Author Topic: Little Black Egg (Read 267456 times)

pdxsds · « **Reply #900 on:** July 25, 2010, 11:43:23 PM »

Another newbie from Portland... Thanks to all for this great thread. I've read through most of the posts, but may have missed some, and I don't see anyone who's tried the LBE with charcoal. So in a first attempt at this endeavor, I've left my 22" Weber kettle as a charcoal fired grill but otherwise modified per the accumulated recommendations here.

So I started with a 22" inch old, hand-me-down kettle, lined with HD foil, and decided to go with a 20" aluminum pizza pan ($10, amazon) as the top reflector. Drilled a 4" bolt through the lid and hung the pan, and lined the lid with foil. The pan fits snugly - see pics. Then cut a 8" x 2" vent in the lid with a Dremel - best use of this tool ever. For the supporting grate, I took the standard cook grate and cut about 5" off of one side and flipped it upside down. On top, I have a layer of "gas grill blocks" to diffuse and even out the heat (Gas Grill Company, $20, True Value). Then I have a Old Stone Oven pizza stone in a shape I've never seen before: 20.5" x 15.5", with one edge squared off to fit a 22" inch kettle with the hinged grate ($55, amazon). Unfortunately, my grill didn't have the hinged grate, so I used the Dremel to cut off 5" of the grate to provide access for adding more charcoal (unnecessarily, see below).

I wanted to get the stone temp up to 700F, and I wasn't sure how much lump hardwood charcoal to use, so I probably overdid it with 2 thick layers of blazing hot coals. At 30 minutes, the stone was at 550 and the aluminum pan was about the same. So far so good. Got the pizza's ready, using the Lehmann recipe, and by the time I slid the first one from the peel the stone was at 850+ and the pan was 750. Ack! Not unexpectedly, the bottom crust was toasted as you'll see, and the top was just done. For the second pie, I shut all the bottom vents and took the lid off to drop the temp. Couldn't get it below 800, so cooked it and got about the same results. Two hours later the stone was still at 850 with all the vents closed. Needless to say, lump charcoal will get the stone as hot as propane.

So, I need to reduce the stone temp significantly at the time of baking. The options I see are to start cooking much earlier in the rising temperature curve, reduce the amount of coals, raise the stone higher, or lower the level of the top pan. Any other thoughts?

Tampa · « **Reply #901 on:** July 26, 2010, 08:57:39 AM »

Don,

Thanks for the kind reply. I too am motivated to try things. I love that you moved the flame inside and tried one set of holes before adding another set.

I’m a big fan of the innovation in the egg team, although I’ve not built one myself. I have spent a fair amount of time messing with heat flow. You might take a quick look at my last post on rotisserie pizza grill and see the rear deflector pictures. I think this may be applicable on LBE designs.

Please share what you learn with these holes. Many will be interested (including me).

Dave

buceriasdon · « **Reply #902 on:** July 26, 2010, 01:08:15 PM »

Hi Dave, I don't think I have the search engine thingyamajig figured out,, I copied and pasted into it but just directed me back to this post from you. It might be close to the flame shield I temporarily put in mine. Could you direct me towards the post your are refering to? Thanks, Don

Quote from: Tampa on July 26, 2010, 08:57:39 AM

Don,

Thanks for the kind reply. I too am motivated to try things. I love that you moved the flame inside and tried one set of holes before adding another set.

I’m a big fan of the innovation in the egg team, although I’ve not built one myself. I have spent a fair amount of time messing with heat flow. You might take a quick look at my last post on rotisserie pizza grill and see the rear deflector pictures. I think this may be applicable on LBE designs.

Please share what you learn with these holes. Many will be interested (including me).

Dave

Tampa · « **Reply #903 on:** July 26, 2010, 02:21:50 PM »

This url should get you there: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10241.20.html

You will see that my oven is different from your oven, but I think some of the heat flow principles are the same and I was amazed at the difference a deflector made.

Given what I remember from your setup, there is a fairly large gap between the stone cooking surface and the weber sidewall (1-2" ish). If it were me, I put some vanes in that gap area similar to the ones used on a turbine or jet engine (think 747). The idea being that hot convection currents are zooming up near the stone and the vanes could create a swirl above the pie. It’s a little wacky, I know, but it makes some sense to me. Why? Because LBE designs are usually handicapped in that they require buffering/insulation on the underside of the stone (or it gets too hot) and yearn for heat above the stone. Swirling convection currents of hot air on the top would be a good thing.

I’m not an expert here, just trying to help. I’d summarize my expertise as a forum member that has made more mistakes than most people.

Dave

Villa Roma · « **Reply #904 on:** July 26, 2010, 06:41:30 PM »

Here's my latest mod. I call it the waffle iron mod. When I cranked up the heat (700+) on my whole wheat crusts the bottom would tend to get a little more toasty than I liked so I scored the stone with about one hundred grooves to limit the contact with the dough. I won't be able to road test this for a week or two. I just hope the grooves don't encourage cracking.

