Author Topic: Forno Napoletano  (Read 7814 times)

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Offline November

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2007, 02:21:57 PM »
Evelyne Slomon also discussed the gas vs. wood issue at Reply 40 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3399.msg28999.html#msg28999.

"Gas is a liquid and thus produces a more moist heat."

I'm sorry, but that is simply and completely false.  How much water is produced from a combustion reaction has absolutely nothing to do with whether the fuel source is a liquid or a gas stored under pressure.

- red.november


Offline November

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2007, 02:33:36 PM »
But you are not taking into consideration the moisture contenent of the wood which is always present...

You tell me what the humidity is of the location where the wood is stored, and I'll take humidity into account.  If wood is stored where there is no humidity, the moisture content of the wood would eventually match the humidity of the air (or at least find equilibrium if there isn't ventilation) through diffusion.  Even with a small percentage above 0 you're just splitting insignificant hairs.

- red.november

EDIT: Just for the sake of completeness, here's the combustion equation for wood assuming that the wood was stored at various relative humidities up to 70% (which is higher than it should be stored anyway):

70% Relative Humidity
(C6H10O5)n + 1.6H2O + 6O2 --> 6CO2 + 6.6H2O

50% Relative Humidity
(C6H10O5)n + 1.112H2O + 6O2 --> 6CO2 + 6.112H2O

30% Relative Humidity
(C6H10O5)n + 0.68H2O + 6O2 --> 6CO2 + 5.68H2O
« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 02:50:08 PM by November »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2007, 02:53:01 PM »
 


:-D :-D :-D

Wood is sold with a humidity content of 15 to 30%...... Well seasoned beech wood for ovens is sold at least at 15%..... (measured with an Igrometer)

IT does make a big difference.



Offline November

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2007, 02:57:58 PM »
Wood is sold with a humidity content of 15 to 30%...... Well seasoned beech wood for ovens is sold at least at 15%..... (measured with an Igrometer)

Then look at the equation I provided for 70% relative humidity, because that's 15% moisture content.  It would only be 30% if it were allowed to sit in the rain.

IT does make a big difference.

Not when compared to natural or propane gas combustion which is what I was responding to.

- red.november

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2007, 03:04:28 PM »
November,

It is about seasoned wood and it depends on when it was cut... Well seasoned wood do not re-absorb much humidity even if it seats in the rain. Most wood are sold with few months seasoning. The best wood I ever came across was 15% and was 2 years old......

Anyway, for pizza napoletana you needs a certain environment that is not re-produced with gas. By using the human senses itcan be easily identified.

Offline November

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2007, 03:16:38 PM »
It is about seasoned wood and it depends on when it was cut... Well seasoned wood do not re-absorb much humidity even if it seats in the rain. Most wood are sold with few months seasoning. The best wood I ever came across was 15% and was 2 years old......

It doesn't make any difference how dry (seasoned) the wood is, there are standard ways (diffusion equations) of calculating how long it takes for wood to lose or gain moisture through humidity.  15% sounds about right because wood left outside (but out of the rain) has about 15% moisture content.  However, one shouldn't store wood that way.  One should store their wood near the hearth or opening of the oven to let it dry out more.  The relative humidity near a wood burning oven should be much lower than 70%.  Most times there is a brick cavity built next to the oven for storing the wood, and I guarantee the heat that comes through that brick wall drives most of the moisture out of the wood.

In any case, wood will always burn with less water in its combustion products than methane or propane.  That's the bottom line.

- red.november

Offline shango

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2007, 03:27:10 PM »
uhh... :-D
 :-X
pizza, pizza, pizza

Offline scpizza

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2007, 03:34:30 PM »
If drier heat creates better crust, then maybe an electric oven adding 0 water would bake better than a wood-burning one.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2007, 03:36:19 PM »
My arguement wasn't that there is less or more humidity that gas, but that there was the right humidity level to bake pizza napoletana. If the wood is not seasoned properly the time near the oven doesn't help much.

The bottom line is that gas ovens do not deliver the same quality of pizza napoletana as a wood oven, even if these are made by the same manufacturer... And by baking in the two you will realize that.

I love science and have been studying a lot of "food science" in the last few years, but make no mistake, when it comes to artisanal products, Science help to understand but it is skills that make possible the production of masterpiece....

All the food technologist I work with have long realised this..... :-D :-D

« Last Edit: February 16, 2007, 03:38:03 PM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline November

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2007, 03:42:26 PM »
If drier heat creates better crust, then maybe an electric oven adding 0 water would bake better than a wood-burning one.

I almost said something about that because I had a feeling someone was going to ask.  In theory, yes, an electric oven should bake with the lowest amount of moisture.  However, that can only be optimized by either ventilation or tiling for the moisture to have a place to go.  In a wood burning oven you have ventilation which can carry away excess moisture.  It's a safe bet though that more moisture will come from the pizza itself than the burning wood baking it.  Of course, an electric oven can't replace the dynamics or flavor attributed to wood.  Very few electric ovens get as hot as wood either.

- red.november


Offline November

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2007, 03:58:10 PM »
My arguement wasn't that there is less or more humidity that gas, but that there was the right humidity level to bake pizza napoletana. If the wood is not seasoned properly the time near the oven doesn't help much.

Marco, nobody has defined how much time the wood spends near the oven.  It could be there for weeks, which in fact could reduce the moisture by half or more.  As far as your argument goes, I don't see the connection between my reply to scpizza and "the right humidity level."

The bottom line is that gas ovens do not deliver the same quality of pizza napoletana as a wood oven, even if these are made by the same manufacturer... And by baking in the two you will realize that.

