Author Topic: Little Black Egg  (Read 399376 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Randy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2021
  • Age: 68
  • Pizza, a great Lycopene source
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2007, 06:57:52 AM »
High temp silicone will not hold up to those kind of temps Villa.
Stove gasket might work, check you ACE hardware for high temp solutions.  Another source for a vent pipe is your local muffler place.

Randy
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 07:33:25 AM by Randy »


Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2007, 07:15:09 AM »
High temp silicone will not hold up to those kind of temps Villa.
Stove gasket mite work, check you ACE hardware for high temp solutions.  Another source for a vent pipe is your local muffler place.

Randy

Thanks for the tip Randy. I laid down a bead of RTV about an hour ago so I guess I'll watch it go up in smoke the next time I fire up. The outside of the oven doesn't get too hot so maybe it'll last for awhile.

      Villa Roma
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 07:36:27 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline Y-TOWN

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 220
Re: Little Black Egg - Ohio model
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2007, 10:20:36 AM »
Rkos.....Now you're cooking with gas, bro! It takes a few times to get the hang of it.

Maybe next time you cook, you could include some pic of your pies. We'd love to see them!

How do you like the fibrament stone? Is that an aluminum perforated pizza pan on the bottom? Since my last pizza started to burn at 800+ degrees, I'm thinking of putting a perforated pan under my stones to see if I can get a sub 2 minute pie sans the excess charring on the bottom.

       Villa Roma


The gas grill fibrament stone comes with a solid light aluminum alloy pan that MUST be used with it on the grill. The first time I used the stone it picked up a small crack - I called the company and had a long conversation with whom I believe was the owner. He said few, if any, of the stones crack and to keep using mine to see if the crack expanded and at anytime I could call and he'd replace the stone for me (nice guy - that is a pizza maker as well). He did tell me the grill pan for the stone tops out at about 1200* but in tests not using the aluminum under pan the stone has gone 1500* with no problems. He also told me about a guy that actually burned a hole in the underpan using a green egg past 1300* The only thing we could figure out was the guy was using some sort of an 0-2 injector to get that heat.

For the $63 to get that large of a stone which will not break into two pieces (has multiple fiber mats, kind of like rebar in concrete inlaid in it) and has great after purchase service and support (made in Mich. I believe), I consider it a good deal for my LBE as I've broken numerous thinner stones that were in the $15 to $20 range and are now in the trash.

The perforated pan on the bottom of the pie will work to slow the bottom of the pies char time down. I've done it for a few years now on my conventional gas grill with a stone. I put the pie in and wait until the top is 90% brown to my liking and then pull the pan off with a pair of channel locks, shake the pan and finish the pie directly on the stone in about 60 seconds or less (probably at 600*'s as I have never checked. Worked well for me, but like the LBE you need a little practice to get consistent results.


PS - the fibrament stone fellow and I talked about a steam modification to the grill. He said there are numerous small steam deals on the internet and the steam was only helpful to the baking process at the begining of the process - I'm starting to think of a small odd-shaped container that would hold only a few onces of water which could be placed on the stone like your wood chip at the beginning of the cooking process.

Please post the results of the can vent - I'm ready to modify mine if that works

Regards,

« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 10:27:21 AM by Rkos »

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2007, 11:30:51 AM »
Rkos....I'll be making pizza next weekend and I'll post the results. It'll most likely be 25% whole grains so I won't have the temp cranked up like I had with the Neapolitan. I think around 700* should work fine.

I placed a perforated pizza pan under the two 16" stones. I'll see what that does for the bottom crust.

For water injection, try forming some HD foil into the shape of a small reservoir and pressing it between the stone and the grill. Poke a small hole or two in it with a toothpick. Pour water in it when you load your pizza and it will drip down the side creating steam.

       Villa Roma



« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 11:32:34 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline Y-TOWN

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 220
Little Black Egg
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2007, 12:44:06 PM »
Villa Roma,

Here is today's pizza.

I got the rice cereal, ground it and mixed it with about 40% baking flour. I had to have 1/4# spread on the peel and dusted on the bottom of the skin. It was sliding fine during the assembly process.

