Threw out all the rules

[rdb]

  Today, just for an experiment, I threw out all the rules I have learned in these forums. I did away with grams, and percentages, worrying about methods, and just winged it.

  For the record, I have followed most of the recipes here to the letter, or as best I could with my conventional oven, and digital scale, and for the most part been very happy with the results.

  I am bordering on nuts with my new "Italian Starters. Where others had frustration  getting them active from the packages, I have considered it a challenge, and thoroughly interesting. Between the no results, and the washings, and the feedings, all in all, it was fun.
  At this point, I have two 1qt jars of each, Ischia, and Camoldoli, sitting on my counter. I have both refrigerated them, and left them on the counter, for extended periods of time.  This is how I keep them now:
 If I do not intend to bake within a few days, I feed the starters about 1/4 cup of flour, and a dash of water per day, shake, and forget. What happens is a semi starved leavening...bubbling, but not too much, with a slightly sour smell too them. When ready to bake, the day before, I feed 1 cup flour, and 3/4 cup water, shake, and the next day, I have extreme foaming, and a yeasty, bread type smell.

  Now last night, I mixed a bottle of spring water, with 1/4 cup of my Ischia, and left overnight.  In the morning, I had a flat bowl of poolish, with small bubbles.  The Poolish had risen to the top of the bowl overnight, and receded.
  I mixed in 1 cup flour, and with my KA mixer and  paddle on 1, mixed for 1 minute or so, then added 1 cup flour slowly...mixed for another minute or so, then added another cup.  Thats a total of 3 cups flour between the poolish and added flour (with 1 teaspon salt). I let it rest for about 10 minutes covered.
  Again on the 1 setting, I added about 1/4 to 1/2 of a cup more of flour, the ball began to form, and I shut off the machine.  I emptied the dough onto a floured counter, and kneaded for about 3-5 minutes.  (Important aside...I have had a small Pottery business at times, and tend to use the Potter's method of kneading clay, and applied to the dough...look it up on the web to see the method).
  The rest of the final four cups, I spread on the counter before hand-kneading, and just about mixed all of it into the final dough. That makes 4 cups total.
  It rested for 1 hour, with a good rise, and without punching down, I pinched off (using the Neopolitan method) 4 balls of dough ( between 240g-275g each, I know!, a couple were a little large for "official"neopolitan), and placed them into plastic containers.  I then put them into the frig.
 I have no idea what the percentages were...hydration rates etc.  I have no idea how this mix will work in my conventional oven ( it's a 550 degree with stone..I preheat for 1 and 1/2 hours.  I assume it hits 600 degrees on the stone.  My pizzas take 3-4 minutes to brown with a teeny char, crisp bottom,and chewy interior.  5 minutes produces a charred pizza with a more crisp bottom...less chewy, but still soft interior)
  My question to youse guys:
  How will this turn out after baking?  Too tangy, no tang per se?  Good rise..huge rise...no rise?
  What would be your guesses as to the results?
   
 Stay tuned for results, I may even bake one tonight, but more probably sometime between tomorrow, and Friday night..

[rdb]

So...here's the pie.

I threw a little too much flour around, but the pie is awesome. Just a tinge of tang...probably be a bit tangier in a couple days.
 The pie took 5 minutes. ( I only preheated for 1 hr.). The "corn" was not as high as an elephant's eye, but I did put sauce a little too close to edge. It folded nice without cracking. Crisp on the bottom, soft to nice chew inside.
 Toppings:  sauce, sauteed shrooms and onions, mozzarella, drizzle of evoo on top.

[abatardi]

looks/sounds delicious. 

how long did you let the dough rise after coming out of the fridge?

- aba

[rdb]

  The dough was only in the frig for a few hours, maybe 4-5hrs.  I took the the doughball out at 2:30pm...and put it in the oven at 5pm. There was  a rise, but not as much as with IDY/ADY. 

