Author Topic: soughdough starter recipes and usage  (Read 2728 times)

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Offline grovemonkey

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soughdough starter recipes and usage
« on: April 04, 2007, 08:46:40 AM »
I finally got a starter going just using air/flour/water but I've got a few questions on using it.

do people do overnight refrigerations with the dough created using a starter?

any suggestions on amounts of starter to use if you've created a 100% flour 100% water starter? with a 62% hydration dough?

any other advice on using the starter in relation to pizza dough would be helpful... my starter was created using a 11% protein flour but my current flour is 14%, i wonder if that will affect the dough..?

Thanks a bunch.

grove



Online Pete-zza

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Re: soughdough starter recipes and usage
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 10:24:19 AM »
grove,

When you say "100% flour 100% water" do you mean that you are using equal quantities of flour and water and, if so, is it by volume or by weight?

Peter

Offline grovemonkey

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Re: soughdough starter recipes and usage
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2007, 10:31:13 PM »
To be honest I've been doing this based more on consistency in my own case, the consistency seems to be around equal amount of flour to water which has a fairly runny consistency but I added a little more flour so the starter is around 80% hydration right now, I think.  Those measurements would be based on grams. 

I tried your recipe, Pete, that you posted that was based around adding around 15 gms of starter to combined dough weight that equaled 300 grams 2 days ago.  I put that dough ball in the refrig for one day and then took it out for around 3 hours of sitting in my house around room temp.  The results were unexpected.. I got bubbling in my dough, but I also switched my flour type so that might also have affected this and I can't be certain.  It didn't seem to rise very good like when I add ADY to my dough, so I wondered if it had something to do with some basic rule in using starters that I didn't read about.  I've read that it does take longer to get a rise, although I think some would even debate that. 

that recipe I used was:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (2.3%):
Total (164.3%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:
   
182.59 g  |  6.44 oz | 0.4 lbs
113.21 g  |  3.99 oz | 0.25 lbs
4.2 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs
15 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs

 
175.09 g | 6.18 oz | 0.39 lbs
105.71 g | 3.73 oz | 0.23 lbs
4.2 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
15 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs  | TF = N/A

any input would be useful.

grove

Online Pete-zza

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Re: soughdough starter recipes and usage
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 12:13:38 AM »
grove,

For readability purposes, I have recast the dough formulation you posted as follows:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (2.3%):
Total (164.3%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:

182.59 g  |  6.44 oz | 0.4 lbs
113.21 g  |  3.99 oz | 0.25 lbs
4.2 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs
7.5 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs
15 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs

 
175.09 g | 6.18 oz | 0.39 lbs
105.71 g | 3.73 oz | 0.23 lbs
4.2 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
15 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs  | TF = N/A

The above recipe was cited (in another thread) merely as an example of how the math works for a starter/preferment-based dough formulation. I have not used the recipe although I can see from the numbers that it would work under the right conditions.

Now that I see what you have in mind, maybe I can come up with a couple of dough formulations for you to play around with, and also give you some examples from my own experience that are representative of the two dough formulations. If you have a particular dough ball weight in mind that you would like to use rather that the 300 gram dough ball in the above example, or any particular hydration, starter composition (flour and water quantities) or anything else, let me know and I think I should be able to construct the formulations around your specific interests.

In the meantime, I will mention that it is possible to cold ferment doughs that are based on starters. Several of our members do that routinely.

It's important to keep in mind that starters can vary all over the place. So what will be important in your case is that you learn the attributes and behavior of your particular starter. Without that understanding, you are likely to end up being disappointed with your results. But, for now, I think a couple of basic dough formulations and representative examples of both should give you a pretty good idea as to how you might proceed with your own experimentation.

I will await your reply before proceeding just in case you have any specific requests relative to the dough formulations.

Peter

Offline grovemonkey

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Re: soughdough starter recipes and usage
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 01:45:28 AM »
my dough weights are almost always 225 to 250 grams... but 300 g is fine... I like that size in my oven and the thickness seems to have to most appeal to guest when they come over..

I understand trying to get to know your starter.. since it's the beginning of my relationship with it.. it will take time.

I'm real interested in hearing how people are adding there starters and amounts people use as with any additional ways people use the starter.  Thanks a lot Pete for replying.

grove

ADD:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4665.0.html  just saw this information and it is fairly helpful also
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 01:54:28 AM by grovemonkey »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: soughdough starter recipes and usage
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2007, 04:27:42 PM »
grove,

It’s taken me a while but I have set forth below two typical dough formulations for you to consider, together with some examples of posts that I prepared based on my own experiments and that I deem to be representative of the two formulations.