Got to the LBE and the pizza was stuck. I had to get a 16" perforated pizza pan and scrape the pie from the peal and put the pie in the LBE in my perforated pan on top of the stone. I make a high hydration dough and it appears any type of dusting is absorbed by the skin bottom. From now on I'm just going to cook the pie on the perforated disk on the stone. It seems to work better for me.

Here are the results - also, you said the LBE doesn't like any kind of breeze. Got about a 10 mile side wind just when I started to cook. The photo's below are the tin foil droplets that melted and hit the concrete below the grill. My opening is only 9", I think I'll have to open it to 12" to compensate for any wind.

Regards,

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2007, 01:30:42 PM »
Rkos....Looks like a very respectable pizza. Have you tried using a preferment or a starter? Either one will make a big difference over straight yeast. I also like to use some kind of stone ground whole grains like rye or wheat. I make my starter with rye flour and it is really active so I don't have to use yeast.

Do you have a mixer or did you knead the dough by hand?

The hole in the bottom of my Weber is 11 1/2" and I've never had the foil melt. I think the flames from the burner were making contact with the foil just above it causing the melt down. I hope you were wearing shoes!

       Villa Roma
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 01:33:16 PM by Villa Roma »

Offline Boy Hits Car

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 147
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2007, 03:11:15 PM »
Here are my results from today...overall a tremendous improvement over the first batch of pizzas.  I got much more color on the top crust as well as pretty good charring on both pizzas.  The bottom had some good and bad charring.  Some parts of the pizza had good bottom charring and other parts were a tad burned; but acceptable.  Actually, the burnt parts were still less burnt than the pizza I had at Totonno's in Brooklyn.

Just to note, turning the pizzas during the bake seems to really helps cook the pizzas more evenly.  When I put the pizzas on, the bottom stone read about 700 degrees and the top stone read 665 degrees.  Much happier with this set of pizzas; still some tweaking to work on. 

EDIT:  Just wanted to add the dough formulation I used:
Flour (100%)
Water (62%)
IDY (.25%)
Salt (2%)
TF = 0.09

I made two 12" doughs and cold fermented for 64 hours.

Enjoy the pics!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 03:34:55 PM by Boy Hits Car »

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2007, 12:29:11 AM »
Mike.....Looks good, especially the first pizza where there are signs of some nice charring on one side. You're really zeroing in on greatness. My LBE cooks somewhat uneven also and I'm wondering if it's because of the vent pulling hot air over the stone creating a hot spot. Next time I'm going to try rotating the lid 180 degrees to see if the hotspot shifts. I'm still thinking about a Rolling Stone mod. If I was back in the states where there are massive hardware stores, it would be easy. It's not like that here in Europe.

I picked up some cake flour and I'm going to experiment with it. It's 6% protein so I'll cut it with some AP flour to try to simulate a Caputo flour. A 50/50 blend should yield about 8%. My experience has been that high gluten flours and long fermentation periods result in a leathery, almost plastic skin on the crust, especially after it cools off. I'm shooting for that leopard spot look.

How long did it take for your pizzas to cook? Also, what kind of flour did you use? I think if you bump up the hydration, you'll find it makes a big improvement. When I mix my dough I use cold water of about 40 degrees. When I'm done mixing the dough, it's right at room temp of 68 degrees. The cold water also makes for a stiffer dough initially, which allows you to use the higher hydration and still form a ball in the mixer. This really helps with the gluten development with low gluten flour. The higher hydration is also less likely to burn. Another thing to try is either a preferment or some type of starter.

     Villa Roma
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 01:57:11 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline Y-TOWN

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 220
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2007, 01:00:37 AM »
Rkos....Looks like a very respectable pizza. Have you tried using a preferment or a starter? Either one will make a big difference over straight yeast. I also like to use some kind of stone ground whole grains like rye or wheat. I make my starter with rye flour and it is really active so I don't have to use yeast.

Do you have a mixer or did you knead the dough by hand?

The hole in the bottom of my Weber is 11 1/2" and I've never had the foil melt. I think the flames from the burner were making contact with the foil just above it causing the melt down. I hope you were wearing shoes!

