Author Topic: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!  (Read 14148 times)

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Offline johnrbek

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Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« on: March 08, 2007, 04:57:35 PM »
Watch out what you say over there guys.. James may not like it...   :-X

I was just banned for something I said in this thread over there: 
http://www.fornobravo.com/forum/f8/splits-hearth-1645.html

It's a shame because it's a great forum for those of us who want to build italian pizza ovens.  The problem is, it's not an independent medium...  It seems that James' oven business drives the format of the forum and that creates a conflict between he and those of us who would explore a more progressive approach... Low dome neapolitan style ovens, etc...

Not really looking to start a discussion on this, just thought the folks that traverse both sites would be interested...

JB


Offline kiwipete

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2007, 09:26:03 PM »
Hi John,

I have to say that I am really surprised about that..  ??? I've found James to be a very reasonable guy who helps people even if they aren't customers of his..

I've read that thread and I didn't think you said anything untoward or inflammatory...

We're you giving any reason for the banning..??

(I'm sorta thinking that maybe there is some sort of misunderstanding going on..)

I have built a "lowish" dome oven too and was given plenty of help..



Offline Peteg

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2007, 11:43:46 PM »

John, Sorry to here about the banning thing.  That's unfortunate.  I've been following your progress with great interest and can only hope that you will keep us up to date with your project on this forum or on your website.  If I remember correctly, I believe you are building a 42" diameter with a  14" ceiling.  That's just a little above marco's recommendation of H=D/3.4.  What made you decide to go with the 14" as opposed to 12.35" for the ceiling height.  I thought that 12.35 seemed a little low as well but I'm just curious if you know something I don't.  Hope all is going well with the oven project.  Peteg

Offline johnrbek

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2007, 02:57:06 PM »
Peteg,

Just saw your post... the thing with James has actually been worked out.  I won't go into details unless you are interested via email or pm.  I certainly will keep the group up to date on the oven progress..  Last week I was waiting on a bunch of materials to arrive (firebrick, castable, insualtion, wet tile saw, etc) and unfortunately this week I've been pretty slammed with work, so I haven't had a chance to work on it.. I've already laid down insblok 19 insulation in 2 layers cut to size on my hearth slab and I'm ready to begin the dome.. Hopefully this weekend.  In any event, I'm not going to rush through it.. I'm going to take my time in hopes it will come out top notch.

With regard to the 14" ceiling, that's still a little bit up in the air, though I am leaning toward the 14" dome.  The thing that makes it tough is the lack of solid information.. we're blazing a trail here man!  We got the D/3.4 data point from Marco, but I've chatted with someone else (can't remember who at the moment) who said that he was referring to the 47" oven at the time and if you maintain the same relationship in a 42" dome it would be up around 14".   Who knows what is correct?  Actually, we do know who, they'd just prefer to keep it a mystery.  No offense to them.. I'd do the same thing in their shoes.

I've even cruised the italian web site, www.pizza.it, in search of data points, and come up with very little... #1, I don't read italian so it is a challenge to understand using a crappy online translator, but beyond that, there's even debate over there... The oven project shown in the images that Marco has shared (the one with the sand in the dome and the dome half way constructed) was done by a guy with the site id of "Vincenzone"... when he posted his pics on the their forum a couple of guys jumped on him for it being "too low" and that it would fire inefficiently.. he had to defend himself and Marco jumped to his side and what not, but it just goes to show you... I emailed a few of the guys on www.pizza.it in machine translated italian  ;D and only received one reply and he didn't have that data I was looking for... Vincenzone is the guy to talk to.. he built one a couple years ago to these dimensions, but there's no recent activity from him on the site and his email link is dead...

So, even over there, there's little data on exactly what the dimensions should be...   In the end, my justification for going with a 14" height on a 42" ID, is that Marco's statement that the door should be 22cm x 44cm, pegs the door height at 8.67" inches.. the commonly accepted ideal ratio of internal height to door height of 62% would peg the internal height at 13.98 inches.  So, I"m rounding my door dimensions to 9" x 18" and the internal height to 14".. which just up slightly from the calc's above... With that height as well, I can fit a few more things in their that I might not have been able to with a 12.5" internal height.. and at the end of the day (at least today anyway), who knows if the 12.5" is even correct... No one will step up to the plate and give us a confirmation.   In the end though, it'll all flush out... a few of us will build these and figure out the right dimensions..

