Author Topic: Forno Napoletano  (Read 7583 times)

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Offline sumeri

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Forno Napoletano
« on: February 14, 2007, 07:29:51 PM »
Hey Everyone,
I have been pretty busy the past few months opening a new pizzeria in downtown Salt Lake City.  We now have a Napoletano forno in our pizzeria in Vegas and Salt Lake and I have to say there is no comparison to the prefab ovens.  An article came out today that shows the pizzas we are making with our new oven.
http://www.slweekly.com/article.cfm/margheritaville
I will try and take some other pictures but I am terrible at remembering that stuff.
We have found that the pizzas cook perfectly and there is usually no need to lift the pizza in the air for any reason other than to pick up a little smokey flavor.  Compare that to having to hold each pizza up for a good 10-20seconds with our old oven.  Our cook times range from just over a minute during slow times, to 35 seconds when the oven is really going.  Let me just say, without getting Repguy mad at me, for making pizza napoletana there is no substitute for a hand made napoletano oven.  My pizza maker is still mad for making him cook in a pre fab oven for an entire year.
As you can see from the pic we still have to decorate the oven, the company we bought from doesn't tile it with marble mosaics like Marco's company.    Also you can see from the pic that the one concession we have made for the American pallete is that we put a little less tomato than I was taught in Napoli.  We go a little beaten down by all the complaints of soggy pizza, since we started putting less on we have not had a single complaint.  To tell you the truth I actually like it with a little less tomato.  I think that is one reason why Pizzeria del Presidente was my favorite pizza was Napoli, they seem to put a little less tomato than most.  For me it really allows you to be able to taste the oil and parmigiano.


Offline abatardi

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2007, 01:32:18 AM »
Sounds cool.  I am going to be out in SLC at the end of June / early July.  I'll be sure to stop in and try the new location.  I went to the Henderson location last April so I'm eager to try pies from the neapolitan oven.

- aba
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2007, 03:36:22 AM »
Hi Brad,

Well done on the pizza, it now looks Right, very right....

Ciao

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2007, 03:41:25 AM »
x

Offline Daniel-B.

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2007, 05:17:29 AM »
Is the company which built your oven based in Naple and they come over to you in order to build it up or are they based in the U.S.?

Offline scpizza

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2007, 08:32:43 AM »
Wow, congratulations.  Very exciting.

Interesting to hear the prefabs really don't cut it.  What is the name of the company that built it.  Can you give a sense of what these ovens cost?

Also curious about your education in Naples, can you reveal more about that?

Offline sumeri

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2007, 01:15:41 PM »
Thanks for the kind words.  We had tried to get an oven through Marco's company (Forno Napoletano) but it was a difficult time right before the Italians go on holiday in August.  We ended up going with a company called Acunto.  While I can personally attest for the quality of the pizzas coming out I have heard some say that their durability has been a problem.
There are really two methods for getting a forno napoletano.  You can have one built in Napoli and shipped to you, or you can have the materials and a reputable builder shipped over and have the oven built on site.  I do not know the costs for having an oven built on site, but you can expect to pay about 10,000 for an oven and shipping.  Less if this crappy exchange rate would ever get better.  This is not much different from a prefab oven from a company here in the States.  I would not recommend the route I went, buy a prefab, have a facade put on it, have it demoed a year later and replaced with a Napoli oven...not the smartest of moves on my part!
One nice feature of Forno Napoletano (Which Marco represents) is that the stand the oven comes on is on wheels.  I can't tell you how difficult and stressful the process is of getting the oven in place.  Having the oven on wheels would be a huge plus.

Marco, I replied to your message but your inbox is full.

Offline shango

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2007, 07:57:12 PM »
Wow!
I am totally jealous...
Would love to try it some time. ::)


Do you really feel that the oven makes you a better pizza cooker? 
Are you keeping records of the temperature between service hours?
Do you ever take any of the coals out?

Last question;  have you had to change the way you manage your coals and actual flames or is it pretty much business as usual?

Thanks,
-E
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline scpizza

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2007, 08:56:49 PM »
Thanks for the insights on ovens, very interesting.  I agree that $10,000 doesn't seems like much in excess of a prefab so getting an Acunto or a Forno Napoletano seems to make a good bit of sense for anyone serious about pizza.  And if it is on wheels and not permanently installed, it would seem to be more easily movable if the restaurant moves or resalable if it goes out of business.

Offline shango

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2007, 09:55:22 PM »
these oven threads are interesting.
I am dying to get my hands on the real deal...
anyone that could let me try a "forno napoletano", perhaps?
I will bring cured pork products!!
-E
pizza, pizza, pizza


Offline Daniel-B.

