed by 4 hrs counter rise.  Finished weight was 799g.  Dough was pressed up about 1-1/4" on the sides of the pan).  This was my first experience with 6 in 1, they do have a nice flavor.  For the sauce, I strained out some of the water and puree on 6 in 1's and seasoned with basil, sea salt and black pepper, over sliced mozzarella and sliced provolone cheese.  The filling was 2 bunches of washed fresh spinach leaves (probably should have used 3 bunches) wilted in a little olive oil with pressed garlic.  Combined reduced spinach with browned sweet Italian sausage.  I par baked the pizza with the top crust for about 6 minutes at 500 deg. on top of a stone on the bottom oven shelf.  At this point I removed the pizza from the oven and added the cheese and sauce.  Baked for about another 15 minutes at 500 deg.

Impressions, over all the pie was definitely eatable, but not first-class.  The sauce turned out very well, and I was very pleased with the stuffing flavor.  The main downfall of the pie, was the dough, it was still a little on the bready side flavor-wise.  And despite using what I felt was a decent amount of corn oil in the pan, the bottom came out well browned, but not really fried.  Still, for a first attempt, I'm happy with the results.  Any suggestions for tweaking the dough would be welcome.  Thanks.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2007, 07:24:49 PM »
strailey,

To the best of my knowledge, you are the first one to convert DKM's dough recipe to a stuffed deep-dish format and report on the results. For comparison purposes, you might want to try loowaters' exemplary dough recipe as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4070.0.html. I don't believe that loo has made a stuffed deep-dish version of his recipe, but I do not see any reason why it shouldn't work as a stuffed deep-dish. I'd be happy to help you with the numbers if you'd like, especially since loo has indicated the baker's percents and thickness factor for his recipe.

Peter

« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 03:02:56 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline strailey

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2007, 08:13:11 PM »
Peter,

I'm game.  Whenever you get a chance, please convert his recipe for the 12.5" diameter 1-1/4" high crust.  Also, I just picked up a 10" diameter 2" high AMC pan (of course it's not coated, just bare alum., hopefully I can get it seasoned OK and it'll brown the crust well.)  from the local restaurant supply place on Sat.  If it's not too much trouble, please give me the numbers for that pan as well.  I think the 33% cap allowance worked pretty well.  Thanks.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2007, 10:16:59 AM »
strailey,

I double checked loowaters’ dough formulation at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4070.msg33959.html#msg33959, and I believe I have all the information I will need.

I will assume that with the 12.5” diameter pan you will want to stick with the dough running up the sides of the pan by 1 ”, as you instructed. But with your new 10” diameter 2” deep pan, will you want to use the same dough depth, or would you like to use 1 ” as does loowaters for his 2” deep pan? I assume that you will want to use IDY instead of ADY. Is that correct? Finally, I noticed that your finished dough weighed about 1.5 % less than the amount calculated by the tool. Would you like me to increase the dough weight by that percent? It may not be exact because the two recipes are different but the final weight might be closer to the calculated weight. I will use the 33% figure in both cases, but if you would prefer another number that is no problem for me or the tool.

Peter
Edit: Corrected pan size to 12.5"
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 11:22:02 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline strailey

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2007, 11:13:52 AM »
Peter,

All that sound good.  Yes, I'm using IDY. 1-1/2" sounds good for the new pan. And sure, go ahead and bump things up by 1.5%.  Thanks, I really appreciate all your help.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2007, 11:48:50 AM »
strailey,

The two requested dough formulations are set forth below. Please note that the dough formulations do not include any salt, which is characteritic of the Malnati’s style deep-dish crust. If you choose to use salt as a matter of personal preference, you can just add it as you wish without materially disrupting the formulations. There shouldn’t be a need to re-do the formulations but I can if you would like me to do that.

Flour (100%):
Water (45%):
IDY (0.5625%):
Olive Oil (8%):
Corn Oil (15%):
Total (168.5625%):
Single Inner Ball:
Single Outer Ball:
463.41 g  |  16.35 oz | 1.02 lbs
208.53 g  |  7.36 oz | 0.46 lbs
2.61 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
37.07 g | 1.31 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.24 tsp | 2.75 tbsp
69.51 g | 2.45 oz | 0.15 lbs | 5.15 tbsp | 0.32 cups
781.13 g | 27.55 oz | 1.72 lbs | TF = 0.12789
587.32 g | 20.72 oz | 1.29 lbs
193.82 g | 6.84 oz | 0.43 lbs
(Assumes 12.5” pan, straight-sided, dough depth of 1 ”, 33% for separate skin, 1.5% bowl residue adjustment, and thickness factor of 0.126--0.12789 after bowl residue adjustment)

Flour (100%):
Water (45%):
IDY (0.5625%):
Olive Oil (8%):
Corn Oil (15%):
Total (168.5625%):
Single Inner Ball:
Single Outer Ball:
337.02 g  |  11.89 oz | 0.74 lbs
151.66 g  |  5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs
1.9 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
26.96 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.99 tsp | 2 tbsp
50.55 g | 1.78 oz | 0.11 lbs | 11.23 tsp | 3.74 tbsp
568.1 g | 20.04 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = 0.12789
427.14 g | 15.07 oz | 0.94 lbs
140.96 g | 4.97 oz | 0.31 lbs
(Assumes 10” pan, straight-sided, dough depth of 1 ”, 33% for separate skin, 1.5% bowl residue adjustment, and thickness factor of 0.126--0.12789 after bowl residue adjustment)

Good luck and please keep us posted on your results.