Get your groove on, Villa Roma

buceriasdon · « **Reply #905 on:** July 26, 2010, 06:52:31 PM »

Dave, Thank you for the link, I put it in favorites so I can refer back to it. Yes I had to open up the gap between the stone and the edge of the kettle to get more heat above the tile and to get a good burn. The gap is 1.5". What I what to do, once I figure out how, is to install some sort of a metal ring below the steel plate and the tile resting on top of it that stops the flame from burning the edges of the pie as it licks over. I could just turn down the flame of course while baking but my aim is to find a setting that will consistently bake well with a minimum of gas usage , which is something I don't know has been addressed. Actually I should mention I rather like the shield as it makes it very easy to stop the pie with a peel while turning. I am not having any problems with uneven cooking but with excessive char.
Don

Quote from: Tampa on July 26, 2010, 02:21:50 PM

This url should get you there: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10241.20.html

You will see that my oven is different from your oven, but I think some of the heat flow principles are the same and I was amazed at the difference a deflector made.

Given what I remember from your setup, there is a fairly large gap between the stone cooking surface and the weber sidewall (1-2" ish). If it were me, I put some vanes in that gap area similar to the ones used on a turbine or jet engine (think 747). The idea being that hot convection currents are zooming up near the stone and the vanes could create a swirl above the pie. It’s a little wacky, I know, but it makes some sense to me. Why? Because LBE designs are usually handicapped in that they require buffering/insulation on the underside of the stone (or it gets too hot) and yearn for heat above the stone. Swirling convection currents of hot air on the top would be a good thing.

I’m not an expert here, just trying to help. I’d summarize my expertise as a forum member that has made more mistakes than most people.

Dave

buceriasdon · « **Reply #906 on:** July 26, 2010, 06:57:52 PM »

Villa Roma, I have pondered the same thing . I look forward to your tests.
Regards, Don

buceriasdon · « **Reply #907 on:** July 26, 2010, 08:10:04 PM »

Dave, I have pondered the same thing, vortex generators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_generator

A method by which to keep the hot air moving for the longest time possible. Hmmmmmmmmmm

Quote from: Tampa on July 26, 2010, 02:21:50 PM

This url should get you there: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10241.20.html

You will see that my oven is different from your oven, but I think some of the heat flow principles are the same and I was amazed at the difference a deflector made.

Given what I remember from your setup, there is a fairly large gap between the stone cooking surface and the weber sidewall (1-2" ish). If it were me, I put some vanes in that gap area similar to the ones used on a turbine or jet engine (think 747). The idea being that hot convection currents are zooming up near the stone and the vanes could create a swirl above the pie. It’s a little wacky, I know, but it makes some sense to me. Why? Because LBE designs are usually handicapped in that they require buffering/insulation on the underside of the stone (or it gets too hot) and yearn for heat above the stone. Swirling convection currents of hot air on the top would be a good thing.

I’m not an expert here, just trying to help. I’d summarize my expertise as a forum member that has made more mistakes than most people.

Dave

Tampa · « **Reply #908 on:** July 27, 2010, 08:09:33 AM »

Roma - love the scores idea. Let us know how it works. Props to you for coming up with LBE and innovations.

Don - I wasn't really thinking about the vortex generator as in the wiki post. I don't think we have the air speed, but maybe in your setup. I was more thinking about the outer row of blades in what's shown as a "turbine" in this picture (http://www.secondchancegarage.com/articles/images/torque/converter_exploded_view.jpg). This could change the flow dynamics in your upper chamber. Of course you could always reinstall the cutout on a hinge to close the door after loading the pie, which would create a more symmetric swirl chamber. (I know, you only have a few minutes of total cook time, but given the amazing heat flow in LBEs the swirl should start quickly.)

Dave

buceriasdon · « **Reply #909 on:** July 27, 2010, 09:35:58 PM »

I would suggest cutting back on your coals. Myself, I would shoot for a temperature range that I could bake several pizzas and not feel rushed though the heat retention is poor in a kettle,but once the coals have grayed over the temps should stay fairly constant. Hope this helps and do tell us of your progress

So, I need to reduce the stone temp significantly at the time of baking. The options I see are to start cooking much earlier in the rising temperature curve, reduce the amount of coals, raise the stone higher, or lower the level of the top pan. Any other thoughts?

buceriasdon · « **Reply #910 on:** July 28, 2010, 12:04:55 PM »

Last night's pie with olive oil and more gluten added. Me like better.

norma427 · « **Reply #911 on:** July 28, 2010, 12:50:11 PM »

buceriasdon,

Your pie looks great!

Norma

pdxsds · « **Reply #912 on:** July 28, 2010, 07:30:35 PM »

Quote from: buceriasdon on July 27, 2010, 09:35:58 PM

I would suggest cutting back on your coals. Myself, I would shoot for a temperature range that I could bake several pizzas and not feel rushed though the heat retention is poor in a kettle,but once the coals have grayed over the temps should stay fairly constant. Hope this helps and do tell us of your progress

So, I need to reduce the stone temp significantly at the time of baking. The options I see are to start cooking much earlier in the rising temperature curve, reduce the amount of coals, raise the stone higher, or lower the level of the top pan. Any other thoughts?