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2007, 05:57:49 AM »
I tought that your oven was from acunto as it looks from the layout very similar to the pictures that they have on their website.

I saw that they also offer a model using GAS. Were you able to see this in action or give it a try?

Offline sumeri

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2007, 12:15:28 PM »
I would not say that a good oven can make me or anyone a better fornaio, the technical skills required are pretty much the same. On a scale of 1-10 I was about a 4 with the old oven and I'm about a 4 with the new oven.  Give me a couple of more years and I might consider myself good on the oven.  It is, without a doubt, much less stressful.  With the prefab we were literally cooking the pizza twice, once on the floor and once in the air.  Heat management was a lot harder also.  We were constantly taking out the coal to try and keep the floor temp down.  Now we do not empty anything but ash, the floor and dome are perfectly balanced.
Shango anytime you are in Vegas or SLC let me know, I would be happy to let you try it out.
I saw where acunto is now making a gas model, but I have never tried it. 
We are in the process now of putting tile on the oven, I am going to try and make it look similar to the oven at Pizzeria del Presidente, but I decided to do the work myself so nobody has much confidence that I can pull it off!
I'll put some better pics up when we are finished.
One last economical note about the new oven.  We are now spending almost 40% less on wood.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2007, 12:33:00 PM »
We are now spending almost 40% less on wood.

It is nice to hear it from someone else.... Some times I sounded like a broken record.... Why neapolitan ovens are good, why this why that,

You said it all (floor/sky balance etc...) but the last point you quoted it is also important to consider when you think about the cost of the oven in  a commercial pizzeria. Here in london, 40% less wood could mean a saving of at least 2500 a year..........(if I am not wrong is about 4742 dollars)  At London prices...

Offline shango

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2007, 01:26:46 PM »
Sumeri,
That sounds like it is much nicer.  I guess it is an efficiency and consistency booster.
If I am ever in Las Vegas I will definately look you guys up.
thanks,
-E
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline scpizza

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2007, 01:37:16 PM »
I saw where acunto is now making a gas model, but I have never tried it. 
In another post Varasano made a comment that gas defeats the purpose of a brick oven because the extra moisture generated from burning gas instead of wood impairs the drying action of the brick.  Anyone have any comments on this?  If this is not true, gas would seem to be the way to go for ease and cost.

Offline shango

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2007, 01:44:40 PM »
I did  a consulting job for a place where the build-out was already finished,  They had one of these Woodstone propane ovens with an "infra-red" under deck burner ??? (WTF)

It was the biggest piece of garbage and must have cost about 30000 dollars.
The only way to get a decent pizza out was to put the gas to the off setting and throw a ton of wood in there to cook the pizza.
hopefully the floor wasn't all screwed up and the air to cold bottom burnt, broken cheese *rant* etc*RANT*...

Do not go this route.

For Neapolitan pizza, or if you like neapolitan "style" pizza this was a professional embarrassment. 

Also, if you are going to hire a consultant (pizzaiolo) to help you make pizze, then make sure they are involved in the build-out as well.
architects and kitchen designers do not know how to lay out a kitchen for this purpose...

* rant, rant*

be good,
-E

pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline November

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2007, 02:05:32 PM »
In another post Varasano made a comment that gas defeats the purpose of a brick oven because the extra moisture generated from burning gas instead of wood impairs the drying action of the brick.  Anyone have any comments on this?  If this is not true, gas would seem to be the way to go for ease and cost.

Assuming enough oxygen is present and enough heat is generated through reaction kinetics to offer complete combustion, here are the combustion equations for both forms of fuel:

Cellulose (wood)
(C6H10O5)n + 6O2 --> 6CO2 + 5H2O

Methane (90% of natural gas)
6CH4 + 12O2 --> 6CO2 + 12H2O

As you can see, after adjusting for the same carbon content, methane combustion produces 2.4x more water than wood combustion.

- red.november

Offline November

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2007, 02:13:36 PM »
Woodstone propane ovens

Since Shango mentioned propane as a fuel source for an oven, here is the combustion equation for propane:

2C3H8 + 10O2 --> 6CO2 + 8H2O

As you can see, it's not as bad as methane (natural gas), but it's still not as dry as wood combustion.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2007, 02:15:37 PM »
Evelyne Slomon also discussed the gas vs. wood issue at Reply 40 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3399.msg28999.html#msg28999.

Peter

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2007, 02:20:19 PM »


Cellulose (wood)
(C6H10O5)n + 6O2 --> 6CO2 + 5H2O


- red.november

But you are not taking into consideration the moisture contenent of the wood which is always present...



 

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