I don't recall seeing anyone trying to refute that.  All that was being compared was the moisture of the two.  No conclusions were drawn as to the quality or Neapolitan authenticity of either oven.

- red.november

Offline rdb

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2007, 04:25:32 PM »
"I have no dog in this fight". Matter of fact...there is no fight. I believe there is a language barrier, however.

Where November is answering a direct question as to the moistures present in various combustibles, Marco is arguing an ideal environment he feels necessary for a true Neopolitan oven.
Both are correct, in my humble opinion.

 What I am interested in, since I intend to build my own oven this spring, in the yard is  my understanding of the oven's dynamics.  My reading indicates that air and moisture enter the oven from the opening. Because of the oven's shape, the combustion of the wood, the air, and the moisture circulate throughout the oven and by thermal dynamics are led up, and forward to be vented through the chimney. This is why chimneys are not in the back of the oven...everything would leave the oven too quickly that way, without circulating.  The next thing that is considered essential is the thickness of both the floor, and the walls of the oven.
 Too thin, and the heat is hard to maintain...too thick, and it takes too long to heat up.
 Lastly, the insulation of the entire oven keeps the dynamics consistent.

Am I correct in this summation?

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2007, 04:26:06 PM »
Marco, nobody has defined how much time the wood spends near the oven.  It could be there for weeks, which in fact could reduce the moisture by half or more.  As far as your argument goes, I don't see the connection between my reply to scpizza and "the right humidity level."

I don't recall seeing anyone trying to refute that.  All that was being compared was the moisture of the two.  No conclusions were drawn as to the quality or Neapolitan authenticity of either oven.

- red.november

I think this post is moving away from the original subject in any case, any professionals pizzaiolo knows that these space near the oven usually do not cantain more then 3 days worth of wood........ and you can only put it by the mouth (as you suggested) for about 20-30 minutes and anyway it is a couple of pieces at the time....

The right moisture level was not in response to scpizza has I was already posting while he wrote it. To bake bread you need a lot of moisture for pizza very little but that little is important.

Ciao

Offline November

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2007, 04:46:23 PM »
Marco,

"The right moisture level was not in response to scpizza"

I have yet to hear what you consider the ideal moisture content for wood; only that there is one.  Are you suggesting that 15% is ideal?  Something not mentioned yet, but the more moisture the wood has, the cooler the wood will burn.  I don't see why someone wouldn't want the driest wood possible if they want the hottest oven.

- red.november

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2007, 05:10:53 PM »
This is good stuff...  >:D
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline abatardi

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2007, 09:10:14 PM »
 :-D
Make me a bicycle CLOWN!

Offline scpizza

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2007, 07:34:48 AM »
I almost said something about that because I had a feeling someone was going to ask.  In theory, yes, an electric oven should bake with the lowest amount of moisture.  However, that can only be optimized by either ventilation or tiling for the moisture to have a place to go.  In a wood burning oven you have ventilation which can carry away excess moisture.  It's a safe bet though that more moisture will come from the pizza itself than the burning wood baking it.  Of course, an electric oven can't replace the dynamics or flavor attributed to wood.  Very few electric ovens get as hot as wood either.

Well, I found brick-lined industrial benchtop electric furnaces that get to 2000F, so it is possible.

What I'm hearing from you is a flow of hot air over the pizza results from the continuous production of combustion gases from a burning log or burning methane/propane.  This convection of hot air has much to do with the drying action of the oven.  An electric setup would lack this and could result in stagnant air accumulating moisture from the pizza that then wouldn't cook properly.

Perhaps one could include fan-forced convection to replicate the gas flow.  A cursory search reveals the hottest brick lined convection ovens out there only going to 650F and definitely shaped wrong for pizza.  Would make for a fascinating oven modification project to take an authentic Neapolitan dome and fit it with industrial electric heating coils and a convection fan.  Could turn out pizza cooked better than the traditional way with wood.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2007, 07:50:42 AM »
Someone has removed my last post?????

Well, I won't post it again.. I will be waiting to see pictures that demonstrates your theories...

Ciao

Offline November

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2007, 07:52:57 AM »
What I'm hearing from you is a flow of hot air over the pizza results from the continuous production of combustion gases from a burning log or burning methane/propane.  This convection of hot air has much to do with the drying action of the oven.  An electric setup would lack this and could result in stagnant air accumulating moisture from the pizza that then wouldn't cook properly.

"A lot of the heat transfer in a wood-burning oven is by convection, and I know nobody is going to argue that pizzas don't bake well in a wood-burning oven." -
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4037.msg33740.html#msg33740

Yes, that's essentially what I'm saying, but air in a conventional electric oven isn't exactly stagnate.  There are convection currents of air, just not nearly as much as in a wood-burning oven.  I also wouldn't be so definitive as saying that a pizza wouldn't cook properly, but that it wouldn't cook to some people's satisfaction.

Perhaps one could include fan-forced convection to replicate the gas flow.

Just as long as there is a balance of conduction, convection, and radiant heat; and you don't go overboard on the convection.  Otherwise your pizza will just dry out instead of bake.  It might be useful to take a trip to your favorite wood-burning pizzeria and measure the air flow in their oven.  If you have no way of doing that, I can probably give you a decent estimate based on a few calculations.

- red.november

Offline November

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Re: Forno Napoletano
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2007, 07:55:25 AM »
Well, I won't post it again.. I will be waiting to see pictures that demonstrates your theories...

How inconvenient.  Would you mind explaining to whom you are addressing and what theory needs a pictorial?


 

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