       Villa Roma




I use a mixer with 8 cups of flour at a time, no oil and approx. 4 tablespoons of sugar with some salt. The minimum is ususally a 24 hour rise in the refrigerator. - I use an instant fast rise yeast purchased in the typical 3 pack at the supermarket - not a lot of sophistication in the dough making process at our house, but I get solid, reliable results every time with this recipe and it only takes me about 15 minutes total to make and bag 4 individual bags for the refrigerator.

The aluminum droplets on the concrete were not from the foil but rather the light aluminum pan which came with the fibrament stone for cooking on a gas grill. After the grill cooled off I was cleaning it and found an approximate 7" circular hole burned through the underpan.

The fibrament factory fellow I recently talked with said the aluminum pan which came with the stone was good to 1200*F - the LBE must have gotten hotter than that under the stone or his calculations are off. The good news is the small hairline crack in the stone did not expand any more.

I going to look for a heavier aluminum or light steel pan to put the stone in for the baking process when the LBG is used.

BTW - the pizza was SUPER - the bottom picture was blurred, but it was a beautiful brown, with a slight char, just the way we like them at our place. Had I used a timer and not lifted the top of the LBE off 4 or 5 times during the baking process I'm confident the top would have been a little darker as well.

I'll try again at lunch tommorrow


Offline Boy Hits Car

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 147
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2007, 01:41:38 AM »
Mike.....Looks good, especially the first pizza where there are signs of some nice charring on one side. You're really zeroing in on greatness. My LBE cooks somewhat uneven also and I'm wondering if it's because of the vent pulling hot air over the stone creating a hot spot. Next time I'm going to try rotating the lid 180 degrees to see if the hotspot shifts. I'm still thinking about a rotating stone mod. If I was back in the states where there are massive hardware stores, it would be easy. It's not like that here in Europe.

I picked up some cake flour and I'm going to experiment with it. It's 6% protein so I'll cut it with some AP flour to try to simulate a Caputo flour. A 50/50 blend should yield about 8%. My experience has been that high gluten flours and long fermentation periods result in a leathery, almost plastic skin on the crust, especially after it cools off. I'm shooting for that leopard spot look.

How long did it take for your pizzas to cook? Also, what kind of flour did you use? I think if you bump up the hydration, you'll find it makes a big improvement. When I mix my dough I use cold water of about 40 degrees. When I'm done mixing the dough, it's right at room temp of 68 degrees. The cold water also makes for a stiffer dough initially, which allows you to use the higher hydration and still form a ball in the mixer. This really helps with the gluten development with low gluten flour. The higher hydration is also less likely to burn. Another thing to try is either a preferment or some type of starter.

     Villa Roma

Villa Roma,

I used King Aurthur bread flour and mixed in a similar manner as you with 37 degree water and a finished dough of around 72 degrees.  Both pizzas cooked for exactly 3 minutes.  I was planning to use a mix of bread flour and Caputo 00 next weekend.  Something in the line of 70% Caputo to 30% bread flour, with 65% hydration, salt and yeast; no oil or sugar. 

I also think the vent is making a hot spot on one side of the LBE.  That is a great idea about rotating the lid; that way you don't have to allow any heat to escape when lifting it to rotate the pizza.

- Mike

Offline toddster63

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 233
  • Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2007, 02:10:32 AM »
The LBE pies are looking good, guys... That leopard spot charring is more than a LITTLE exciting, Mike!

Rkos--that pie looks mighty tasty--how long did it cook for? Also, what kind of flour did you use for that dough? Sorry to hear about your Fibrament stone pan melting, but think of it this way--I won't be bothering to order a pan from Mark for my Fibrament stone, I'll just put some tiles under it, like Villa Roma has done. So your loss is helpful to others and serves a positive purpose...! The Fibrament stones are really great, though, aren't they? I really like mine.

Villa Roma, it'll be interesting to see how the new bigger vent works out with your bake this weekend. How would you do a rotating stone mod....?
(P.S. I got a new KA 600 today with a spiral dough hook! Time to knead some dough!)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 02:14:45 AM by toddster63 »

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2007, 05:50:12 AM »
Toddster63.....Congratulations on your purchase of your KA mixer. I think you'll really like the spiral dough hook.