Thanks for the feedback. I tried again with half the coals and a layer of firebrick under the stone, but this might have been overkill. The temperature curve was much slower and never got above 580. With the lid off to rotate the pizza, the temp dropped to the 300s and had a hard time getting back to 550. Needless to say, the first pizza took 4-5+ minutes and never got a good bottom crust. The second pizza was paper thin and was nearly perfect but still took too long. Next try will be with a few more coals and will just use 2 firebricks on the sides to prop the stone up a couple inches. I also dropped the top pizza pan down a couple inches with a longer bolt to get a faster top sizzle, which seemed to help. One nice thing about the foil wrap is the ash cleanup is quite easy. Tonight will experiment with making naan.

buceriasdon · « **Reply #913 on:** August 01, 2010, 08:04:52 PM »

Added foil to the bottom section. Yikes! Got way to hot, 975 degrees in 20 minutes. Turned it down as much as possible, must replace the regulator as it is difficult to control the flame without one. I also set an old grill with lava rock around the perimeter as a flame deflector, worked well, need a more permanent solution. I tried a pesto, tomato, panela cheese at 800, burnt bottom but didn't taste burnt. Quite good, sorry, no pics. I turned the flame off and waited to cook the Thai chicken, took six minutes but didn't like it as well. My guests thought the the first one had a better tasting crust. Tonight I'm trying my first sourdough. The devil is in the details...............

buceriasdon · « **Reply #914 on:** August 02, 2010, 09:49:05 PM »

A somewhat costly day, I bought a new adjustable high pressure regulator for $1010 pesos, about $85 US dollars, och!

Imported items can be sooo expensive here in Mexico. Worth the cost, much easier to control my flame. This pie was baked at 865 degrees, three minutes. I was going to do a sourdough but thought I better use this dough up in the fridge. Manana. Two friends dropped by, barely got these shots. Oh yea, I included that all important crumb shot. Homemade BBQ sauce chicken pizza with Mexican cheese.
Don

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #915 on:** August 02, 2010, 09:57:17 PM »

Nice looking pie (with crumb shot

) Buceriasdon. Your temp readings may be off a bit. Hard to believe that pie lasted 3 min at 850+ without some serious burning. Especially if you used a BF or a HG flour. If it is a true temp, you may want to lower the heat so that you get a bit more even top vs bottom heating. Nice work.

Chau

buceriasdon · « **Reply #916 on:** August 02, 2010, 10:12:28 PM »

Yes, The bottom was quite charred. Nothing wrong with my readings. My aluminum plate in the lid read 415 degrees. I am thinking about placing some spacers( washers) between the steel support plate and the tile. Manana...........

Quote from: Jackie Tran on August 02, 2010, 09:57:17 PM

Nice looking pie (with crumb shot )Bucierasdon. Your temp readings may be off a bit. Hard to believe that pie lasted 3 min at 850+ without some serious burning. Especially for a BF or a HG flour. If it is a true temp, you may want to lower the heat so that you get a bit more even top vs bottom heating. Nice work.

Chau

Essen1 · « **Reply #917 on:** August 02, 2010, 10:24:36 PM »

Quote from: buceriasdon on August 02, 2010, 10:12:28 PM

Yes, The bottom was quite charred. My aluminum plate in the lid read 415 degrees. I am thinking about placing some spacers( washers) between the steel support plate and the tile. Manana...........

Buceriasdon,

I have a feeling the problem lies with heat management. Baking a pie at 865°F for three minutes is way too long. Especially if that's the stone temperature. It shouldn't be longer than 90-120 seconds. But that's just my experience.

Also, if the top only showed 415°F, that's not hot enough, either. It sounds to me that you have a problem with air circulation. I always shoot for a somewhat balanced top heat/bottom heat ratio even though that's hard to come by sometimes...especially the top. But it's definitely doable.

Sounds like you'd need more mass in the top and with perhaps a little better air circulation and you should be good to go. Getting a regulator where you can go to the smallest flame with is essential.

VR,

Bro, you never cease to amaze me!

Grooves in the stone...that's a first. Hope it works out.

chascates · « **Reply #918 on:** August 03, 2010, 07:23:48 PM »

From a link on amazingribs.com I found this guy who makes adapters & blowers for Weber & other grills:
rocksbarbque.com
Has anyone tried anything like this to boost the temperature on a Weber conversion? it looks like it might help but I'm too new at this to have a real clue.

buceriasdon · « **Reply #919 on:** August 03, 2010, 08:08:25 PM »

I have thought of such a modification myself. Not to get more heat. With the high pressure burner being used, heat is no problem. I can get to 1000 degrees in under a half an hour. At least not to me it isn't. If in some way a blower can be utilized to get EVEN heat I would look into it. Like a convection oven. Still I think properly executed venting is the answer to even heat on the stone and the air above it. I willl of course look at your link and thanks for posting it.
Regards, Don

Quote from: chascates on August 03, 2010, 07:23:48 PM

From a link on amazingribs.com I found this guy who makes adapters & blowers for Weber & other grills:
rocksbarbque.com
Has anyone tried anything like this to boost the temperature on a Weber conversion? it looks like it might help but I'm too new at this to have a real clue.