As you can see, I"m happy to talk about it... any plans on your side to build one??

BTW, if anyone tracks down Vincenzo over in Italy, let me know.. he's probably the best guy to talk to on this (from an amateur perspective anyway).

Later,

JB

Offline Peteg

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2007, 10:58:35 PM »
JB,
    Glad to hear that you're back in good standing on forno bravo.  I appreciate all of your input on your project as it advances.  I am planning on building a brick oven at some point this summer.  I've got a couple of other projects before the oven but I'm hoping to begin in June or July.  My design is very close to yours at this point but as you say, we're kind of blazing our own path.  Marco and a number of others have given some great advice on what the basic dimensions should be but there's still allot of ambiguity about the specific details.  What I am still up in the air about is the vent design and the opening.  In regards to the opening, every Neapolitan oven that I've seen pictures of, shows the outside of the oven roughly 4-6" away from the inside of the hearth.  What confuses me about that is that there would be no room for insulation at the front of the hearth.  Of course it's easy to get around this with a archway that's about a foot long but most Neapolitan ovens appear not to have this archway.  Just curious how your dealing with this.  Peteg

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2007, 05:31:39 AM »
Just a quick note following few PM I received about the oven building instruction that I have posted in the past.

My post was addressed to "made it yourself" forum members that would have otherwise built an oven that would have not been very useful to bake pizza. With that in mind I opened a post with few pointers (which I had already used with Italian home builders) to make a good approximation, which was better then a high dome/barrel or coal oven that people were talking about at the time. My assumptions was that it would be better for someone to build better approximation to a pizza oven then the ones they were talking at the time and were available elsewere on the net. I had also assumed that people could clearly understand that these suggestion were only an approximation and not a blueprint.

The formula h=d/3.4 for instance is a close approximation to the dimension found in Neapolitan ovens, but IT DOESN'T provide the exact H of authentic Neapolitan oven.  Among all the information published, the above formula came closer to provide an H value that approximate the Neapolitan ones. That formula was published in a book and has since been reported on the net on http://www.fuocoelegna.it/costruzione.php.

So, with the above in mind, it doesn't really matter if the vent is not perfect, the dome shape neither etc, as far as someone deciding to do a DIY job on his oven, could have some pointers to build a better approximation of a pizza oven.

That is all. Again, I firmly believe that a 100% authentic Neapolitan oven, the one that could really do the job, can only be built by 2 families.

Thus, enjoy your project and do not stress yourself too much on details that won't have a significant impact on the end results. I can assure you that even in Naples there are bricklayers (not Master Oven builders) building "replica" that have all the right dimensions and some time materials ans still do not cook properly....

Ciao and good luck

Offline Peteg

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2007, 08:40:57 AM »
Marco,
   Thanks for the input.  I was hoping that you would respond to this topic at some point since you are clearly the resident expert on Neapolitan ovens.  I agree with you that a 100% authentic Neapolitan pizza oven can only be made with Neapolitan materials by the families that you have mentioned.  As I have no intentions of opening a pizzeria with this oven I’ll settle for about 75% authentic.  I think that’s one of the reasons that JB and I are trying to be so exact with the dimensions, because we don’t have access to Neapolitan fire brick, tufa, etc…  One thing that we can control is the shape so we may as well get that as close to the real thing as possible.  One of my few remaining questions has to do with the vent.  In one of your previous posts, I believe you mentioned the vent should be in the shape of a “half sphere” close to the arch.  Does the following diagram represent what you were trying to convey or would the sphere need to be reversed?  Not sure what the reason for the sphere is, but again, just trying to get as close as possible.  Thanks for your help so far.  Peteg