The first formulation is based on using a small amount of starter, at 5% of the weight of formula water. This is in line with a Neapolitan style dough, and is the amount I would recommend that you use if your starter is young and not yet fully developed. Over time, and with maturity of your starter, that amount can be reduced by a few percent. Since the starter in this example is principally for leavening purposes, I will refer to this formulation as the “starter” formulation.

The second formulation is based on using the starter culture in greater quantity, at 20% of the total formula flour. At that rate, the starter should serve both to leaven the dough and to impart other characteristics to the final dough, such as higher acidity. I will refer to the second formulation as the “preferment” formulation.

For both formulations, I assumed the same starter consistency (using 50% water), and the same percents for the water (62%) and salt (2%). In reading the posts linked below, I think you will get a pretty good idea as to the scope and principles of use of natural starters, and the many challenges that accompany the use of natural starters. I found the greatest challenge to be the control of the fermentation temperature and fermentation times for room-temperature fermentations. This would still remain a challenge even if the starter is a good starter, with good strength, proper consistency, and well maintained, and especially so when the starter is used in very small quantities as is particularly characteristic of the Neapolitan style doughs.

Once the new preferment tool is posted on the forum, which I hope will be fairly soon, you will be able to create your own formulations. When the tool is posted, I plan to offer some comments on its use.

(“Starter” Formulation)
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (2.3%):
Total (164.3%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:

182.59 g  |  6.44 oz | 0.4 lbs
113.21 g  |  3.99 oz | 0.25 lbs
4.2 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
2.83 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs
2.83 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs
5.66 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs

 
179.76 g | 6.34 oz | 0.4 lbs
110.38 g | 3.89 oz | 0.24 lbs
4.2 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
5.66 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs  | TF = N/A

(“Preferment” Formulation)
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (2.3%):
Total (164.3%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:

182.59 g  |  6.44 oz | 0.4 lbs
113.21 g  |  3.99 oz | 0.25 lbs
4.2 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
18.26 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs
18.26 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs
36.52 g | 1.29 oz | 0.08 lbs

 
164.33 g | 5.8 oz | 0.36 lbs
94.95 g | 3.35 oz | 0.21 lbs
4.2 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
36.52 g | 1.29 oz | 0.08 lbs
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs  | TF = N/A

“Starter” Examples:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25630.html#msg25630 (Reply 40). The significance of this post is the use of a starter in fairly stiff form and how the quantity and characteristics of the starter and temperature affect the rate and extent of fermentation. The post also demonstrates how difficult it can be to control the temperature of fermentation in a normal home environment. In this case, the flour was the San Felice 00 flour. My recollection is that the starter was Texas born and bred.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2951.msg25809.html#msg25809 (Reply 43). The significance of this post is the same as the last post. In this case, the starter was an Ischia starter.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25807.html#msg25807 (Reply 94). The significance of this post is the use of a starter in fairly liquid form and how the quantity and characteristics of the starter and temperature affect the rate and extent of fermentation. In this case, the flour used was the Caputo 00 flour. My recollection is that the starter was my Texas starter.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25847/topicseen.html#msg25847 (Reply 95). The significance of this post is the same as the previous post. In this case, the starter was a Calmadoli starter, which was only two days old when the dough was made.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25896.html#msg25896 (Reply 96). The significance of this post is how temperature affects the fermentation of a natural starter. In the experiment described in this post, the starter was an Ischia starter, which was newly acquired when the test was performed.

“Preferment” Examples:

The following posts collectively demonstrate how a natural preferment can be used in fairly large amounts--about 20% of the formula flour—in relation to doughs that are to made at room temperature and for cold fermentation, and where the doughs can be used same day or after a few days. In all cases, the doughs were variations of the basic Lehmann dough and used my Texas starter, both in a liquid form and a stiffer form. Both refreshed and nonrefreshed starters were used. The flour used was the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774 (Reply 151);

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12644.html#msg12644 (Reply 165):

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12748.html#msg12748 (Reply 175).

Peter

Offline grovemonkey

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Re: soughdough starter recipes and usage
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2007, 11:35:52 PM »
Hi Pete,

Thanks for the exhaustive post and information.  My time frame for the dough rise is completely out of whack so I think that is why I've gotten some strange results (I made 2 pizzas using the starter already).  The results were not good but I realize that it has more to do with the fact that I haven't made a good dough ball that is fully risen yet.  Once I start getting some decent results, based on your recipes and advice, I'll post a link.

Thanks a bunch.  I also think new people using the board and interested in how to apply a starter in pizza making will really benefit from this  information you posted.

Grove


 

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