Author Topic: Dough temperature questions  (Read 3939 times)

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Offline Taft

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Dough temperature questions
« on: March 29, 2007, 11:49:16 AM »
I recently discovered the board and have been avidly reading some threads in an attempt to improve my pizza making skills.  Especially of interest have been Pete's Lehman and KitchenAid method threads.  I have been focusing on the KitchenAid thread lately in an attempt to extend my fermentation time and try to extract some more flavor out of my enzymes and yeast.

Anyway, loosely following the methods contained in those threads, I've been through 3 or 4 pies and have noticed potential issues with my temperatures.  Note that I'm not really complaining about the results of me efforts here; to my tastebuds they have been great pizzas (though I'm still experimenting with baking methods to achieve the right level of browning/crunch--stone, screen, rack, etc.).

My question really revolves around what the effects the final dough temperature will have on the end result.  Two things I have noticed: 1) my final dough temps have varied wildly (from 80F to nearly 100F) and I've tried controlling for that with short exposure to the freezer before moving to the fridge, and 2) the rise/consistency/taste of the dough hasn't seemed to change dramatically given the differences in temp.

I am a relatively experienced beer brewer, so I know the effects temperatures can have on enzyme and yeast activity (both in the level of activity and the type of activity).  But I'm a bit puzzled as to why I have noticed more of a difference in the final product.  So if anyone can give me their impressions and experiences with dough temp on the final product, I'd much appreciate it.

BTW, this is a *great* board!  I'm overwhelmed at the amount of information contained in these threads.

Taft


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2007, 04:02:03 PM »
Taft,

If you have been achieving finished dough temperatures in the range of 80-100 degrees F, this suggests several possibilities: 1) you are using warm water, or at least room temperature water or tap water, 2) you have a high (hot/warm) room temperature, 3) you are using one or more room temperature autolyse or autolyse-like rest periods, 4) you are using a bread machine or food processor, 5) if using a mixer, you are using high mixer speeds or long mix times, or 6) you are introducing delay into the process in some other way. A combination of these possibilities may apply in your case, and they definitely can have an impact on finished dough temperature.

The recommended finished dough temperature for the basic Lehmann dough formulation is about 80-85 degrees F. That is for a commercial environment using industrial coolers. For a home environment where a less efficient refrigerator is to be used, the recommended finished dough temperature is around 75-80 degrees F. Anyone who has made a few Lehmann doughs following the instructions given in the Lehmann NY style dough thread--which instructions originated from Tom Lehmann himself--knows that it is hard to get more than a few days life out of the dough, and the dough is quite likely to have a high degree of extensibility, especially when high hydration levels (e.g., around 63%) are used.

A good part of the work I have been doing at the new KitchenAid dough making thread has been to extend the useful life of the typical Lehmann dough--or any other comparable dough for that matter. I have done this by changing the sequencing of ingredients in the dough making process and also by trying to keep the finished dough temperature as low as possible, below 70 degrees F if possible. I have done this primarily by using cold or marginally frozen water, using low mixer speeds (but otherwise trying to prepare the dough as fast as possible), and getting the dough into the refrigerator as quickly as possible. In my case, I have even been using a metal container to help cool the dough down faster once in the refrigerator, and I place that container in the coolest part of my refrigerator compartment. As you can see, just about everything I do has a low finished dough temperature in mind. When making a standard Lehmann dough with a 2-3 day use period, I only work to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F and I use the normal dough preparation steps and sequences.

