Author Topic: Little Black Egg  (Read 268168 times)

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Offline 8-slice

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #780 on: April 09, 2010, 03:21:38 PM »
8-slice....Great looking pizza! What is the BTU rating of your propane burner?

    Villa Roma

Thanks Villa! You're invention has definitely reinvented my  :pizza:!

Unfortunately down here, they don't sell these guys with BTU ratings... I wish I knew. I can tell you that the ring diameter is 12.5 cms, and it's connected to a 10kg natural gas canister via a Fisher Valve that just snaps on (it does have a little regulator screw/dial on top)...

8-s :chef:

Offline sparetire

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #781 on: April 13, 2010, 10:37:15 AM »
New LBE landed in Balch Springs Texas...

I used the 19" one touch Weber with the SP10, 12 inch hole in the bottom of the Weber,  two OSO 16 pizza stones, lined it with HD foil, cut the side vent ala Villa Roma, cut the lip off the ash catcher and installed that in the lid.  First firing was last night and with a new tank you no doubt could get up past 900 deg.  I burned all the bottoms of 3 pies to some degree, all edible... but I definitely need to work on technique.  Cooked at about 850+ degrees and they all cooked in 1.5 minutes or so.  I used too much bench flour and had lost too much moisture from the dough.  Is a simple unbleached ap, water, salt, ADY recipe... the one for Neopolitan out of American Pie.  I will have to start weighing my ingredients and going for a higher hydration level.

The oven is amazing, thanks VR and those that worked out the bugs...  it is such a huge improvement over my Cuisinart Brick Oven Toaster Oven.  Now I have to get my technique up to what this beast can do.  I will post some pics once I figure out how to. 




Offline 8-slice

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #782 on: April 15, 2010, 01:23:02 PM »
Good job, sparetire!  ;D

Post some pics to appreciate your beast..... Proper cooking technique is a MUST!!  :chef:

The best temp ranges are a bit lower, so as to get an even pizza.... Napolitan pizzas are raised by the pizzaiolo in the final stretch to get the proper burnt cornicione.... If you leave it on the floor you'll get charcoal pizza!

8-slice

Offline mako

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #783 on: May 12, 2010, 04:50:12 AM »
OK. In the past 24 hours I've gone from 'hey, people seem to have good things to say about that Weber grill pizza oven thing' to reading all 40 pages of this thread, to pricing parts from craigslist, harbor freight, Amazon, and a dozen other places. At this point it's late, I'm a little twitchy, and I have questions. Forgive my enthusiasm and my overthinking.

I'm starting to pick up the importance of, and difference between, adding thermal mass and adding insulation. Traditional WFOs have got a lot of thermal mass above, and a lot below. The LBE has got plenty below (as beefy a stone as you want, firebricks, and the added benefit of the heat source being down there) but is by default lacking above (just the optional mini stone). Traditional WFOs have also got a bunch of insulation both above and below. Of course, they've also got a lot more space and a much less forgiving heat source, so a direct comparison isn't quite fair. The LBE is essentially completely without insulation (except for the couple with ceramic blankets added).

As such, one of the more common stumbling blocks seems to be effectively dialing things in so that the top gets heat commensurate with the bottom.

My question: Would there be a benefit to more closely mimicking the action of a traditional oven? My thought is to attempt to build a layer of insulation (either ceramic blanket or perlite/vermiculite-cement) and a layer of thermal mass (large stone or refractory mortar) into the lid of a 22" weber (I prefer a big pie). Have I got any chance? Or will it be just too tight? Can I get enough insulation in there to make a difference? I'm not really sure how much clearance I'll need in the end. Also I've got basically no experience with working with these things, so I'm really just completely guessing based on theory rather than practice.

I notice the pizzahacker design gets around the clearance issue by building up a spacer between the lid (in his case, a newly fabricated refractory cement and perlite lid) and the grill. That's an appealing possibility, as it's also an easy(-ish) way to make a vent/door through which to feed the pizzas. I'm curious what he used to build his replacement top from, as it seems like something like that plus all the great ideas here could work together quite well.

