1st post, question about autolysing and overall dough method

[mjkelly93]

Ive been reading here about a week or two now and i figured id finally make a first post. I'm just out of college and opened up a small pizza place and until recently have only been serving shell pizzas, meaning we buy shells from a bakery in town and use those as the base. I can get away with it because its a small town and realistically, the rest of the pies in town are terrible. Anyways, I've been playing with dough for about a month or two now. I'm really just teaching myself and haven't been taught by anyone. I've been reading Reinharts two books, American Pie and The Breadbakers Apprentice.

I've been toying with his Neo-Neapolitan recipe in American Pie. So far ive had decent if not good results, much better results with his neo-neapolitan recipe than his NY or Americana. I've been working with this autolysing since i started reading about it here. I found alot of great information on why it works and how it works, but what i havent found was a nice step by step guide on the procedure. So instead of asking a question, I'd rather post exactly what im doing and see if anyone can give me any input on my methods. I'm 100% positive theres spots that i can do differently and improve on and im sure if im going to learn, this is probably the best place to learn.

Heres my recipe:
2500 grams Conagra "Kyrol" High Gluten Flour, 14% protein
2.5 Tablespoons Table Salt
1/4 Cup Sugar
1.5 Tablespoons IDY
1/2 Cup Vegetable Oil
1640 grams Tap Water at 70 degrees F
And i use a hobart 20Q dough mixer

Heres my procedure as best as i can remember and describe:
I add all the H2O to my dough bowl. While stirring with my dough hook, i add to the water 2000 grams of my flour gradually. I let it stir on low 3-5 minutes until its all evenly mixed and looks like a very very sticky wet dough puddle in my bowl. I cover and let it autolyse, sit there, for about 25 minutes. I then start mixing again and after about 3 minutes begin to mix in my 500 grams of flour, yeast, sugar, and oil. Then i add my salt. I let it mix about 2-3 more minutes and its done, i think hehe. It windowpanes nicely and is very sticky or tacky but workable when i add a little flour. I cut out about 500 gram dough balls and lightly oil them and place them in tins that are stored in my fridge overnight at 36-41 degrees. The next day i pull them out about an hour or two before using them. I've been cooking them at like 475-500 on the stone in my oven.

When the doughs finishes, it seems to have a small amount of little clumps in it. I believe this occurs when i stir in the oil. It seems like there are no clumps at all then all of a sudden they're there right after i add the oil. I could be mistaken, i'll check more tomorrow when i make more.

I have a million questions i could ask about what im doing and why im doing it, but, I'd rather to just get some feedback from the community then ask a couple questions. I tried to be as detailed as possible but will gladly provide additional details, just ask

By the way, i think this site is great and im sure ill be a looooong time member here. I spend every free minute i have reading off of here now that i found this great site. =)

Thanks in advance,
Marty

[chiguy]

 Hi mjkelly93,
 I don't know if you have calculated the bakers percentages of the formula you are using but i did(approx).
 Flour    100%
 Water    65%
 Salt      1.4%
 Sugar    1.9%
 IDY       0.55%
 Oil        4.4%
 It seems like a pretty good recipe although it will be very extensible with the combination of the high hydration and higher oil percentage.
 I will say that it is good practice to take and monitor finished dough temperatures after mixing. It can be as important as the formula, especially in the comercial setting. Also cross stacking for an hour in the cooler helps cool the dough down quicker and reduce condensation that can form on the dough ball. After an hour stack and seal the dough trays.
 
 I am not sure which book or how you came up with you're mixing procedure. It sounds like a combination of books and different members mixing procedures here. I do think slow flour addition and autolyse can be helpful in the mixing process but are not the only way to produce a nice crust/crumb. It can also be achieved by mixing the dough to the proper consistency.
 http://www.pmq.com/lehmann_winter2001.shtml
 Also Lehmann recommends Staging of the Ingrediants for Mixing
 .The staging of the ingrediants at the dough mixer can have a profound affect upon the dough performance of the resulting dough.
- Put tempered water in the bowl first, then add salt and sugar if you wish, or they can be added into the flour.
- Next add the flour and the IDyeast. There is no advantage to mixing the yeast into the water.
-Begin mixing at low speed just to wet the flour, after 2 or 3 minutes,stop the mixer and add the oil. by doing this, the flour will fully hydrate on the water resulting in more consistent doughs.
 Once oil is added, mix at low speed just to incorporate, then finish mixing in the normal manner. This is for a 60qt hobart mixer.
  I believe that the lumps that appear in the dough in your mixing stage is due to the ingrediant sequencing. When you add the oil with the remaining flour and dry ingrediants it will be absorbed by the flour and create lumps. It seems that by adding the oil just after the flour has absorbed the water will resolve this issue.                   Chiguy
 