I believe the abovementioned combination of measures, along with the altered sequencing of ingredients, and especially the yeast, are responsible for the prolonged dough lives. The other steps I use, such as sifting the flour and using the combination of whisk, flat beater and C-hook, and some hand kneading, are for the purpose of achieving a higher quality, better handling dough, even at hydration levels of around 65%. By using both aspects of the dough preparation, I hope to achieve high quality doughs with longer than average usable lives, and a finished crust that has above average flavors and texture. In some respects, and maybe even several, the doughs most likely do not comport with standard dough preparation procedures. For example, yeast performance is undoubtedly compromised by the low dough temperatures and its addition at the end of the dough making process, but enzyme performance seems not to be adversely affected by the low dough temperatures. In fact, crust coloration and crust flavor after several days of cold fermentation have been first rate, and oven spring has been good. Even without adding sugar to the dough, the crust is noticeably sweet even after 8 days and longer. So there is plenty of residual sugar in the dough after all that time.

If you’d care to elaborate further on the methods you have been using, we may be able to comment further on your specific situation.

Peter

Offline Jack

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2007, 11:11:52 AM »
I have been very happy with a truncated version of Peter's solution.  I use the wisk and hook (no beater) in my KA, water in the 35F range, adding the small amount of 105F water-ADY mix after nearly 3/4 of the sifted flour (KASL) is in the mixer.  Using 65% hydration and 0.25% ADY, I get 7+ days out of a dough.

Using the wisk and sifter allowed (required) me to increase my hydration, as it really lets the KASL absorb moisture.  The dough is really cold and sticky coming out of the KA, but 30 seconds worth of hand kneading create a non-sticky ball, which goes right into a 35F fridge with a thin EVOO coating.  I no longer check the dough ball temp before it goes in the fridge, but I'm sure it's 65F or lower.

Thanks again Peter,

Jack

Offline Taft

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2007, 11:50:18 AM »
Taft,

If you have been achieving finished dough temperatures in the range of 80-100 degrees F, this suggests several possibilities: 1) you are using warm water, or at least room temperature water or tap water, 2) you have a high (hot/warm) room temperature, 3) you are using one or more room temperature autolyse or autolyse-like rest periods, 4) you are using a bread machine or food processor, 5) if using a mixer, you are using high mixer speeds or long mix times, or 6) you are introducing delay into the process in some other way. A combination of these possibilities may apply in your case, and they definitely can have an impact on finished dough temperature.

The recommended finished dough temperature for the basic Lehmann dough formulation is about 80-85 degrees F. That is for a commercial environment using industrial coolers. For a home environment where a less efficient refrigerator is to be used, the recommended finished dough temperature is around 75-80 degrees F. Anyone who has made a few Lehmann doughs following the instructions given in the Lehmann NY style dough thread--which instructions originated from Tom Lehmann himself--knows that it is hard to get more than a few days life out of the dough, and the dough is quite likely to have a high degree of extensibility, especially when high hydration levels (e.g., around 63%) are used.

A good part of the work I have been doing at the new KitchenAid dough making thread has been to extend the useful life of the typical Lehmann dough--or any other comparable dough for that matter. I have done this by changing the sequencing of ingredients in the dough making process and also by trying to keep the finished dough temperature as low as possible, below 70 degrees F if possible. I have done this primarily by using cold or marginally frozen water, using low mixer speeds (but otherwise trying to prepare the dough as fast as possible), and getting the dough into the refrigerator as quickly as possible. In my case, I have even been using a metal container to help cool the dough down faster once in the refrigerator, and I place that container in the coolest part of my refrigerator compartment. As you can see, just about everything I do has a low finished dough temperature in mind. When making a standard Lehmann dough with a 2-3 day use period, I only work to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F and I use the normal dough preparation steps and sequences.

I believe the abovementioned combination of measures, along with the altered sequencing of ingredients, and especially the yeast, are responsible for the prolonged dough lives. The other steps I use, such as sifting the flour and using the combination of whisk, flat beater and C-hook, and some hand kneading, are for the purpose of achieving a higher quality, better handling dough, even at hydration levels of around 65%. By using both aspects of the dough preparation, I hope to achieve high quality doughs with longer than average usable lives, and a finished crust that has above average flavors and texture. In some respects, and maybe even several, the doughs most likely do not comport with standard dough preparation procedures. For example, yeast performance is undoubtedly compromised by the low dough temperatures and its addition at the end of the dough making process, but enzyme performance seems not to be adversely affected by the low dough temperatures. In fact, crust coloration and crust flavor after several days of cold fermentation have been first rate, and oven spring has been good. Even without adding sugar to the dough, the crust is noticeably sweet even after 8 days and longer. So there is plenty of residual sugar in the dough after all that time.