Here's a conceptual diagram of the Rolling Stone mod. There are three small pulleys located 120 degrees apart attached to the inside of the Weber. Two of the pulleys will be free wheeling while one will be driven by a rotisserie motor. The existing cooking grate would be driven by the the pulleys. You could use just a crank handle instead of the motor if you wanted to keep it simple.

Three pulleys and a crank handle and it's spin city!

        Villa Roma
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 01:56:23 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2007, 06:58:27 AM »
Mike....I've never tried Caputo flour. I understand that there are at least 2 types. Which type do you use and is it worth all the hype? I'm thinking of ordering some and like to know if it makes that big of a difference.

Also, how long did you knead your dough and on what speed?

      Villa Roma
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 08:46:11 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline Y-TOWN

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 220
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2007, 09:31:34 AM »


Rkos--that pie looks mighty tasty--how long did it cook for? Also, what kind of flour did you use for that dough? Sorry to hear about your Fibrament stone pan melting, but think of it this way--I won't be bothering to order a pan from Mark for my Fibrament stone, I'll just put some tiles under it, like Villa Roma has done. So your loss is helpful to others and serves a positive purpose...! The Fibrament stones are really great, though, aren't they? I really like mine.

toddster63,

I can't find unglazed tiles in this area - lord knows I've looked. Wish I wouldn't have trashed those broken stones, they would have worked well for bottom flame buffers.

I really like the Fibrament stone but need to go to our local restaurant supply store and find a new bottom for it before I use it again. I won't call Mark because it's evident the pan those folks send with the 3/4" stone won't work on the LBE.

The flour I use is Pillsbury Bread flour - it gives me more oven spring than KA bread flour, Harvest King, or other supermarket flours I've used - for the dough recipe I use the Pillsbury bread flour just seems to work better. The bake time on the pie shown in the photo's was a little under 5 minutes, but again that was with me removing the lid to look at the top of the pie excessively.

Here is a photo of my factory pan -
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 09:58:47 AM by Rkos »

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2007, 09:59:56 AM »
Rkos.....Bummer on the lava flow, but look at the bright side, at least it didn't tear up your stone. I'll be using an aluminum pan also so I hope they used a higher grade aluminum on it, we'll see. You can bet I'll be wearing boots, just in case.

I have a theory why Pills flour works better than the others. They use vitamin C and the others don't. For an uplifting experience, try adding some C to any flour and you'll be pleasantly surprised. It's like Viagra for your pizza! I just grind up a small portion of a regular C tablet. You don't need much, just 20 PPM. For 800 grams of flour that would be 16 mg. It's supposed to be a dough conditioner similar in action to bromate.

     Villa Roma
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 11:07:39 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2007, 11:02:52 AM »
Rkos....Have you considered using HD aluminum foil in lieu of your now defunct pan? You may have to use several layers and replace it every now and then but I think this will work just fine.

    Villa Roma
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 12:07:28 PM by Villa Roma »

Offline Y-TOWN

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 220
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2007, 11:15:47 AM »
Rkos....Have you considered using HD aluminum foil in lieu of you now defunct pan? You may have to try several layers but I think this will work just fine.

    Villa Roma


Villa Roma,

Actually, I didn't think about that  :-[- several layers of HD tin foil would probably work well as a direct flame buffer - sure would be a lot less $ than another pan and I've got an extra roll here from when I covered the interior of my LBE.

Thanks for the idea !!

Regards,


Offline Boy Hits Car

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 147
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2007, 11:31:58 AM »
Mike....I've never tried Caputo flour. I understand that there are at least 2 types. Which type do you use and is it worth all the hype? I'm thinking of ordering some and like to know if it makes that big of a difference.

Also, how long did you knead your dough and on what speed?

      Villa Roma

Villa Roma,

I have the Caputo 00 Pizzeria version from PennMac: http://www.pennmac.com/items/3202.  I believe the other Caputo type is much lower in protein then the Pizzeria version I have.