I feel like adding insulation and relying on more radiant heat from the top should lead to a more even, more fuel-efficient cooking device. But I do wonder if these steps would counteract the simple conductive/convective cooking power of the LBE. I guess it's just something that'll require testing after I get around to assembling a first attempt. Now if those folks from craigslist will just email me back...

Thanks for all the great ideas in this thread. Clearly, they've got me going.

Offline 8-slice

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #784 on: May 16, 2010, 04:45:43 PM »
Ok, it's sunday so I'll keep my opinions short and sweet.

About thermal mass. In a brick oven, bottom cooking = conduction. Hot bricks, nice char. To get the brick nice and hot, and have a steady temperature, their thermal mass is important, as it helps them maintain their high temp. regardless of variations in the amount of heat being produced at a given time (as in fresh logs vs. dying out logs).

Top cooking = convection. Hot air flow, nice spotted cornicione. The heat retained by the dome bricks is important for the air not to lose it's heat as it swirls round the oven, thus transmitting more of that heat to the pizzas inside.

Now for the LBE. If you take the lid off your oven, when the bricks are about 400ºC, and you hover your hand about 6 inches above, the heat in the bricks WIIL NOT burn or even heat your hand up (remember, with the lid off). In a brick oven, the distance between the dome and the pizzas is much greater. What WILL scorch you out, is the hot air flowing around the oven, same as in the LBE. The high BTU output (as you blast up the heat) creates that convection style for top cooking, while the bottom stone (or firebricks in my case) does the base cooking.

It's MY belief that top stones don't carry much weight with top browning/scorching. I don't have one, I just have a lowered ceiling wrapped in foil, and I can burn the top of my pizzas to a crisp if I crank up the gas higher than I should. :P

I will say this: it's up to everyone to express their beliefs and ideas, I just want to chip in with my 2c :-[.... I in no way believe that top stones are wrong, or insulation is wasted. My mindset just comes from my humble observations, and I hope it helps somebody out. God knows I thank all the people who did this before me, and showed me the way.

8-slice :chef:

Offline Tampa

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #785 on: May 16, 2010, 07:05:45 PM »
8-slice is right on with his comments.
Dave

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #786 on: May 16, 2010, 08:33:56 PM »
8-slice, I can tell you my own experience... when I added the top stone to my LBE, I got much better spotting on the top of the pie. While your assessment about it not being due to thermal mass may be spot on, it could definitely be due to the hot convection air being forced closer to the pie. Either way, I'm sticking with my top stone.
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron
Everything Voluntary

http://newtexianbrew.com - http://ronlennex.com/

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #787 on: May 16, 2010, 08:49:57 PM »
8 slice, not sure if you posted this elsewhere but can you discuss the dough formulation and methods you used? 

Thx

Offline mako

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #788 on: May 16, 2010, 11:37:03 PM »
8-Slice: Thanks for the feedback. I agree with you that the LBE seems to cook primarily with convection on top; I can't tell how important radiation is in any of the models I've seen.

I Imagine a real wood fired oven, however, does provide significant radiant heat from the top, and comparatively less convective action (though, once again, I don't have any REAL knowledge, and I'm just guessing). The bricks on top of a WFO get white-hot (at least, that's how I've seen it described), and it'll keep on providing even cooking even with a door over the front, which must leave the air much less turbulent (though still scorchingly hot).

Anyway, picked up a couple weber grills off craigslist and a burner and regulator from Academy. Started cutting with a hacksaw blade, but that was too miserable and my cuts were looking ugly (it's hard to get that curve), so I'm waiting to pick up a dremel bit (which makes me feel embarrassingly lazy). Gotta go check out insulating blankets, fire bricks, kiln shelves and soapstone this week. And maybe start sweet talking some of my friends with metalworking tools/skills. Free pizza should be a compelling offer.

