Author Topic: New Preferment Dough Calculation Tool  (Read 2202 times)

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Offline Boy Hits Car

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New Preferment Dough Calculation Tool
« on: April 10, 2007, 10:01:07 AM »
Today, acting for Steve, I entered a new post describing the features and attributes of the new Preferment Dough Calculating tool.  This tool should prove useful for those members who wish to use natural preferments in their doughs.  The details of the new preferment tool are provided at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4996.msg42266.html#msg42266. Direct access to the tool can be accomplished using the tools gateway at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html.

I hope this tool proves helpful to all our members.  Please feel free to post any comments about the tool.

- Mike


Offline Wazza McG

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Re: New Preferment Dough Calculation Tool
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2007, 06:55:59 PM »
Well done!

Even though I have not used the tool yet I have an appreciation on the work that is involved in creating such a tool for all online.  I am sure many will take advantage of your efforts - keep up the good work!

Congrats,

Wazza McG
Fair Dinkum - you want more Pizza!  Crikey ! I've run out out them prawny thingymebobs again!

Online Pete-zza

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Re: New Preferment Dough Calculation Tool
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2007, 11:56:36 PM »
Wazza,

Thank you for your kind words.

I had your work with preferments in mind when Mike and I were working on the tool, and we had hoped to be able to include the classic preferments like poolish, sponges, bigas and old dough as part of the preferment tool. However, as you know, there are so many variations of these preferments, with so many possible combinations of ingredients, that it would have been very difficult to cover every possible variation. Even if we could have overcome all of the programming and other challenges, we concluded that with so many choices we would have just confused everyone but the experts in preferments. I think it would be fun, however, to design a few specialized preferment tools, even if they are the classic ones, but I don't sense that there is much demand for such tools among pizza dough makers.

Peter

Offline Barry

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Re: New Preferment Dough Calculation Tool
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2007, 07:58:50 AM »
Hi Peter,

I have used the Preferment Dough Calculating Tool with great success during the past 2 weeks, and also made good ciabatta using it.

I have been wrestling with trying to calculate the exact amount of yeast (IDY) to use in various room temperature fermenations. I have summised from reading (sometimes between the lines) in postings from both pftaylor and Marco that room temperature fermentations produce great (better?) overall flavour. I guess that this may be due to greater enzyme activity at room temperatures vs. refrigeration fermentation. Room temperatures fluctuate quite a bit in my home (no central heating or aircon), and the time available for fermentation as well.

I know that yeast doubles it's activity every rise of 17 deg F. How about time? Is the relationship linear, or is there an exponential factor as time goes by ?

I would love to have access to a "tool" that provided the percentage of IDY required to produce the perfect bulk dough, ready to be divided and balled - about 1 - 1.5 hours before stretching and baking. I would like to see this information for eleven different ambient temperatures, say 15 deg C  up to 25 deg C, and also for 23 different time periods, say 8 up to 30 hours of fermenation.

The constant could be for 1 kg  of flour in the formulation.

What do you think ? Or am I on the wrong track ?

Kind regards.

Barry

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Re: New Preferment Dough Calculation Tool
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2007, 09:21:32 AM »
Barry,

I’m glad to get the feedback on your use of the new Preferment Dough Calculating tool.

The forum expert on temperature/yeast interactions is November. He has written on this subject on a few occasions on different threads.

I’d like you to take a look at the following posts:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg37297.html#msg37297 (Reply 53);
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42558.html#msg42558; and
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42570.html#msg42570 (Reply 5).

The first link, and related posts, essentially debunks the overly simplistic notion advanced by General Mills and others (and which I have been guilty of advancing on more than one occasion) that yeast activity doubles with every 17 F rise in temperature (General Mills uses 15 F). The second link expands upon the first link and mentions how one might calculate the amount of yeast to use based on a reference case that November describes in his post. The last link, plus the following Reply 6 by November, gives an example of how one might adjust the amount of yeast to use based on different temperatures and times. If you had a fixed temperature of fermentation, the math would be much simpler.