If youd care to elaborate further on the methods you have been using, we may be able to comment further on your specific situation.

Peter


Thanks for the response.

As for my process: I have been using your process as described in the KitchenAid thread pretty much exactly.  I've been underwhelmed with the flavor I've been getting out of the standard Lehman dough process with 24-48 hour ferment.  The 48 hour balls are alright, but nothing compared to the flavor coming from a 3+ day ball (or one using a starter).

I think my problem with consistency is in the temperature of the water going into the process.  The house has been rather cold lately (Chicago in springtime), so I was compensating by raising the temp of the water.  I think I have been way over-correcting, though (going as high as 55F).  I just made some dough Sat. and used 38F water and ended up with a 73F final dough temp.  The other factor is process length: it has gone on for nearly 20 minutes the last two tries--both times making enough dough for two 13" dough balls.  If I can get slightly cooler water and shave 5 minutes or so off the process time, I think I'll get to just under 70F, which is where I'm targeting.

But back to my original question: what ARE the effects of higher/lower final dough temps before going into the fridge.  Is it simply a matter of how much fermentation occurs?  Does it effect the crumb of the final product?  The airiness?  The amount of oven rise?

Thanks.

Taft

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2007, 06:47:27 PM »
But back to my original question: what ARE the effects of higher/lower final dough temps before going into the fridge.  Is it simply a matter of how much fermentation occurs?  Does it effect the crumb of the final product?  The airiness?  The amount of oven rise?


Taft,

Your questions do not have a simple, canned or stock answer. And the reason is that there is interconnectedness to everything. I discussed finished dough temperature at length in my last post, since that was your topic heading and the subject of many of your questions, but you really shouldn’t look at finished dough temperature in isolation. There are many other factors involved, including most notably the quantity of yeast used and the method of fermentation (e.g., room temperature fermentation, cold fermentation, or some combination of both). I have addressed the finished dough temperature/yeast quantity issue many times before in different contexts, including at this post which may help answer your questions:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3626.msg30547/topicseen.html#msg30547 (Reply 2). To the extent that the above post does not answer all or most of your remaining questions from your last post, allow me to make some general statements and comments that may help fill in some of the blanks.

All else being equal, a dough that has a high finished dough temperature will ferment faster than one with a lower finished dough temperature. Similarly, a dough that has a lot of yeast will ferment faster than one that has very little yeast. From these simple statements, it becomes obvious that a dough that has both a high finished dough temperature and a lot of yeast will ferment faster—both volumetrically and rate—than one that has a low finished dough temperature and a small amount of yeast. But there are other differences. A dough that has a high finished dough temperature and a high level of yeast will usually have a rather short lifespan and, for that reason, is usually used fairly promptly, typically within a matter of a few hours, or a bit longer if refrigerated before using. Some professional pizza operators refer to such a dough as an “emergency” dough or a “fast rise” dough. Depending on the amount of yeast used, the finished crust may have a pronounced “yeasty” flavor and aroma, but because of the short fermentation time there will be insufficient development of flavor- and aroma-contributing compounds that govern how the finished crust will taste, look and smell. It takes time for these compounds to develop. They can’t be developed in any meaningful way within a few hours. Also, the finished crust will usually have less color, because of insufficient residual sugar levels at the time of baking, and a less developed crumb structure and texture.