On another note, this hasn't been mentioned here, and I think it's worth checking out. I stumbled on another interesting take on the LBE concept (though this one isn't so little) at Forno Bravo: the "Forno Clamshell" (I'm too new to post the link-- search google or Forno Bravo's forums). It uses 2 grills in a matryoshka style, with insulation between the two, and the burner mounted within the larger grill. Uses a top vent rather than one on the side, but other than those variations, it's not far off from the canonical designs here. It looks like a real monster -- might give you folks even more clever ideas.

Offline 8-slice

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #789 on: May 18, 2010, 02:30:10 PM »
8 slice, not sure if you posted this elsewhere but can you discuss the dough formulation and methods you used? 

Thx

Tranman,

I haven't mentioned it yet.... I have tried all sorts of percentages and yeasts (except natural starters - wasn't successful with the one I tried to create).  :(

I've tried 55-70% hydration, and tried Italian 00, bread flour and pastry flour (which has a very fine mill much like 00). I currently use a 80/20% mix of pastry/premium bread flour from local suppliers, at about 67% hydration. I've used IDY (at first), then for a long time ADY, and now, I love fresh yeast (fleischmann's). Also various types of mixing/kneading methods (and NO kneading too)...

In my years of experimenting (like most folks here), my personal opinion is that proper hydration (slow incorporation of flour into water, plus rest periods - I hand mix) followed by flour mill and quality, AND freshness of the yeast are key. Also important is properly risen dough. I do natural rises, @ aprox. VPN times, about 1-2 hr bulk and 6-9 hrs ball rise (this last depending on room temp. In winter I can go 12+ hrs, or compensate with a little more yeast or raising room temp). Now that I read this, that's sort of everything.  :P

My formulation is straightforward (% | 3 pizza)

Flour 100% | 540 gr
Water (I use mineral water) 66.6% >:D hahahaha | 360 gr
Salt 2.77% | 15 gr
Fresh yeast 0.27% | 1.5 gr

Hope this helps some,

8-slice  :chef:

Last weeks "spanish" pizza (needs more sausage)

Offline 8-slice

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #790 on: May 18, 2010, 02:38:59 PM »
8-slice, I can tell you my own experience... when I added the top stone to my LBE, I got much better spotting on the top of the pie. While your assessment about it not being due to thermal mass may be spot on, it could definitely be due to the hot convection air being forced closer to the pie. Either way, I'm sticking with my top stone.

Ronzo,

If I could get a cheap round stone down here to hang from my egg instead of the foil-wrapped pizza pan, I would! But as you say, probably more important is forcing the air closer to the pies by reducing upper chamber space...

That said, I definitely think pizzaiolo LBE expertise far outweighs the subtle differences between our eggs.... none of my friends could even warm up toast in my silver beast! :chef:

8-slice

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #791 on: May 18, 2010, 05:01:16 PM »
8 slice, thank you for sharing your experience and insight.  I have fooled around with pastry flour a bit without much success.  I will have to retry with your methods.  I have also recently acquired caputo 00 and without much luck either. 

I will definitely keep at it until I get there someday.  Your post is a d@mn good starting point tho so thanks for that.  I know that same info can be found in the volumes of posts on this forum, but I only have so much time to read as I'm making pizza the other hours I'm not here. 

Ah yes, the infamous 66.6%.  I have seen it several times and always think twice about it.   :angel:  Do I have to sell my soul to the  >:D to make a neopolitan or what?

Say what?  you hand knead?  that's awesome.   PM sent.  Just sitting here contemplating on pulling the trigger again on a Bosch but don't want to give up on hand kneading yet.  I have hand kneaded at least 100 pies and always wonder what I'm missing out on by not having a mixer.  geez.   

OK thanks again.  BTW, your pies look killer.