     

[RoadPizza]

Heres my recipe:
2500 grams Conagra "Kyrol" High Gluten Flour, 14% protein
2.5 Tablespoons Table Salt
1/4 Cup Sugar
1.5 Tablespoons IDY
1/2 Cup Vegetable Oil
1640 grams Tap Water at 70 degrees F
And i use a hobart 20Q dough mixer

Heres my procedure as best as i can remember and describe:
I add all the H2O to my dough bowl. While stirring with my dough hook, i add to the water 2000 grams of my flour gradually. I let it stir on low 3-5 minutes until its all evenly mixed and looks like a very very sticky wet dough puddle in my bowl. I cover and let it autolyse, sit there, for about 25 minutes. I then start mixing again and after about 3 minutes begin to mix in my 500 grams of flour, yeast, sugar, and oil. Then i add my salt. I let it mix about 2-3 more minutes and its done, i think hehe. It windowpanes nicely and is very sticky or tacky but workable when i add a little flour. I cut out about 500 gram dough balls and lightly oil them and place them in tins that are stored in my fridge overnight at 36-41 degrees. The next day i pull them out about an hour or two before using them. I've been cooking them at like 475-500 on the stone in my oven.

When the doughs finishes, it seems to have a small amount of little clumps in it. I believe this occurs when i stir in the oil. It seems like there are no clumps at all then all of a sudden they're there right after i add the oil. I could be mistaken, i'll check more tomorrow when i make more.

Try mixing all your ingredients (except for the yeast) together and mix a couple of minutes.  You could also add ingredients in stages but make sure to always add yeast last and mix for another ten minutes or so.  The whole dough mixing and doughball rolling procedure shouldn't really last more than 30 minutes.

PS - The water may be a little too hot for an overnight rise.

MY MISTAKE:  I didn't realize that you were trying a Neo-Neapolitan recipe (that's what I get for not reading the whole post  .  I was giving you tips on a NY-style dough.

[Pete-zza]

mjkelly93,

Nice job with your post. You have a good grasp of the concepts involved.

The autolyse technique you used is essentially the authentic autolyse as conceived by the late Professor Raymond Calvel except that when he devised the technique (in the 70s) it was with respect to rustic European breads that used no oil or sugar. However, your adaptation of the autolyse method to incorporate sugar and oil seems to be consistent with the autolyse principles. You might play around with the autolyse rest period and you might try dissolving the sugar in the water, and add the oil while the dough is still on the wet side (as suggested by chiguy) but, beyond those possibilities, I don’t see much else that you might consider if you want to stick pretty much to the classic autolyse method.

It is very rare to see pizza operators in the U.S. use autolyse, or similar rest periods, except that its use is growing among operators who are trying to produce products that have a more artisanal component. The approach mentioned by chiguy and attributed to Tom Lehmann is the typical approach used by most professionals, at least those who follow Tom Lehmann’s dough making protocol and management. I am sure that Tom knows what an autolyse is but I have never seen him recommend it or even describe it in all of his writings that I have read. Yet it is possible to modify even his dough making protocol to utilize autolyse-like rest periods. As an example of how this might be done, you might want to read this PMQ Think Tank post by Evelyne Slomon, one of our members, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=842#842.

Ultimately, you will want to use what works best and fits within the procedures you and your helpers will be using to make the dough.

Good luck.

Peter

[mjkelly93]

First, thanks alot for all the advice. I really appreciate all the help. Honestly, i thought i was on the totally wrong track haha.

A couple of questions here though:

I will say that it is good practice to take and monitor finished dough temperatures after mixing.

What sort of temperature range should i be gunning for here? I'll definitely start logging all the temperatures of the doughs either way.

I am not sure which book or how you came up with you're mixing procedure. It sounds like a combination of books and different members mixing procedures here.

Thats exactly what it is really. I liked the Reinhart neo-neapolitan recipe and just kinda added that autolyse to it after reading about it here. From my understanding, and at this point its a very minimal understanding, autolysing is useful because it cuts back on the time of kneading thus preserving the flavor of the dough by preventing unnecessary oxidation of something (cant think of the name of it off my head). Reinharts number 1 rule is Flavor so it only seems to make sense right?