  This is the first time I used a same day rise, and the first time I used so little starter, and it was not a complete one, being partially in the frig.   Most recipes I have seen ask for 1 cup to 1 and 1/2 cups starter. I think this is based on bread baker formulas, and not necessary for most pizza applications. I haven't read Jeff's newer formulas, but I suspect he is on the lower end of starter addition also. I would love to see Pete-zza try and "mathematicize" this formula I used, and convert it to Baker's numbers. I think it has great potential, and easy too!

  When I say I threw out all the rules, it was not disrespect to all the careful formulations of so many contributors to this site. It was meant to show that using natural leavening, and simple ingredients produces a delicious pie. Exact formulations produce replicable, and consistent product. "Wingin it", for a home cook,  can produce a decent, if not superior pie, as long as basic concepts are maintained...i.e. "rest periods",  high as possible heat, hydration according to your particular oven, and most importantly, some conception of what you are trying to achieve......basic stuff.

This recipe in "winging it" numbers:

4 cups KA Bread Flour
16.9 fl oz. water, plus a dash or two (tablespoons) as flour was added to mixing
1 tsp Sea Salt
1/4 cup Ischia Starter (albeit not at it's peak)

Toppings:
Whole Tomato crushed
Sauteed onion/mushroom/garlic mix
skimmed milk mozzarella
EVOO drizzled on top



 

[Pete-zza]

rdb,

Can you tell me the exact method you use to measure out the bread flour, and also the exact method you use to either make or refresh your starter?

Peter

[rdb]

Okay Pete...but for the record, this was a one shot stab, not yet a preferred method.  I think it has a lot of potential though...Natural leavening (Ischia), Neopolitan "style" ingredients , Ease of Production, Good taste to dough, may even get better with a few days.  Not too dependent on mixers, good extensiblity, crisp, but not crackery thin crust, foldable.
 The four doughballs: 2 just under 250g, 2 just over 250g

  If I had my druthers,  I would have timed the poolish better, and possibly even less starter.


I threw out most rules.
Rules broken, include:

This was not sifted flour, and just KA Bread Flour.
This was all measured just filling a Cup measurement cup, and scraped level.
Starter not at it's peak.
No retarded rise/No complete non-refrigerated day rise, but a combination.


Rules sort of maintained:

A period of rest (autolyse)
Good/best heat possible  (with my 550d oven, probably 600d with stone)
A pretty wet dough, but far from my wettest.
Hand shaped, not rolled out.


As I said above..my starter is currently kept on the counter. My house temp is kept at  72 degrees.
It is fed everyday a 1/4 cup of flour...just enough to keep it alive,  basically. Each time I feed, I dispose of all but 1 cup of starter.
 Prior to baking, a day or two, , I feed it one cup Flour, and 3/4 water.
I don't know the whys and wherefores, but usually within one feeding, it converts from a slightly sour smell to a yeasty bread smell, and bubbles like hell.

 Now in this case, I made a poolish with 1/4 cup starter ( after shaking the whole jar of starter).  The leaven had a thick pancake batter type look to it, before I put it into the pool. I used all the water except a few tablespoons, 1 cup of flour, and the starter. It definitely rose to the top of the bowl overnight, in the poolish, and receded.
  I probably should have re-fed it it, and captured it at it's peak, but I did not..."wingin' it"

 Normally I heat my oven for 1 and 1/2 to 2 hrs ahead...this time only 1 hr. This would explain, possibly the 5 minute time...most of my pies run 3-4 minutes, which I assume is fantastic for a home oven.
 After the bakers percents are out, it may even have to do with the  hydration rate for my oven.

If anyone duplicates this, and it works out, for my Sicilian Wife, we'll call it the "Francesca".  If it doesn't, just call it a "Wingit"...lol

[Pete-zza]

rdb,

When you use your one-cup measuring cup to measure flour, do you simply dip the measuring cup into the flour and level the top or do you lift flour from the container into the measuring cup (e.g., using a spoon) and level and, if the latter, do you fluff up the flour in the container before lifting it into the measuring cup?