Tran
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 05:08:27 PM by Tranman »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #792 on: May 19, 2010, 08:30:49 AM »
8 slice, I tried your method and formulation with much success!  I was also experimenting with a new oven set up and a new technique with the food processor. Everything worked out well lastnight and came together nicely. Thank you very much. I don't have a LBE/LSE so I posted the pics in ....
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11015.0.html
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 11:52:26 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #793 on: May 19, 2010, 08:56:39 AM »
Ronzo,

If I could get a cheap round stone down here to hang from my egg instead of the foil-wrapped pizza pan, I would! But as you say, probably more important is forcing the air closer to the pies by reducing upper chamber space...

That said, I definitely think pizzaiolo LBE expertise far outweighs the subtle differences between our eggs.... none of my friends could even warm up toast in my silver beast! :chef:

8-slice

Practice! Practice! Practice! is making me Fatter! Fatter! Fatter! :)

Check out your local pottery supply store. The 15" kiln shelf that used to be my 18" LBE's surface stone is now my 22" LBE's top stone, and cost about $25-30. Not "cheap", but... cheaper than the 19" kiln shelf that's the new surface stone ($50)
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron
Everything Voluntary

http://newtexianbrew.com - http://ronlennex.com/

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #794 on: May 19, 2010, 09:01:21 AM »
These were my latest pies... week and a half ago...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10917.0.html
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron
Everything Voluntary

http://newtexianbrew.com - http://ronlennex.com/

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #795 on: May 20, 2010, 11:24:42 AM »
You pizza freaks have me wanting to make a LBE now.  Thanks a lot!!! Gonna stop by Lowes and Sears to check out the supply of pre LBE's. 

Looked in CL's but all I see are 22" kettles.  Too big for me since I already have a dedicated grill.   I would think 18" is perfect since I have a 16" stone and rarely make a pie bigger than that. 

My hesitation in making one is that I like leoparding on the cheese and most pics I'm staring at have little to no leoparding on the cheese.  I saw that Ronzo was able to achieve that with a top mounted stone and 8 slice by covering the inside with HD foil.

What about a top mounted metal disk to lower the ceiling.  You guys with LBEs think that would work?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 11:51:33 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #796 on: May 21, 2010, 08:52:42 AM »
What about a top mounted metal disk to lower the ceiling.  You guys with LBEs think that would work?

Tranman, I think that will work.

I got my original 18" Weber on CL for $10, but I know CL is hit or miss with stuff like that.
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron
Everything Voluntary

http://newtexianbrew.com - http://ronlennex.com/

Offline scott123

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #797 on: May 21, 2010, 10:04:59 AM »
Just make sure the 'metal' disk is steel and not aluminum.  Aluminum, as has been mentioned before, will start melting in the 1200 range.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #798 on: May 21, 2010, 10:17:18 AM »
So I found an 18" weber silver?  Has a wooden handle though but owner says it's in great condition and only used for 1 season. He's asking $30 for it. Thinking of offering $20 for it. The brand new ones are $70.

There's also the 14" weber Smokey Joe that would fit a 12" stone nicely for $30 new. If I go that route, I'll call it the MBE (mini black egg). The only limiting factor is 12" pies max.   The dome ceiling on the 14" model is nice and low so wouldn't need a mod there. 

Scott, I was thinking of using 18-20g sheet metal. It seems to hold up okay inside BBQ grills but seems to have a short life span as it can rust.

Ronzo have you done any of VRs mods yet? Specifically the lazy Susan mod or increasing air flow from above?

Offline mako

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Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #799 on: May 21, 2010, 01:29:43 PM »
Could you season the sheet metal to keep it from rusting? I've been thinking about doing that with the rebar crosspieces I just picked up. (Although I can't decide yet if I'm going to use them). Just a light coating of lard or oil, let them come up to temp, and you're left with a nice coating of carbon. Works for cast iron.

...though I guess the carbon might just burn off at pizza temps.