I believe that the lumps that appear in the dough in your mixing stage is due to the ingrediant sequencing. When you add the oil with the remaining flour and dry ingrediants it will be absorbed by the flour and create lumps. It seems that by adding the oil just after the flour has absorbed the water will resolve this issue.

I'll be following Lehmann's tips bout sequencing later today exactly. I let ya know how it goes.

You could also add ingredients in stages but make sure to always add yeast last and mix for another ten minutes or so.

10 minutes seems a little high no? Shouldnt it be like 2-3 minutes because of the autolyse? Should i add my yeast into the autolyse and let it sit for 25 minutes? I found variations in this. Some said i should some said i shouldn't. I think i read that its ok to add the yeast if its IDY and not ADY and if it only autolyses for 20-25 minutes and no longer.  ??

It is very rare to see pizza operators in the U.S. use autolyse, or similar rest periods, except that its use is growing among operators who are trying to produce products that have a more artisanal component.

I wasnt aware of this at all. I actually assumed it was kinda commonplace since i kept reading about it all over the place. We'll see how it comes out i guess


I just have a few general questions and im pressed for time right now so im sure im going to forget one or two.

I saw that most recipes say you can use sugar or honey, or veggie oil or olive oil, or salt or kosher salt, or tap water or distilled water, o butter or oil? However i couldnt find anyone talking about preference or even more specifically, why they prefer one over the other. Is there any noticeable difference between the choices? I'd imagine there are but does anyone know what they are? haha Does DH20 make a difference over tap H2O?

Ok i gotta run we open in about an hour and nothings done down there because im sitting here typing this out heheh. Thanks again for the advice. I'll check back tonight after 11 or if i get a free minute this afternoon. Sorry for the rather long post, but i figure since ill be gone all day i might as well cover everything in 1 post

Thanks,
Marty

[Pete-zza]

Marty,

The targeted finished dough temperature that Tom Lehmann recommends is 80-85 degrees F (see http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?noframes;read=12347, second full paragraph of Tom's answer). The way finished dough temperature is controlled is described in this article: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. However, finished dough temperature can get a bit tricky when you use autolyse or autolyse-like rest periods because the dough can rise in temperature just during the rest periods. So, you may find it necessary to use even lower temperature water than what is calculated using the formula described in the article referenced above.

You are correct that the autolyse is supposed to cut back on the total dough preparation time and it also helps preserve the carotenoids, which is what Peter Reinhart discusses from time to time. Your total knead time should be adjusted to produce a slightly underkneaded dough, whatever time that is for your dough batch size (I estimate about 9.6 lbs.), mixer and mixer speeds. As for when to add the yeast, and which type, you may want to take a look at this thread on autolyse, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22758.html#msg22758 and, particularly, Reply 9 by cocoabean. As you will read there, if the yeast is added too soon, it can start the fermentation process and acidify the dough. Apparently, this is not as great a concern if the yeast is IDY (or a natural preferment or starter) and the autolyse rest period is not excessive, as noted in a few places in the abovereferenced thread.

As for your question on sugar/honey, vegetable oil/olive oil, regular salt/Kosher salt, tap water/distilled water, and butter/oil, the particular ingredients used is largely a matter of preference and economics. For example, many operators use a combination of ordinary table sugar, vegetable oil (soybean oil), regular table salt, and tap water simply because they are the cheapest forms of those ingredients. Some operators may use a blend of vegetable oil and olive oil, or a blend of canola oil and olive oil, and some may use a pomace grade of olive oil, but this is usually done as a cost savings measure while retaining some of the flavor benefits of olive oil.

Honey is a good form of food for the yeast (it’s better than ordinary table sugar), and it helps with the coloration and taste of the finished crust, but it is quite expensive and can be a mess to use in a commercial setting. You could substitute a dry form, but that can be quite expensive. Plus, whatever form you use, you technicaly should adjust the hydration of your dough formulation to compensate for that particular form. For additional detail on sugar vs. honey, see http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?noframes;read=15610.

Whether you use regular table salt or Kosher salt won’t make much of a difference if they are fully dissolved in water and the quantities used are equivalent, but according to member pkasten (Paul), Kosher salt has a physical structure that can tear the gluten structure if added and mixed directly in a dough, as you would be doing with your particular autolyse method (see Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4779.msg40692.html#msg40692). Some people also prefer using Kosher salt because of taste preference and because Kosher salts often contain fewer chemical additives than ordinary table salt. An even better choice than table salt or Kosher salt would be a high-quality sea salt, which is free of chemicals and additives and contains minerals that are good as nutrients for yeast. However, sea salt is considerably more expensive than the other forms.