By contrast, a dough with both a low finished dough temperature and a low level of yeast will have a lot more time to develop the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavor, aroma, and texture. Natural sugars to feed the yeast will be gradually released by enzymatic performance from the damaged starch in the flour and be available at the time of baking to contribute to oven spring and crust color, and, in many cases, sweetness of the crust. Bacteria also come into the picture in a more involved way. The fermentation process can take place at room temperature or in a cold environment. As you know, yeast and enzymes behave differently at room temperature than in a cold environment, such as a refrigerator, and both have preferences as to temperature, but both will produce quite comparable results. It will just take longer for the dough that is kept in the refrigerator. As you know, in certain cases, the period of time in the refrigerator can be more than a week and still perform proficiently, yielding a finished crust of good color, flavor, natural sweetness, and texture.

But even finished dough temperature and yeast quantity can’t be viewed in isolation. They are overlays to everything else. As noted in the abovereferenced post, one also has to take hydration, flour type and salt levels into account. For example, all else being equal, a dough that has a high hydration will ferment faster and contribute to a more open and airy crumb than one with a low hydration. Similarly, a dough that has a lot of salt will ferment more slowly than one with little salt. A flour with a high protein content will tolerate a longer fermentation time than one with a low protein content and, if the dough is properly kneaded, will have a better developed gluten structure that can better retain the gases of fermentation and yield a better volume (rise) and oven spring (and it will also contribute more flavor and chewiness to the finished crust). But even that isn’t the end of it. You also have to also take the baking protocol into account, since the manner in which the pizza is baked can affect things like oven spring and the crispiness, color and flavor of the finished crust. As you can see, each item is like an instrument in an orchestra that has a defined role that must be balanced with all of the other instruments to contribute to a pleasurable overall performance.

Peter

Offline derbow

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2007, 12:54:10 PM »
Hey guys, for what it is worth, I have been doing some research myself on dough temperatures.  Along the way, I have found out how to accurately predict (with relative accuracy) the finished dough temperature before I even start making the dough.  Here is a brief description:

If you know your room temperature, flour temperature, water temperature, and friction heat generated by your mixing method, you can determine the finished dough temperature.  You need to start by determining how much friction heat your mixing method generates.  I think most of us have come to the point that we mix things pretty much the same way every time.  So, here is a formula for determining friction heat.

Just make a "sacrificial" ball of dough and record the room, flour and water temperature before you start.  When your normal mixing is finished, record the dough temperature.  Then, take your finished dough temperature and multiply it times 3.  From that number, subtract your room, flour, and water temperatures, and that will leave you with a friction heat temperature.  Here is an example:

Room temp = 75*
Flour temp = 72.4*
Water temp = 74*
Finished dough = 80*

80 (dough temp) x 3 = 240 minus 75 (room temp) minus 72.4 (flour temp) minus 74 (water temp) = 18.6* friction heat from mixing.

By figuring out the friction heat generated, you can do the formula to determine what water temperature you need for a specific finished dough temperature.  Lets say that for example, you want a finished temperature of 70*.  Here is what you would do:  Multiply the desired temperature by 3, and then subtract your room temp, flour temp, and friction heat temp.  The result will be the water temp you need for your dough.  Here is an example:

Room temp = 75*
Flour temp = 72.4*
Friction heat = 18.6*
Desired dough temp = 70*

70 (dough temp) x 3 = 210 minus 75 (room temp) minus 72.4 (flour temp) minus 18.6 (friction temp) = 44

This means that to get a finished dough temperature close to 70*, then you need to start with water that is 44*

If your mixing method generates more heat, then you could perhaps adjust the flour temperature by keeping it in your refrigerator.  That would keep you from having to use water that is almost freezing, which could negatively affect the yeast.  After I finish my dough, it goes immediately into the fridge.  I like the slower cold ferment.  The colder it is when it goes in the fridge, the slower the fermentation happens (as you all know).

If anyone else has a similar method, or one they have discovered to work with some consistency, I would like to know about it.

I hope this information helps someone.