I used it with a mixture of All Trumps High Gluten Flour when I was trying to reverse engineer a Difara's Square pizza.  Here is the thread about that: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,504.msg39649.html#msg39649

Those square pizzas took awhile to brown using my regular oven set at 550 degrees.  I'll have a more definitive opinion on the Caputo 00 next week when I cook a few pizzas with it in the LBE.  I'm actually going to make three pies next week.  One with 100% Caputo, one with 75%/25% Caputo/Bread and one with 75%/25% Bread/Caputo.

As far as mixing, I don't have spiral hook for my KA mixer so I use the paddle attachment with all the ingredients and 75% flour and mix for a few minutes on speed 1 then add the rest of the flour with the dough hook and knead for 2 minutes on speed 2.  I then knead by hand for a minute and place in the fridge.

-Mike
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 11:35:24 AM by Boy Hits Car »

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2007, 01:20:19 PM »
Mike....Thanks for the update on the Caputo Pizzeria flour. I checked and the protein level is 11.5-12.5 percent. Looks like it's about midway between AP and strong bread flour.

Next weekend should be a feast for the eyes as well as the stomach with you, me and hopefully Rkos cooking pizza. I'm really anxious to see the results of your Caputo threesome.

    Villa Roma

Offline Randy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2021
  • Age: 68
  • Pizza, a great Lycopene source
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2007, 01:40:01 PM »
Drop by your local metal fabricator shop and they can cut you a steel plate.  Or go to Lowe's and find the steel section and but a piece of sheet metal and a pair of hand shears and cut your own.  Do not get galvanished

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2007, 05:34:30 AM »
I made pizza yesterday and I put an aluminum pan under the stones and like Rkos, I had a melt down. :o The molten aluminum spilled onto the burner partially clogging it so I had to pick the slag out of the burner after it cooled. I cut a 6" round hole in the pan so if it melts again it hopefully won't fall onto the burner.

        Villa Roma

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2007, 06:10:12 AM »
Here's some pics of the pizza I made this weekend. This was 25% whole grain (10% rye, 15% whole wheat) with no fat or sugar. The balance of the flour was GM all purpose. Cooked at 675 degrees for just under 3 minutes. It came out good but not great. Seems a little fat, sugar and maybe milk makes a big difference in the lightness of the crust, as well as the taste, at least with whole grains.

The vent mod worked great and is a keeper. The LBE heated up quicker and I was able to maintain 675 degrees at around medium throttle. The RTV around the base of the vent survived without burning but I didn't crank the heat up this time. I tried rotating the lid as opposed to the pizza but there is a hot spot so that did not work. I'm going to have to rotate the pizza until I can get the Rolling Stones mod worked out. No biggie, most ovens have a hot spot which necessitates the need to turn the pizza.

The aluminum pan on the bottom of the stones is also a keeper. The outside of the stone has a tendency to heat up higher than the center and the pan evens this out real well. It also cradles the stones better than the grate which has sagged some with the 800+ degree heat that I used last time.

      Villa Roma
« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 09:22:49 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline Randy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2021
  • Age: 68
  • Pizza, a great Lycopene source
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2007, 07:22:03 AM »
Melting aluminum fumes and pizza may not be such a good idea although aluminum/Alzheimer's link remains unproven I wonder if it is worth the risk.  You may find a steel disk to actually give you better results since the aluminum is reflecting some of the heat.

Randy

Offline Villa Roma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 498
  • Location: Edmond, Ok
  • In search of the ever elusive leopard spots!
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2007, 08:32:58 AM »
Melting aluminum fumes and pizza may not be such a good idea although aluminum/Alzheimer's link remains unproven I wonder if it is worth the risk.  You may find a steel disk to actually give you better results since the aluminum is reflecting some of the heat.

Randy

In order to create aluminum fumes it must first be vaporized. Aluminum melts at 660 degrees Celsius (1220 F) and boils at 2518 degrees Celsius (4564 F). This propane burner will not get anywhere near 4564 F so we should be OK.

Thanks for your concern.....Villa Roma
« Last Edit: August 26, 2007, 09:07:27 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline Randy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2021
  • Age: 68
  • Pizza, a great Lycopene source
Re: Little Black Egg
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2007, 11:07:12 AM »
No problem, not trying to be critical, just helpful.  The older you get the more people you know with this devastating disease and it makes you cautious.

Randy


 

pizzapan