Let me see if I have the poolish part right. You begin by refreshing the starter by adding 1 cup of flour and 3/4 cup water. Is that flour and water separate from the flour and water in the basic recipe? Next, you use 1/4 cup of the starter (after shaking the jar), plus all of the water specified in the recipe except for a few tablespoons, plus 1 cup flour. This apparently is your "poolish". Is the flour for the poolish part of the flour from your recipe?

Peter

[rdb]

I do love your "exactitudeness"!!

I keep my flour in big plastic containers.  When I am measuring by cup, and not scale, I just dip my 1 cup ladle into the container, and overfill it.  Then just scrape level with a knife or finger...pretty rough and basic. No fluff.


 When I retain my 1 cup of starter into fresh jars, there is 200ml of material there.
 I then add 1/4 cup flour, and about three quarters of that 1/4 cup of water (what's 3/4 of 1/4?).
 That sits on my countertop.
 I maintain that level for up to a week, with 1/4 cup feedings as necessary,  until a day before baking, at which point I start with only 200ml of Ischia starter, and add 1 cup flour, and 3/4 cup water.  When it has risen to the top of my 1qt Bell Jars, and I want to use it, I shake it down good, leaving me my very thick "batter". 
 In this "poolish", I added the entire water to 1/4 cup starter, and 1 cup flour...that's it.
 Most "poolish" contains much more of the flour from the recipe, but I wanted a more refreshed starter type base. Don't ask me why, I dunno.
  At this point all flour is KA Bread Flour.

[Pete-zza]

rdb,

Thank you for the additional information. However, something doesn't seem to compute with the recipe you posted above. For example, when I used November's mass-volume conversion tool at http://tools.foodsim.com/, I got around 18.23 ounces for 4 cups of King Arthur bread flour. For the 16.9 fluid ounces of water (it's actually a tablespoon or two more), I got around 17.64 ounces. That would represent a hydration of around 97%. By my calculation, 1/4 cup of "starter" (I used the 1-cup flour/3/4-cup water combination as a proxy for your starter) comes to about 2.7 ounces. Accounting for the hydration of the proxy "starter" would have little overall effect on the total hydration (it would actually be over 100%). So, either there is some missing flour somewhere, an incorrect amount of water recited in the recipe, or there was possibly a substantial loss of water in your overnight poolish due to evaporation. To get to an overall hydration of 63%, that would mean a loss of over 1 cup of water.

Please advise in case I have made some incorrect assumptions or calculations.

Peter

[rdb]

Wow..you are good!

Thank You for that link!

 I am Truly unhappy about leading you astray...

 I just went back and made a new "poolish", to see if I need a checkup for my  my old-timers disease. I do.

 I did not use all the bottle.  I remembered wrong the first time I wrote this up. It was a cup and a half of water. plus the few tbs. ( I think I took the last swig out of the bottle...that's why I had an empty bottle of water, which I remembered as having used a whole bottle)

I measured out MY 4 cups of KA flour, and weighed it on the scale, it equaled 663g.
I weighed the water it equaled 350g.
I weighed 1/4 of Ischia at 70g



So...Corrected recipe

Flour - 663g
Water - 350
Salt - 1 tsp
Ischia Starter - 70g

That looks better,  and probably closer to 65% hydration.
That would explain why it took longer to cook than most of my pies...

 The MORALOF THE STORY:
 Wingin' it might result in something good, but if you tried to replicate it, you wouldn't be able to, and be kickin' yourself for a long time trying....

Thanks again...

[Pete-zza]

rdb,

I hate to say this, but I wonder about your flour weight. If you used 663 grams for 4 cups, that would be an average of 165.75 grams, or 5.85 ounces, per cup. I have some King Arthur bread flour and when I tried the "dip and level" method you use, I couldn't get 5.85 ounces in a cup. I had to shake the cup with the flour in it, tamp the cup several times on my work surface to get the flour to compact, and add some more to the top to get 5.85 ounces. Also, at 663 grams, the hydration would only be 52.8%, which would be far below the rated absorption of 62% +/- 2% for the King Arthur bread flour. Accounting for the starter, the hydration would increase to about 56%. If I had to guess, you may have weighed out 5 cups instead of four. On that basis (i.e., four cups), the hydration would be around 66% before accounting for the starter, and the total dough weight would be around 956 grams, or about 239 grams per dough ball. That would be below the roughly 250 grams per dough ball you mentioned you were using, but it would be closer to the mark. In reality it would be even less because it is likely that you had some small dough losses in the bowl. Typically, those losses would be somewhere around 2.5-3%. If you weighed out the flour differently this time and got lower values, that might have accounted for the shortfall.