Derrick
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 12:56:25 PM by derbow »

Offline November

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2007, 01:06:21 PM »
derbow,

I don't see how that could possibly work.  18.6 from friction alone?  I get a few degrees at most from 7 minutes of mixing and kneading.

- red.november

EDIT: You also seem to be making the assumption that air, flour, and water all have the same thermal conductivity and heat capacity.  That is not the case at all.  Water can carry more thermal energy than flour, and certainly a lot more than air.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 01:12:05 PM by November »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2007, 01:18:37 PM »
Derrick,

What do you do when you make a dough using a different dough formulation, or a different mixer, or different mixer speeds or a different dough batch weight? And how would you change things if you decide to use the sponge method, or use a fairly long autolyse? I think using the methods you describe work best in a commercial setting where dough formulations, mixers, speeds, dough batch sizes, etc., are pretty much fixed. In a home setting, we change things so much that it would take a lot of work to go through the calculations every time you make a dough batch. I still go through the drill in my dough making, but I just make an educated guess at the friction factor in each given situation. I may be off a few degrees in one direction or the other in the finished dough temperature, but that is usually good enough for me. I have discovered that there are other ways to compensate for finished dough temperatures that are higher or lower than I calculated.

As you will note from this article, http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml, using ice water isn't necessarily a deterrent to producing a good dough and won't harm the yeast if it is mixed in with the flour in advance. I once used all the formula water in a dough recipe in the form of ice cubes. Until they warmed up and melted, they rattled and bounced around my mixer bowl and made a real racket. It took so long for the ice cubes to melt and for the water to be taken up into the dough that the finished dough temperature was higher than I planned. I have also heard of freezing the flour, but I have not found that to make a big difference. I found that the flour warms up quite quickly once it is brought to room temperature.

Peter

EDIT (5/15/14): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml

Offline November

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2007, 01:25:21 PM »
Peter,

I've been meaning to address Tom's method of finished dough temperature calculation.  If this is where Derrick got his information from, I'll just address this issue as one I have with Tom's method.  I think you are right about its applicability to the home environment: it isn't.  His method would have wildly incorrect numbers if used to compare a 58% hydration dough with no oil to a 65% hydration dough with a lot of oil.  You just can't treat air, flour, and water with equivalency.

- red.november

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2007, 01:42:52 PM »
18.6 from friction alone?  I get a few degrees at most from 7 minutes of mixing and kneading.

November,

With my basic KitchenAid stand mixer (with the C-hook), I use about 12-15 degrees F for the friction factor, and that is with using low mixer speeds and a fairly standard dough batch size. When I originally experimented with finished dough temperatures when using a food processor and a bread machine that ran through the entire dough making cycle, I got friction factors of over 30 degrees F. Those numbers are what led me to use cold water and shorter kneads when using a food processor or bread machine. When hand kneading, I use only a few degrees for the friction factor. I thought something around zero would be the proper number, but I have not done any specific tests to test out that theory.

I'm not sure whether Derrick got his information from the Lehmann article but it seems consistent with what Tom recites. The Lehmann article has been posted and discussed on the forum several times before, including by me. For me, the calculations of water temperature have gotten me in the ballpark as far as finished dough temperature. Sometimes I get lucky and hit the finished dough temperature right on the mark.

Peter


Offline derbow

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2007, 01:48:29 PM »
Thanks guys for the feedback on my post.

November, I do realize that different ingredients have different different thermal properties.  Maybe I did not emphasis enough in my post the "relative" nature of my experiments.  This procedure gets things pretty close - plus or minus 2 or 3 degrees.

Peter, I have found a dough that I like, so I am not constantly changing things.  I spent a long time trying to get things consistent, and it is impossible to be consistent if you are always changing.  So, I have found a dough that I like, so that is what I make.  That goes for a NY style and a Chicago.  I do the same thing almost every time.  Even when I make 2 pizzas, I make 2 separate balls of dough because my bread machine that I use does not do a good job of kneading if I use over 16 oz of flour, so I make 2 balls with 10.2 oz of flour.

The source for what I posted earlier comes from this link on the King Arthur site:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/doughtemperatures.pdf


Maybe I did not explain things very well, but you guys can read that article for more information.

Hey, I am still learning this stuff!

Derrick

Offline chiguy

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2007, 01:53:12 PM »
 Hi all,
 I use this method ALL THE TIME with a fair amount of accuracy. I do however agree with November on friction factor being miscalculated especially with the home enviornment and small mixers. I experience little if any with my Kitchen Aid mixer.
 I have also found that room temp and finished dough temps must be close to maintain during the mixing and scaling stage. Meaning that if my kitchen temp is 65F and finished dough temp 80F, it becomes difficut to maintain a finished temperature of 80F the longer the dough is exposed to cooler(65F) room temperatures. Does this make sense??
 I find that i have had better sucess when my kitchen and finished dough temps are closer even if they are being adjusted in the formula. Example: 72F kitchen temp with a 78F finished dough temp may achieve closer results.
 I do not feel this is some controlled scientific experiment i am sure for the reasons November mentioned above. It must have some merits to be used by AIB even if only produce fairly accurate results. I mean what is a pizza operator to do to achieve accurate finished dough temperatures??
  

Offline November

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2007, 01:57:23 PM »
When I originally experimented with finished dough temperatures when using a food processor and a bread machine that ran through the entire dough making cycle, I got friction factors of over 30 degrees F.

There is something not right about that.  If it is a "factor", then be sure to keep in "factor" notation, as it is not a temperature.  I have never gotten anything close to a 12 increase in temperature, much less a 30 increase, from a bread machine.  I can only see a temperature rise of that magnitude if it's a closed system where the heat generated by mixing has no way of dissipating into the environment.  If we're dealing with temperatures that are less than room temperature, then it isn't the friction that's causing all the heat.  It's the fact that you are working with a cold dough in a warm environment and mixing forces more thermal conduction.  You could get the same effect by stretching your dough over a large surface at room temperature.  Temperature changes are also affected tremendously by the temperature gradient between dough and environment (e.g. air, mixer).  If the temperature difference between environment and dough is 30, of course the temperature of the dough might increase more than a 5 difference would.  A 5 differential is not going to produce 30 swings in temperature.  Physics books would have to be rewritten if that were the case.

- red.november
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 02:10:47 PM by November »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2007, 02:34:14 PM »
November,

One of the places I described my experiences using a bread machine is here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5486.html#msg5486 (Reply 51). In re-reading the post, maybe I was too casual in ascribing heat buildup in the dough to mixing/kneading and not taking into account and isolating the effects of the preheat cycle. As with my stand mixer and food processor, my focus was on the heat-contributing effects of the entire machine, so the distinction may have eluded me in the case of the bread maker. Back in 2004 when I posted, I was still in the learning process about a lot of things. I don't often use my bread machine for making pizza dough but if I were to let the machine run through its full, normal cycle today, I think I would still use the same types of calculations of water temperature.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 02:39:51 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2007, 02:53:31 PM »
Peter,

I understand the purpose of capturing the temperature change representative of the whole mixing process, but it's an illusion to assume friction has that much to do with the heat generated.  The difference between mixing in a plastic bowl and a metal bowl would have as much impact on temperature as friction would.

I was going to create a tool several months ago when I first encountered Tom's method, but I didn't go forward with it because I doubt many people want to go through the trouble of entering so many different variables just to determine the post-kneaded dough temperature.  I know I certainly don't care, as I can guess more accurately than most over-simplified calculations.  Maybe I will revisit the idea of a tool for this kind of calculation.  Right now I'm more concerned with temperature related effects on the dough after kneading.

- red.november
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 02:57:36 PM by November »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2007, 03:35:05 PM »
November,

If it is any improvement, General Mills refers to the frictional components as "bowl friction", as noted at page 6 of http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/PDFs/Website%20A49104%20Just%20Crust%20Brochure.pdf. But the calculations are the same as  described by King Arthur and Tom.

Peter

EDIT (2/4/2013): For an updated link to the General Mills brochure, see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/water-temperature-chart
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 12:29:16 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline November

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2007, 04:07:10 PM »
Peter,

I'm not as concerned about the terminology (although it is misleading) as I am about the method of calculation itself.  I know for a fact that when I use 68F flour, in a 68F environment, and a 104F water temperature, my finished dough temperature is 86F.  The longer I knead the dough, the more the temperature of the dough decreases because of thermal equalization between dough and bowl/machine/air, which if I were using this method, I would erroneously get a negative "friction factor."  So for the purpose of this discussion I'll just use 0F as my "friction factor."  In this case I have:

86 * 3 = 258 - 68 - 68 - 0 = 122F water temperature

I don't think so.

- red.november

EDIT: By the way, before a comment is made about how 0F isn't a valid friction factor based on the stated calculation, I was using 0F as an example of temperature difference when the dough temperature reaches equilibrium with the environment, at which point no amount of friction will keep the temperature at 86F, which is far above room temperature.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 04:43:53 PM by November »

Offline derbow

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2007, 05:31:01 PM »
November,

What would be wrong with using the formula I suggested and keep the friction factor as a factor (a positive whole number) and not a temperature.  According to the numbers you posted, the formula would still work.  You said that your water temp was 104*, then according to the formula for your 86* finished temp, you would have a friction factor of 18.  But if you treat the friction factor as a positive number, the formula works:

86 x 3 = 258 - 68 (flour temp) - 68 (air temp) - 104 (water temp) = 18 (friction factor)

86 x 3 = 258 - 68 (flour) - 68 (air) - 18 (friction) = 104F water temperature

I do not think that the friction factor is supposed to be understood as a temperature.  I also don't think that friction is supposed to be understood in its scientific sense as something that generates heat.  So, your formula with 122* water I think misses the point.  The formula above simply proves that if you always use 68* flour and have 68* air and 104* water, then the finished dough will be 86* as long as you mix it the same way every time.  So, for example, if one day your AC went out and it was 75 in your house, and your flour temp rose to 72, then you could simply adjust your water temp to 93*, mix it the same way, and you would still end up with a finished dough ball that was 86*

86 x 3 = 258 - 72 (flour) - 75 (air) - 18 (friction) = 93* (water)

For the record, November, I am not trying to pick a fight with you, I am just trying to understand how this all works myself.  I have to say that I have benefited from your posts in the past, and greatly respect the contributions you have made to this site.

I will be doing more experimentation with this in the future.

Derrick
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 05:32:40 PM by derbow »

Offline November

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Re: Dough temperature questions
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2007, 05:50:13 PM »
derbow,

Please read my "EDIT" again.  I can't use 18 as a friction factor because it doesn't represent the friction it would take to maintain 86F.  If my desired dough temperature was 86F, and if after kneading the dough for 12 minutes the dough temperature is 82F, how am I supposed to deal with that, use ever hotter water and kill the yeast?  It's about the materials that come into contact with the dough, and for how long, that make the real difference.  That's what needs to be the focus.

If I took your example and used 18 to determine what temperature of water I needed to reach 90F instead of 86F, I would end up with an even larger difference because the temperature would drop faster at higher temperatures.  The method as stated is linear, and does not fit a natural, non-linear thermodynamic profile.  The method will only work for a very narrow set of circumstances.

- red.november

EDIT:

So, for example, if one day your AC went out and it was 75 in your house, and your flour temp rose to 72, then you could simply adjust your water temp to 93*, mix it the same way, and you would still end up with a finished dough ball that was 86*

Except that it would not produce an 86F finished dough temperature.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 06:00:55 PM by November »


 

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