Peter

Offline loowaters

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2007, 04:57:19 PM »


Olive Oil (8%):
Corn Oil (15%):

Guys, I made an adjustment here for the better by cutting the olive oil to 4% and upping the corn oil to 19%.  So adjust Peter's numbers by cutting that OO number in half (to 18.535g and 13.48g respectively in the above weights) and adding that amount to the corn oil (to 88.045g and 64.03 respectively).  You will appreciate the enhanced flavor from making this adjustment.

BTW, that stuffed looks fantastic.  It's a little thick down in the corner but still may be the best looking stuffed I've seen on the site.  Nice work!

« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 04:59:18 PM by loowaters »
Using pizza to expand my waistline since 1969!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2007, 05:49:06 PM »
Thanks, loo.

For error minimization purposes:

Flour (100%):
Water (45%):
IDY (0.5625%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Corn Oil (19%):
Total (168.5625%):
Single Inner Ball:
Single Outer Ball:
463.41 g  |  16.35 oz | 1.02 lbs
208.53 g  |  7.36 oz | 0.46 lbs
2.61 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
18.54 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.12 tsp | 1.37 tbsp
88.05 g | 3.11 oz | 0.19 lbs | 6.52 tbsp | 0.41 cups
781.13 g | 27.55 oz | 1.72 lbs | TF = 0.12789
587.32 g | 20.72 oz | 1.29 lbs
193.82 g | 6.84 oz | 0.43 lbs
(Assumes 12.5” pan, straight-sided, dough depth of 1 ”, 33% for separate skin, 1.5% bowl residue adjustment, and thickness factor of 0.1260.12789 after bowl residue adjustment)

Flour (100%):
Water (45%):
IDY (0.5625%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Corn Oil (19%):
Total (168.5625%):
Single Inner Ball:
Single Outer Ball:
337.02 g  |  11.89 oz | 0.74 lbs
151.66 g  |  5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs
1.9 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
13.48 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
64.03 g | 2.26 oz | 0.14 lbs | 4.74 tbsp | 0.3 cups
568.1 g | 20.04 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = 0.12789
427.14 g | 15.07 oz | 0.94 lbs
140.96 g | 4.97 oz | 0.31 lbs
(Assumes 10” pan, straight-sided, dough depth of 1 ”, 33% for separate skin, 1.5% bowl residue adjustment, and thickness factor of 0.126—0.12789 after bowl residue adjustment)

Peter
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 08:31:11 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Boy Hits Car

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2007, 05:55:10 PM »
edit: ... Peter beat me to it.  I posted the adjusted numbers using the deep dish tool.  Anyway, your stuffed pizzas look great.  Keep us posted.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 05:57:58 PM by Boy Hits Car »

Offline retemple

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Re: Attempt at a Chicago-style stuffed pizza, some questions?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2007, 04:28:30 PM »
With the help of this site, I made my first stuffed pie last Friday (2/2).  I grew up in Chicago and wanted to make a pizza as close as possible to those that I used to eat at Guy's on North Ave.

I had realistic/low expectations for my first attempt and was completely blown away by how close it was to an authentic stuffed pizza.

I'll try to post a pic (I don't have one here) and more detailed info if requested.  I used a 10" dark anodized springform pan.  I used Buzz's crust recipe and handled it minimally (less than two minutes of kneading).  The dough rose at room temp for 9 hours.  I rolled the dough to about 1/8" thick and placed it over/in the springform that had been sprayed with regular Pam.  The dough wouldn't stay in the corners so I helped it with 8 oz of part skim (Kroger brand) shredded mozz cheese.  I bought fresh bulk italian sausage from the local store and seared it in good size chunks.  I cooked it probably 80%.  I put 8-oz sausge over the cheese along with some spinach that I blanched (just water).  I put another 4-6 oz of cheese on next.  I kinda smashed the filling in to hold the bottom crust down.

I used a rolling pin on the springform to trim the crust.  Next I rolled the top crust (less than 1/8" thick) and trimmed it to about 11.5" diameter with a plate.  I put this on top of the pie.  The top crust butted up against the bottom crust.  I then folded and pinched the bottom crust over the top crust.  I made several cuts in the top crust to keep it from bubbling.  For the sauce I used some Hunts organic crushed tomatoes that I seasoned with some Thai hot sauce and  little salt.  I put about 1.5-2 cups of sauce on the pizza and sprinkled shredded parmesan on top of the pie.  I cooked it for 37 minutes at 450 degrees in the center of the oven.  The internal temp of 150 degrees when I pulled it.  I think it was cooked perfectly (crust was just right).

It was some of the best pizza I've ever had.  It wasn't exactly the same as Guy's though.  My parents each had a piece (leftover) and they agreed that it was really close.  The sauce wasn't quite right.  The Guy's sauce was seasoned differently (more of a tomato essence and much darker in color).  I should have used grated, not shredded parmesan.  Other than sauce, the flavor/texture was dead on.  My crust wasn't quite as thin and more flaky than Guy's.  I probably need to practice the dough manipulation/assembly.

Overall, I surprised myself.  I'm not much of a baker but I'm anal and obsessed with pizza.  Since Friday I've had pizza on the brain constantly.  Kinda scary.  I've been looking for a reason to make another (I have to limit how many of these I make so it doesn't impact my other passion).  My brother is coming over in two weeks and I'll make one for him.  He's very critical and should offer good feedback.  How I make the improvements is another question.



 

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