Can you confirm your flour measurement? The water looks to be in the ballpark.

Peter

[rdb]

I redid it three times and got  659, 667, and  674g of flour...I guess I'll never be a chemist.

But, I can't see such a small variable making that much difference.

Based on:
Flour 663g
Water 350g
Starter 70g
Salt 10g
Whatever the percentages are, Those are the numbers....The Water number I previously gave was a big mistake, but the flour is what it is.

If you are interested, I will make another round of dough tomorrow as a control experiment.

 I still can't stop thinking of the starter...that's why I placed under this topic.  So little of it can do a swell job. And what of the effect of my "poolish", being just "starter", 1cup flour, and 1 1/2 cup water, and not the more typical 70% flour mix. What effect did or did not that have?

Does it increase the hydration reception of the KA Flour, beyond the rated, or no effect at all?
Increasing/Decreasing  the Starter amount must have an effect on the taste of the crust. This one was a slight tang, but a Pie I made with 1cup starter, was much tangier.  However,  they were built completely different, so I don't know. Maybe a cold retardation would allow more tang
All things to work on......

[Pete-zza]

rdb,

I went back to my kitchen and did several more weighings of King Arthur bread flour using the "dip and level" method with my one-cup measuring cup, and I still couldn't get the high readings you have been getting. It now occurs to me that perhaps you didn't tare out the weight of your measuring cup. My one-cup measuring cup is metal with straight sides, a depth of 1.75 inches, and weighs 215 grams, or 7.58 ounces. The differences we are getting are not minor, and if you properly tared out your measuring cup and continue to get the high readings you have been getting, you will want to let those people who may want to try your recipe know exactly what kind of measuring cup you are using and your exact method for lifting the flour out of your container so that they have a reasonable chance of successfully replicating your recipe. If I can't get your numbers, others may have the same problem. Using your current set of numbers also yields a total dough batch weight of around 1093 grams, or about 273 ounces per dough ball. Even accounting for the possibility of small dough losses in the bowl, the per dough ball weight comes to around 266 grams. This is higher than the roughly 250 gram dough balls you mentioned.

As far as your "poolish" is concerned, it is not technically a poolish. A poolish typically uses about 20-80% of the total formula water and an equal amount of flour, by weight, to produce a hydration of 100%. Your "poolish" is at about 154% hydration by my estimation. Also, a poolish usually includes commercial yeast in an amount determined by the type of commercial yeast to be used, the planned duration of the fermentation, the water temperature, and the room temperature at which the mix is to ferment. Obviously, within all of these parameters, there are potentially thousands of poolish combinations that can be conceived, some of which will work and some of which won't. Your particular "mix" falls outside of what is normally considered a poolish. That doesn't mean it won't produce a useful end product.

As for your question about the absorption rate of the King Arthur bread flour, it is nominally 62% +/- 2%. That is a number that is established in a laboratory setting using specialized equipment and dough characteristics. In a baker's setting, that number, called the "operational absorption", can be 2-4% higher. Also, if the flour has lost some of its original moisture content (starting from around 14-14.5%), or if the baking environment has low humidity (as is common in the winter when the heating system is working), you might be able to squeeze in another couple percent. It is possible to make a pizza dough with a hydration in the low- to-mid-50s, but the dough will be fairly dry and stiff. If your dough was wet, soft, or sticky, it is likely that your flour quantity was correct but that your numbers were off somewhere.

You might want to look into the tare issue and report back with your findings.

Peter

[rdb]

  I truly thank you for your efforts, and skills.