As between using oil or butter in the dough itself, I would say that the main difference is likely to be flavor related although there may also be some texture differences depending on the amount of butter used. Butter also contains some water, as does margarine, so technically you should make some adjustments to the hydration of the dough formula if you use butter or margarine rather than oil. By contrast, shortening, like Crisco, or even lard, can be substituted on a weight-for-weight basis for oil without requiring such adjustments (see http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?read=27702). Almost all of the solid fats are more expensive than a good quality olive oil and most of the blends referenced above.

The subject of water has been discussed many times on the forum. From what I can tell, most pizza operators use their local municipal water although there are many who use water purification systems where warranted and justified on an economic basis. Occasionally you will read of operators who import their water from other places, such as New York City, but that may be done more as a marketing ploy than any proven benefit when used to make dough. There may be cases where water quality is a real issue for pizza operators, but they can usually be satisfactorily addressed on a case by case basis. For some additional discussion of water quality, you may want to take a look at this post:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg38039.html#msg38039 (Reply 13).

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml

[mjkelly93]

So i've been tinkering with the recipe over the weekend and even further today and i think im going to go back to a non-autolyse recipe. I'm just having too many problems with it i think.

First: the clumping. Its definitely the oil causing the clumping in the dough. Ive tried adding the oil as prescribed above and it didnt work. Ive also tried adding the oil to the water before any flour, after the autolyse in the wet batter, at the very end before kneading, and in the flour prior to any water. Each and every method causes clumping and the only way to rid yourself of the clumping is the knead with the hook after the autolyse like 8-10 minutes thereby pretty much eliminating the usefulness of the autolyse, if im correct on the concept that is. If i dont use the oil at about 4-6% of total weight, the dough is chewier and i see the difference.

Second: the micromanagement. At the very start of the autolyse when i begin to add flour to the water with the spinning hook, it begins to stick to the bowl. As i add more flour, it just clumps up even more so i have to turn it off, lower the bowl, and scrape the sides with a spatula. Just getting all the flour hydrated for the autolyse is a challenge with flour sticking to the sides and the bottom of the bowl. Its like a constant battle to make sure all the flour is kneading and mixing and not stuck to the bottom or side.

Third: the temperature. Im having an incredibly hard time regulating temperature as mentioned above. I tried adding my usual 70 degree temperature and noticed that after a 25 minute autolyse and approx 10 minutes kneading and adding ingredients the finally temperature was about 67 degrees. When i used 85 degree water the final temp was 73. And id imagine that if i used 90 degree water, which i didnt get a chance to try, it would probably end somewhere around 75-77. Id imagine that its the long time sitting there thats lowering the temp, or it could be the ambient temperature at around 65, or it could be the fact that im kneading longer than i should be to incorporate the oil clumps. I really dont know. I can say that all ingredients are at room temperature and im not using flour from a cooler or anything like that.


I mean ive got three major hurdles here to get over. And, after i finally get through one of them then i have to assume that the way i fixed that hurdle wont interfere with the other two. I thought the best batch of dough i got so far, came from this recipe with the autolyse and all so id like to work a way through this but i dont know if its possible. Im gonna spend the rest of the week trying this recipe without the autolyse. Simplified, its just add the ingredients together, mix about 5 minutes to incorporate everything to a rough looking ball, let the dough rest about 5 minutes, then knead 2 minutes on medium and your done.

Also, i had someone offer me advice who knows what hes talking about and i wanted to run it by you guys first before i even mess with it. He told me that theres no such thing as too much oil/fat in the dough. He didnt say how much to use but he said to use ALOT. What are the advantages and disadvantages to using, say, 10-15% oil in the dough? I thought i read somewhere that someone recommended 8-10% but i could be mistaken. What are your ideas on that much oil?

So i guess im gonna go back to reinharts neo-neapolitan recipe verbatim for right now, just tinkering with little things to get it how i want it. I'll keep my eyes open for ideas at the Pizza Expo next week in Vegas and maybe ask a few questions about autolysing and all. Anyone else attending that thing next week anyway? Anyone been there in the past and offer any advice?

Thanks again guys,
Marty


Edit: By the way pete, that last post about the differences in ingredients is an excellent resource. I think you should elaborate on that as much as you possibly can, cite all your sources, and sticky that in the forum as a resource on common dough ingredients and the contrasts between them. Im sure plenty of people would be interested in just what was said in that one post. Just my .02

[chiguy]

Also, i had someone offer me advice who knows what hes talking about and i wanted to run it by you guys first before i even mess with it. He told me that theres no such thing as too much oil/fat in the dough. He didnt say how much to use but he said to use ALOT. What are the advantages and disadvantages to using, say, 10-15% oil in the dough? I thought i read somewhere that someone recommended 8-10% but i could be mistaken. What are your ideas on that much oil?

I don't feel the comment about oil usage to be correct,(no such thing as too much oil)in fact its a bit ridiculous. I am sure the person you spoke with has some experience with pizza, although i would not trust someone who when asked how much or what % oil they are using and they say Uhh,ALOT also i have spoke too many pizza operators who knew very little about dough or the function of the ingrediants.Although 10-15% oil is not uncommon, they are however usually used for pan or a deep dish style.
 I am still not sure the exact style of pizza you are attempting to make but to my understanding Neapolitan pizza uses no oil and N.Y. styles use only a few(3%)oil if any at all. The function of oil in dough are lubrication,extensibility,some browning,tenderness and keeping quality(if kept under heat lamps) to keep from drying out.
 I am surprised by the toughness you are experiencing with this recipe with 65%hydration and 4.4%oil. The only thing i can think of is that you are baking at too low of temperature for too long. You may consider going up to a minimum of 525F for about 10 minutes. I noticed in the original post you did mention baking times being used at 475F. If you are still unhappy with the texture of the dough you may consider switching to a bread/lower protien flour with a softer mouth feel.You may need to lower the hydration when using a lower protien/bread flour.
 

. I'll keep my eyes open for ideas at the Pizza Expo next week in Vegas and maybe ask a few questions about autolysing and all. Anyone else attending that thing next week anyway? Anyone been there in the past and offer any advice?

Yes i have been too the Las Vegas Expo and can suggest taking the dough making class Pizza Crust Boot Camp 1&2 from General Mills(Tim Huff)instructor?? also if Tom Lehmann is teaching the Dough University course(50$) this will be very informative. Tom Lehmann is one if not the most respected baker/teacher in the commercial pizza industry. Don't be afraid to ask question during or after class.     
 Goodluck and let us know how the show turns out.   Chiguy   

[mjkelly93]

I am still not sure the exact style of pizza you are attempting to make

Yeah u and me both haha. I only tried making pretty much 2 kinds of dough, this one and a version of this one with milk. The milk one was bad because the dough was too limp. Thats really why i havent tried to make a NY Style dough because i dont like the limpness in the slice. So ive been just spending my time on this neapolitan. I tried the bread flour and the high protein and i thought the high protein produced a better crust. However, it was a little chewy and i read to either reduce the protein % or add more oil so i added more oil and it came out good.

With the 475, i set the oven at about 525 but ive read that when the door opens 50-100 degrees escape so i figured id guess at an avg of 475. But ive also read that this style dough with this much protein should be cooked between 425-475. I'll mess with oven temperature later this week.

What do you guys think about the temperature of the dough when it finishes? I read that when you knead it should heat it up so am i not kneading enuff?

Thanks,
Marty

[chiguy]

 Hi marty,
 I think that by creating a little thicker of a pizza should help reduce the drooping edge common in a N.Y. style. I will mention that you are not making traditional Neapolitan pizza so i would not market it as such. Neapolitan pizza is made with a 00 lower protien flour in a wood burning oven. 
 I think the important part of the pizza crust is too allow for a longer slower fermentation to develop flavor in the crust. The retarded/refridgerated dough process is the easiest way to achieve this with consistent results.

 As long as you allow the stone to warm up(525F) for at least 45minutes the pizza should bakes properly. But what are your baking times?  Heat loss of 100F every time you open the oven door?, not with a commercial deck oven.
 
When using the retarded dough process with (.25-.75%IDY) the recommended range of finished dough temperature is (72-84F). A dough within these parameters can be held for up to 72hours. I will say that higher finished dough temperatures (78-84F) can perform well the first and second day. The lower range of the finished dough temperature can perform from 2 to as many as 4 days in some cases. No matter what you may see other do here with fermentation times you are a commercial pizzeria and need consistency. These are parameters that will be discussed in both classes with GM's and Lehmann if he is still teaching the class.
 Because you are using a smaller mixer with a smaller dough batch combined with rest periods and shorter mix times you may not experience the same friction factor/temperature rise as other larger mixers and batches with continuious mixing. Not sure this is the reason may want to ask this question at the show.
 All of these dough management issues will be discussed in detail and pamplet guidelines will be handed out to take home. Ask question and take the dough making classes.   Chiguy