Peter

Offline November

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Re: New Preferment Dough Calculation Tool
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2007, 10:29:14 AM »
I would love to have access to a "tool" that provided the percentage of IDY required to produce the perfect bulk dough, ready to be divided and balled - about 1 - 1.5 hours before stretching and baking. I would like to see this information for eleven different ambient temperatures, say 15 deg C  up to 25 deg C, and also for 23 different time periods, say 8 up to 30 hours of fermenation.

How about an infinite range of dough masses, infinite number of temperatures, across an infinite range of time, with dozens of transitional temperature combinations, and several containment material types?  The development of such a tool is already in progress.

- red.november

Offline Barry

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Re: New Preferment Dough Calculation Tool
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2007, 02:29:09 PM »
Hi Peter,

Thankyou for your reply, and the extensive list of references for me to check out. They are most appropriate, and I had "fun" reading them. Those formulations just look too complicated for my poor, frazzled brain to cope with in the evening ! I will look at them again this week end.

red.november,

Thankyou too for your reply, and the comprehensive work you have done in this field. I am really looking forward to you completing the development of the tool you refer to. Imagine: You decide at 3 pm on Saturday afternoon to make dough for a party on Sunday evening ( say 7 pm). The dough would be mixed by 3:30 pm (Sat) and ferment at room temperature (say 22.5 deg C) until 5:30 on Sunday - 14 hours. This tool would calculate the exact percentage of IDY required to achieve a perfect bulk dough by 5:30 on Sunday, so that it can be divided and balled for use at 7 pm. I can't wait !

Kind regards.

Barry

Offline Wazza McG

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Re: New Preferment Dough Calculation Tool
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2007, 06:28:50 PM »
I have always wanted a twin peaks calculator,but never had the ability to do so!

Quoted here from http://www.theartisan.net/fermentation_control.htm

When a correctly mixed sponge or dough is fermented, two sets of forces come into play: gas production and gas retention. Gas production involves primarily the biological functioning of yeast on available fermentable carbohydrates, whereas gas retention is largely a measure of the mechanical and physicochemical modifications of the colloidal structure of the dough during mixing and during the course of fermentation.

The baker must control fermentation in such manner that the forces of gas production and gas retention are in proper balance. Thus, should gas production attain its maximum rate before the dough's gas retention capacity is fully developed, then too much gas will be lost to bring about maximum aeration of the dough. On the other hand, if the gas retention capacity has peaked before gas production has reached its maximum rate, then again much of the gas is unable to perform its aerating function. Hence, the aim of fermentation control is to have gas production capacity and gas retention capacity coincide both as to rate and time. As Clark (in Pyler) has stated, "When both peaks are reached at the same time there frequently is combined in one loaf the largest volume together with the best grain, texture, crust color, and other loaf characteristics which the flour in question will produce."


I know there is another variable which includes flavour - that may be too much to ask for - lets go for Triple Peaks!  :o

Regards,

Wazza McG
Fair Dinkum - you want more Pizza!  Crikey ! I've run out out them prawny thingymebobs again!

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Re: New Preferment Dough Calculation Tool
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2007, 08:20:15 PM »
Wazza,

Until November comes up with a preferment tool to control all of the variables, about the most you can expect of any preferment tool, including the new Preferment tool on this forum, is the amount of ingredients to use. Then it is up to you to manage the process so that you get the desired finished dough characteristics, including the two peaks you mentioned. The flavor component should naturally flow from the way that you manage that process, especially managing the amounts of yeast to use, and the prefermentation time and temperature. Varying these components of the process will allow you to have some measure of control over the flavor aspects.

Knowing that you are a big fan of using preferments and experimenting with them, I think you might enjoy reading the feature article in the latest online publication of the San Francisco Baking Institute, at http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/SFBINewsWI07.pdf. You will see a discussion there of ways that preferments can be used with specialty flours to achieve a wide range of flavors in the breads made using such preferments. This is an area that potentially has application to pizza dough making.

Peter