  I'm in the process of redoing the experiment now.
  I did not include the the cup weight in my measurements...I suspect I'm just a tad less careful in leveling, and measuring.

  To anyone who dares after all this to try this formula, please report your findings in this thread even if it scrolls down far on the list, as will I.

  I don't care if I look bad...lol, it's all about the learning. And as far off as I may seem, the Pies continue to be delicious, so I'm doing something right.

The end goal of my experiment is to use the VPN recommendations as close as possible, as I understand them, with an unmodified conventional oven, and "Italian Starters".

Part of the problems seem to me, to be the recipes.  I doubt any Pizza shop in Naples relies on the exactness. Oh sure, they use 25/50 lb bags dumped into their bowls, and probably pitchers of water too. Their are no digital scales involved, i am guessing. As Marco says, it's the pizzamaker, and his tools. As Jeff has said, it's the methods.
 I have found the Starters to somehow magically transform my best pies into something more. I will continue to follow your advices Pete-zza, I appreciate your skills, and wish I could adhere better to your standards...I may be incapable of that...lol.

[abatardi]

rdb,

I think you are right on there... I generally weigh out water/salt/yeast (instant||starter) to start off as a general guideline but the flour just goes in until it looks right.  I think I pretty much always use a little less than what I would use if I weighed it out...  I like your approach and think that we shouldn't always be trying to add ingredients to the gram unless we are November or Pete-zza and know how to factor in flour age, relative humidity, water hardness, water salinity, yeast activity, room temperature, flour compaction rates, tides, moon phase, sun spots.....   I can not do what they do.  Much respect for them to be able to figure this stuff out and reproduce things to an exact scale (and providing a very useful baseline for everything we do) but I think I would go nuts if I tried, haha. 

- aba

[Pete-zza]

rdb,

You should of course make your pizzas in the way that is most comfortable to you. Since you had expressed the wish in your opening post that I "mathematize" your recipe and convert it to baker's percents so that others might benefit, that is all I was trying to do. And I only know one way to do that--to capture all the information needed and organize it in a methodical way. Otherwise, the results I create could be unreliable and people might not be able to replicate your results.

Peter

[November]

I like your approach and think that we shouldn't always be trying to add ingredients to the gram

I agree that rdb should use whatever method is comfortable for him, but a problem arises when others try to duplicate his efforts as stated by Peter.  It comes down to a little thing called probability of success.  If you're familiar with probability theory, you know that the probability of something occurring decreases with the increase in the number of conditions.  If you're not familiar, I'll use a simple example I think most people can follow along with.  In a lottery system, you generally have a set of numbers from which to choose a smaller set in an attempt to match the official drawing.  Suppose the set of numbers to choose from included the range 1 to 50.  Suppose also that the smaller set of numbers to choose numbered 5.  That means in order to win the grand prize you must choose 5 numbers from the set ranging from 1 to 50 where your 5 numbers match the officially drawn 5 numbers.  As most people know, the more numbers one has to choose to correctly match the official numbers, the lower the probability of winning.  In other words, having to choose 5 out of 5 is more difficult than choosing 4 out of 5, or 3 out of 5.  Since it's not a linear relationship between the percentage of numbers that match, 4 out of 5 is a lot easier to get than 5 out of 5, which is why the prize for getting 4 out 5 is so low in comparison to the grand prize.  I won't go into the mathematics of it, but I hope you're still with me so far.

Now for the recipe analogy.  Suppose there are 50 things that could be measured in a bread recipe.  You can even include sunspots if you want.  Suppose also that a baker came up with a great bread recipe and wanted to relay it to the world.  He might choose to capture 5 out of those things that could be measured in order to ensure others will have enough information to duplicate his success.  Sadly for the astrophysics fans, he didn't choose sunspots as one of his 5.  He chose ingredient weights, knead time, humidity, rise temperature, and oven temperature.  Of course it's difficult for everyone to measure humidity, so true to your intentions when you made the humorous list of things one can incorporate into a recipe, that may drop off some people's list of things to check.  Right away, we're now at 4 out 5.  Some people may find that acceptable.  Even though it means not hitting the $20,000,000 jackpot, $5,000 isn't bad.  Now let's suppose we weren't exact with the ingredient measurements.  Uh, oh.  Now we're down to 3 out 5.  $10 at least gets your original investment back and few dollars to spare.  However, if just one more detail is overlooked, even by accident, you're now at 2 out of 5 and win nothing as a result.