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2007, 09:08:00 AM »
I’ll settle for about 75% authentic.  I think that’s one of the reasons that JB and I are trying to be so exact with the dimensions, because we don’t have access to Neapolitan fire brick, tufa, etc…  One thing that we can control is the shape ....
 Peteg


Peteg,

That is where you are wrong. If you replicate 100% of the shape with other materials and with different building techniques, you could have a worst result then building an approximation that has some principles of a Neapolitan pizza oven. My advise is : Do not try to waste your time into this details, follow the few principle that I have advise you on and you should have a nice oven for your scope. Anything else is simply unrealistic. I believe David or someone else has incorporated some of the principles into his design.

On the vent issue: Did I say the vent needs to be a semisphere or did I say the mouth/opening needs to be a semisphere? I think I was referring to the mouth opening (and if I used the word vent, I apologize).

I am not here trying to give any more advice that what already posted, just trying to point out that there are things worth spending time on and things that are not worth the return. If someone want to self build a wood oven then in my opinion is worth considering what I have posted in the past and incorporating it in their design, however I am not suggesting anyone to build an exact replica because it won't work. You have to trust me on this.

I am sorry if I cannot be of any further help.

Ciao

Offline Peteg

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2007, 02:46:11 PM »
Marco,
         You have given us some good principles to incorporate and I greatly appreciate that.  It will be some time before I break ground on this project but I will post pictures of the oven and pizza when it is completed.  Time will tell how it turns out but it seems to me that something will be better than nothing.  If nothing else, I'll be able to roast a marshmellow really, really fast.  Peteg

Offline johnrbek

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2007, 10:32:51 PM »
Peteg, Marco...

Peteg, Marco is correct.. the half sphere dimension of 22x44cm was the description of the oven opening, not the vent.  Other than the vent size (35cm at the landing and 25cm top to bottom over dome) and a small diagram, a description of the vent and how it is fashioned over the dome of the oven has never been explained.  I have spoken with David recently and he used stainless steel chimney pipe to vent his oven.  He is the original trail blazer (if you will...) here in the states and learned alot in his build.  He's available here on the forum... 

Marco, it was a pleasure to hear from you on this thread.  I understand that you do not want to get too involved in these discussions, so it was quite a surprise to see your post.  It's been a long time since you came in with some details on neapolitan oven design and we all appreciate you input. Thanks again!

Everyone, Marco's link is in Italian.. I'd like to get a piece of that translated by someone who knows italian... Marco I understand you don't want to get too involved in this, so don't feel obligated... If anyone out there speaks italian and can translate the following properly it would be immensely appreciated... (PLEASE folks don't post an automated translation from a web tool... I can do that... they don't work very well...)  Here's the detail:

"La costruzione del forno inizia con la base d'appoggio che noi consigliamo di farla più ampia del diametro del forno di almeno 15 - 20 cm anche per poter disporre di un piano d'appoggio sempre utile e alta circa 1,2 metri da terra.

Sopra la base va steso un piano di mattonelle e tra la base e le mattonelle occorre mettere uno spesso strato di materiale isolante come argilla espansa o vermiculite, il tutto tenuto insieme da cemento refrattario e sabbia.   
E' importante che il piano del forno sia perfettamente orizzontale per poter cuocere con facilità anche cibi inizialmente liquidi come la farinata.

A questo punto occorre costruire la volta. Le dimensioni dipendono dalla circonferenza del forno alla base e dalla altezza della volta. L'altezza della volta alla sommità interna si ricava con la formula:
H = d/3,4 dove H è l'altezza della volta e d è il diametro del forno in centimetri. Comunque l'altezza della volta non deve mai scendere sotto i 25-30 cm. Per esempio in un forno da 110 cm di diametro, l'altezza della volta sarà di 40 cm circa.
Bisogna fare in modo che il centro della base del forno si avvicini al fuoco della volta che in genere è un paraboloide, in modo da concentrare la riflessione del calore della volta sul piano di cottura. 

Per costruire la volta si parte facendo una base di sabbia umida o di terra ben compatta delle dimensioni volute, da sagomare a forma di paraboloide, (il segreto sta proprio nel riuscire a sagomare opportunamente la cupola di sabbia, è un po' come giocare a costruire i casteli di sabbia al mare) sulla quale si appoggeranno i mattoni della volta di piatto, tenuti insieme con malta cementizia refrattaria oppure con un impasto di argilla mescolata a poca sabbia. I mattoni vanno sistemati sfalsati partendo dal basso a salire in modo da seguire la curvatura della sabbia. Una volta che la struttura è completata, indurita e assestata si provvederà a rimuovere la sabbia di sostegno dall'interno.

Le dimensioni della bocca dipendono anch'esse dal diametro del forno, da cosa si intende cucinare, e dalla dimensioni dei tegami che si vuole inserire. Un forno con un diametro di 120 cm. dovrebbe avere la base della bocca di almeno 50 cm. e una altezza di 28 cm. Anche la forma della bocca è influenzata dalla destinazione che si intende dare al forno. I forni destinati alla cottura del pane e della pizza preferiscono bocche a forma di trapezio isoscele, ma anche rettangolari, mentre i forni destinati alla cottura di cibi come dolci e farinate preferiscono l'apertura a forma di semicerchio leggermente schiacciato al centro.

Terminata la costruzione della volta occorre ricoprirla di materiale isolante che trattenga il calore. Per fare questo va bene uno strato di argilla espansa spesso circa 12 o 15 cm. Si puo' anche usare della vermiculite. Si ricopre poi il tutto con uno strato di mattoni o altro materiale con funzione estetica e decorativa.

La canna fumaria. La sua costruzione inizia prevedendo una piccola cappa fumi da posizionare tra la volta e la bocca del forno o di lato e sulla quale si costruisce la vera e propria canna fumaria. Valgono le regole viste per i camini e le stufe. Sono da preferire canne fumarie coibentate e di sezione circolare. Il diametro della canna fumaria, indicativamente, si può ricavare dalla tabella sottostante, ricordando che il tiraggio è direttamente proporzionale all'altezza della canna fumaria."

Regards,

JB



Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2007, 08:33:57 AM »
John,

I hope someone will jump in to help you.

Just for the purpose of not creating other misunderstanding, that website refer to the construction of general woodburning oven, a bit like the one someone call tuscan or bread oven. The formula in that website gives you a number, but then the author goes to give some example of different d:h ratios....

Again good pointers but not to take it for absolute truth.. He said for example an oven of d 110cm will have a dome h of 40cm...

Ciao and good luck

Offline David

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2007, 09:20:26 AM »
Hi John,
I was just surfing the web and came across this "How to build your own Neapolitan Oven " website,which I assume is yours?

http://www.fornonapoletano.com

Is it not complete yet, as I sent payment by Paypal but when I downloaded the PDF file there were no attachments?
I was hoping that it may have some more info not found here or on the Forno Bravo site that might be helpfull in any future project.
regards,
David
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Offline pcampbell

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2007, 10:25:33 AM »
David... I am confused because the "how to build an oven" PDF is free.  You basically place an order and a few hours or days later they send you a link via e-mail to download it.    I don't think John has any affiliation with Forno Bravo.   I actually just downloaded the PDF myself and would offer it to you, but I believe the proper way to get it is through Forno... considering they are offering quite a bit of valuable information for free.

EDIT: Sorry !!! I was thinking of http://www.fornobravo.com/store/Instruction-Manuals-e-Books-p-1-c-260.html (which you might also find helpful).  I guess John's is another guide I should check into myself!!!

« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 10:38:50 AM by pcampbell »
Patrick

Offline David

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2007, 08:11:26 AM »
No,I built my own oven basically following the generous free info from FB .
John had contacted me afterwards asking my opinions on venting / ovens etc.
The Fornonapoletano.com  (John Brek ) website is selling a manual /cd/downloads  it appears.
David
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Offline johnrbek

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2007, 05:55:51 PM »
David,

Long time... just saw you're post... Yep, you are correct, I did put together a package for download, but I'm still in the final stages of cleaning it up and getting the web site and delivery mechanism functioning... It's currently just in testing...

As you know, there isn't a great deal of information out there on the specifics of building a low dome oven.  And, much of what is out there is rather cryptic.  I spent a great deal of time researching the concept, interviewing professional oven builders and advanced amatuers (like yourself).  Early on, I decided I would document my journey and publish it for the benefit of others...

I know, I know... many will say... "why buy your plans, when I can go get them for free from Forno Bravo"... Yes, you can get them from Forno Bravo, but the book I've written is specific to the Neapolitan low dome oven and it's eccentricities... If you go by the Forno Bravo plans alone and you're looking to build a Neapolitan style oven, you're going to be missing something...

Beyond that, this is a large project and I can tell you that I have every book out there on building a brick oven: The Breadbuilders, Russell Jeavon's book, The Forgotten Art.. book, Kiko Denzer's book, and so on...    All of them were interesting and I took something from each of them...   I can't tell you how many times I picked up each one of these at some point over the last few years and re-read parts of it...  Fun stuff.. Looking forward to building your oven.  There's always room for another enthusiast's journey through the process....

I also wanted to say...  after having built one.. the low dome concept works.  My oven has a 14" internal height and roughly follows Marco's dimensions...  When I get the oven good and hot, I can push the coals over to the side and throw a piece of firewood on the coals every now and then and that oven will stay between 850 & 900 F... no matter how many pizza's I make, the oven floor stay's nice and hot from the reflective heat coming off the ceiling.  The pizza's cook evenly top & bottom.. and, yes, the 90 second pizza is possible.  (Althought I was at Settebello in Salt Lake City recently and I swear they were cranking out 45 second pizza's... just another level of production...)  The low dome oven is "tuned" for pizza... (by the way, the book includes temperature curves and performance data as well.. much like in the The Breadbuilders...)


Well.. thanks for the inquiry and nice to hear from you again... I should have the package out soon and it will be priced reasonably... a drop in the bucket when compared to the overall budget for the typical oven build... feel free to drop me a line here or shoot me an email at: info@fornonapoletano.com

Regards,

John

Offline mikeintj

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2007, 10:41:32 AM »

Like you I had decided to build a lower dome than the one at forno bravo, again for the reasons you suggest. I haven't built it yet but I didn't (and don't) think that this requires any different building techniques. Surely it is just a matter of adjusting the angles at which you cut the brick so that the dome ends up lower?

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2007, 01:43:59 PM »
John,

I will contact you in private soon.

All,

Just want to say to the wider audience that the pictures/design of the dome profile/direction  shows major differences from authentic neapolitan pizza-only ovens.

Again the measure that I discussed for the height was taken by another website that suggested how to build pizza ovben but in reality is different from a Neapolitan oven, and have already clarified that.




Offline johnrbek

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2007, 05:30:55 PM »
Marco,

Good to hear from you again!

Just wanted to elaborate a bit on my previous post.  I did a good bit of research while building my oven and reached out to many sources.  As I mentioned above, these sources included professional and amateur oven builders, pizzamaking.it and other web sites, forums, and the many books I have on the subject of oven building.  I appreciate the insight you have shared with myself and the group on Neapolitan ovens as well.  Your drawings, concepts, and dimensions and others I've found on italian web sites have been useful.

Anyone who has read your posts here on pizzamaking.com knows your position on Neapolitan ovens...  For those who haven't, I think it can be summarized briefly:  a true Neapolitan oven can only be built by master craftsmen using techniques passed down from the masters using materials only available in that region of Italy.   (From what I understand, that concept carries over into Italian cooking as well... when cooking a recipe from a region, use the olives from that region, the wine from that region, the meat & cheese from that region, etc..  These are good things.)  And, in a professional setting, given the investment involved in time and money, there is no substitute.  I wouldn't consider anything other than a true Neapolitan oven in a professional setting.

On the other hand, many amateur/backyard builders considering ovens for recreational use are also interested in this type of oven.  And the reality is, because the manufacturing techniques for these ovens are very proprietary, there is virutally no information available in the public domain on the exact techniques used to build one.   As I said, I did a good amount of research on the topic and my account is just that... My account of my particular build, with instructions, photo's, performance measurements, materials lists, measurements, dimensions, and as much information I could capture in my quest.   And, as time passes.. this information will become outdated and be rendered inaccurate as more and more information on the proper techniques becomes available... In the meantime, it is a recap of what is available today...

So, I hope this explains my approach a little better and put's your concerns to rest. 

Regards,

JB

 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 05:32:51 PM by johnrbek »

Offline Amir

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Re: Banned from the Forno Bravo Forums!!
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2007, 03:48:05 PM »
Everyone, Marco's link is in Italian.. I'd like to get a piece of that translated by someone who knows italian...
I don't speak Italian but Google machine translation seems to have done a good job creating something that reads quite well: I am too new to the forum to post links.   So here is a bit of the translation:

"Located the best place to elicit materials. We recommend the full facts bricks by hand as compared to those industrial printed, better to resist high temperatures. The bricks made by hand have the advantage of warmed more slowly and retain heat longer, while those for industrial printed, excessive compression dell'argilla can block the thermal expansion and cause the rupture of brick.  You can also choose refractory bricks designed to resist high temperatures up to 1600 °, however, have the defect to store and dispose heat faster....

The construction of the furnace begins with the support base that we recommend it wider diameter of the furnace at least 15 - 20 cm also to have a plan and support always helpful about 1.2 meters high from the ground.

 Above is the basis of a plan drawn tiles and between the base and the tiles need to put a thick layer of insulating material like clay or expanded vermiculite, all held together with refractory cement and sand.   It is important that the plan is perfectly horizontal oven to cook with ease even initially liquid foods such as farinata.

At this point we must build again. The dimensions depend on the furnace circumference at the base and the height of the vault.
The height of the vault to the top domestic yields with the formula:

H = d / 3.4 where H is the height of the vault and d is the diameter of the furnace in centimeters. However, the height of the vault must never fall below 25-30 cm. For example, in an oven to 110 cm in diameter, the height of the vault will be 40 cm.
We must ensure that the center of the base of the oven near the fire of time which usually is a paraboloid in order to concentrate reflection of the warmth of time on the hob.  

To construct the time we start making a base of wet sand or earth very compact size desired, be shaped in the form of a paraboloid, (the secret lies in being able to properly shape the dome of sand, is a bit like playing build casteli sand on the beach) on which the bricks will support the vault of dish, held together with cement mortar or refractory with a mixture of clay mixed with a little sand. The bricks are arranged staggered starting from the bottom to rise to follow the curvature of the sand. Once the structure is completed, seated hardened and will be used to remove the sand from support.

The size of the mouth also depend on the diameter of the oven, on what you intend to cook, and the size of pans you want to insert.  An oven with a diameter of 120 cm. Should the base of the mouth of at least 50 cm.  And a height of 28 cm. Even the shape of the mouth is influenced by the location that you wish to give the oven. The ovens for baking bread and pizza prefer mouths shaped isosceles trapezoid, but rectangular, while the ovens for cooking foods like sweet and farinate prefer opening-shaped semicircle slightly crushed in the middle.

After the construction of the time, you should cover of insulating material that retain heat.  To do this is a good layer of clay often expanded about 12 or 15 cm. Si puo' anche usare della vermiculite. You can also use the vermiculite. It then covers everything with a layer of brick or other material with aesthetic and decorative function.

The chimney. Its construction began providing a small fume hood from place between the time and the mouth of the oven or on the side and which builds the real chimney. The rules apply to the views fireplaces and stoves.  I preferred smoke pipes insulated and circular section. The diameter of the chimney, indicative, it is clear from the table below, pointing out that the draft is directly proportional to the chimney. "


I hope Marco is not falling of his chair with potentially poor translation of some of writings :D.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 03:50:36 PM by Amir »