Hopefully that wasn't too simplified, and you understand why it's important to keep as many of the important measurements as accurate as possible whenever possible.  You never know when one or more of the other critical aspects might be off and the result is nothing like what was intended.  It's not about being perfect, it's about increasing your probability of success.

- red.november

[abatardi]

Hopefully that wasn't too simplified, and you understand why it's important to keep as many of the important measurements as accurate as possible whenever possible.  You never know when one or more of the other critical aspects might be off and the result is nothing like what was intended.  It's not about being perfect, it's about increasing your probability of success.

- red.november

True, but I guess I was just trying to point out (and I think rdb was doing this as well) that you can still make a decent pie without following exacting specifications and just winging it once in a while... this is how my gram and mom and all the old timers do it also and helps gain experience I think.  Also I've created some of my best bread doing this as well.

- aba

[Pete-zza]

Aaron,

As a practical matter, I think that you will find that people who use preferments, like poolish, in a home environment will be operating a lot on volume measurements. That is because few people know the makeup of their preferments in terms of the amount of flour and water, by weight. In most cases, they add flour and water to their starters mainly by feel. Consequently, they won't know the hydration of their preferments and will often find it necessary to adjust the water and/or flour in the bowl at the time of the final mix. Professional artisan bakers control these factors, and many others, in their preferments. Otherwise they could not make a consistent, reproducible product and they would be out of business in short order.

But the issue in this thread was not whether one should or should not use volume measurements. It was how does one convert a dough formulation that was formed by "throwing out all of the rules" and "winging" it into a baker's percent format. In almost all cases, the toughest part of doing this is the flour and being able to get an accurate weight to be able to calculate the baker's percents for the remaining ingredients, all of which are stated as percents of the flour weight. I recently did a series of weighings of flour in connection with another thread, at Reply 54 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4445.msg39307.html#msg39307, to demonstrate how the way one measures out flour can affect the weight of a volume of flour. I also tried to point out that it is possible to improve the chances of success of the recipe by stating the particular method used to measure out the flour. I have absolutely no quarrel if one chooses just to measure out flour by volume--using any method. But on several occasions I have witnessed that the person doing so will come back later when the results do not pan out and essentially "blame" either the recipe or the author of the recipe, even when the recipe has been proven to be a reliable one over and over again. I know from my own diagnostic experience that it is very difficult under these circumstances to correct whatever problems the person experienced. Using weights for flour and water does not cure every problem but it does eliminate most problems associated with these ingredients in an otherwise functional recipe.

Peter

[rdb]

Pete-zza, November, and abrtardi. Nobody is wrong in this discussion. Pete's right...absolutely, that's why I went back to do this again. I took much more care this time, and recorded as faithfully (albeit in my impaired way) as I could, measuring with a scale this time. I'm suspecting, the humidity in my house is extremely variable.

690g -KABread Flour
70g - Ischia refreshed starter
1 tsp sea salt
355g - water (with 4tsp exact added while mixing)

First I made a bowl with the 70g starter, and all but the 4tsp of water, and 1 cup flour (extra refreshing, I guess). I placed it in my homemade proof box for about 4 hrs. I then put that in my KA with mixing blade, and over five minutes of mixing I added the salt, and another 2 1/2 cups of the premeasured flour.
I placed the remaining flour on the counter, and emptied the KA bowl onto that remaing flour. I then hand kneaded for about 5minutes. The ball incorporated all but 20g of the flour. I let that rise in the proofing box for about an hour.  The final ball weight was 903g.  Then pinched off 4 balls of dough ( they weighed 251, 230, 229, and 198g  (somehow, the individual balls weighed 5g more!

Here's the pic of the first pie from that batch: