Author Topic: Papa Johns Clone Misfire  (Read 1847 times)

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Offline dough_boy

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Papa Johns Clone Misfire
« on: September 14, 2015, 04:28:22 PM »
So I set out to make the Papa Johns Pizza found here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58195#msg58195.

I followed the recipe and used the sauces found here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=994.msg8862#msg8862.

I have a 14.5 inch metalcraft pan and used the 604 g recipe for the breadsticks.
I have a 16 inch screen and upsized the recipe by 130%  for a total 789 g weight.
I attached photos of measurements and my calculations.
I bought the little measuring spoons for 8 bucks then got told by my wife, they are a novelty item not for actual use...lol
As the volume of the enlargement was about 1/3 and the recipe for was for 3 scoops, I just added a fourth scoop.  I mixed this in as described in the recipe and did not mix the dough for more than another minute or two...at speed 1.

I made the dough on Monday around noon (Labor Day).  I pulled it out of the fridge on Friday night (6pm) and about 45 mins later made the breadsticks.
They were great.  I skimped on the garlic margarine for some reason, despite having made a full cups worth, I only lightly covered the dough... and the final product could have used more... but it was there for dipping so no the end of the world...

Then I made the pizza, but with children running around, I forgot the pepperoni and had to pull the pizza out after a few minutes to throw them on.  I had the wife help to minimize how long it was out of the oven. 

The dough did not have much airy pocketing - it did not rise much on the rim.  The picture below shows the pizza rise vs the cheese stick rise, the cheese sticks rose better than the pizza. There were some thinner spots that I created when opening the pizza, it was still a bit cold on the bottom from being in the fridge.

Did I not let it rise long enough, warm up enough, did opening the oven wreck it?
Also, should I drill holes in the dough proofer that I have?
I put a folded piece of paper under the rim so it would stay open.
Should I use the stone or remove it?
How much should I mix the dough in the mixer total time?

« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 05:03:29 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline HBolte

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Re: Papa Johns Clone Misfire
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2015, 04:46:31 PM »
Pizza doesn't actually look bad.

Did you bake the pizza in the pan? It should go directly on the stone.

What do you mean by "folded paper under rim?"
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 04:58:54 PM by HBolte »
Hans

Offline dough_boy

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Re: Papa Johns Clone Misfire
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2015, 04:49:48 PM »
I baked it on a screen on the stone. Not on convection at 500 degrees...
I meant Aluminum Dough Proofing Pan with Cover Stackable, 96 oz - http://img4.foodservicewarehouse.com/Prd/500SQ/UpdateInternational_ADP-96.jpg
it has no air flow so i just propped it slightly with piece of folded paper.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 04:54:29 PM by dough_boy »

Offline HBolte

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Re: Papa Johns Clone Misfire
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2015, 04:59:25 PM »
No reason not to bake them directly on the stone.
Hans

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Johns Clone Misfire
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2015, 06:10:01 PM »
dough_boy,

To get the full effect of your photos, I deleted all of them from your original post, fixed the misoriented ones, and then put them all back into your post in the original sequence.

To make it easier for the members to see the full dough formulations, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html to reproduce your notes but in more complete form, for both the 14" size and the 16" size. They are as follows:
 
14" PJ Clone Dough Formulation
Flour (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (0.14%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.8%):
Total (170.49%):
354.44 g  |  12.5 oz | 0.78 lbs
200.26 g  |  7.06 oz | 0.44 lbs
0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
25.87 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.7 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
17.01 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.27 tsp | 1.42 tbsp
604.28 g | 21.31 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A

16" PJ Clone Dough Formulation
Flour (100%):
Water (56.5%):
IDY (0.14%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.8%):
Total (170.49%):
462.94 g  |  16.33 oz | 1.02 lbs
261.56 g  |  9.23 oz | 0.58 lbs
0.65 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
8.1 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
33.79 g | 1.19 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.44 tsp | 2.48 tbsp
22.22 g | 0.78 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.57 tsp | 1.86 tbsp
789.27 g | 27.84 oz | 1.74 lbs | TF = 0.1384653

For the record, your final numbers as shown in longhand in your opening post were correct. Your yeast conversion to get to the 16" size was also correct.

With respect to the size of the rim of the baked 16" PJ clone pizza, that is normal. You will note that I addressed the issue of rim size when another member raised that issue several years ago at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58433#msg58433. You can see my response in the following Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58438#msg58438.

My replies to the series of questions at the end of your post are as follows:

Did I not let it rise long enough, warm up enough, did opening the oven wreck it?
After a little over five days of cold fermentation, the dough should have risen sufficiently to make a pizza unless your refrigerator really runs cold. But the PJ dough balls as made in PJ's commissaries typically are usable at up to about eight days (but not within the first two or three days). Once the dough is removed from the refrigerator, you should let it warm up before trying to open up to form a skin. This step is often called tempering. The tempering time will depend on the temperature of the place where the dough is held. In the summer, when it is very warm, one hour of tempering may suffice. In the winter, it might take 1 1/2 -2 hours or more. You don't want to open the dough while it is cold. The hydration of the PJ clone dough is too low to allow opening while cold.

Opening the door of your oven to add the forgotten pepperoni slices should not have wrecked the pizza. You could always compensate by letting the pizza bake a bit longer to offset the heat lost in opening the oven door.

Also, should I drill holes in the dough proofer that I have?
No, there is no need to drill holes in your dough proofer. I may have drilled a hole in the lid of my storage container out of an excess of caution, but the amount of yeast in the PJ clone dough formulation is so small that it will not produce enough gases to force off the lid.

I put a folded piece of paper under the rim so it would stay open.
I see that you addressed that matter already. Under the circumstances, what you did was fine.

Should I use the stone or remove it?
You should remove the stone and bake on the pizza screen only since Papa John's bakes on only a screen and the original PJ clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58195#msg58195 was started to try to copy as much as possible the way that PJ does things even though a standard home oven is not the same as a commercial conveyor oven. However, if your oven has a convection feature, that might even be useful since it provides more top heat, much as a conveyor oven does. Since you mentioned the pizza stone, I might add that there are some members who have baked PJ clone pizzas directly on stones. If that is all that they have (that is, they do not have a pizza screen), my advice to them is to watch the bottom crust of the pizza as it bakes because the large amount of sugar in the dough can cause the bottom of the pizza to brown prematurely and even burn. It may also be necessary to lower the bake temperature and use a longer bake time to fully bake the pizza without burning or overly browning the bottom crust.

How much should I mix the dough in the mixer total time?
When I originally made the dough for the 14" size PJ clone pizza as described at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58197#msg58197, the total mix/knead time was about 7-8 minutes. However, I was using a method that was intended to do what I believe PJ was doing in its commissaries to be able to make a dough that could last for up to eight days. In your case with the 16" pizza, you might need another minute or two if you are using a standard KitchenAid stand mixer.

Overall, I think you did a nice job, and you are to be commended for getting all of the numbers right and for paying attention to my instructions. For your next effort at a PJ clone, if there is one, I can suggest an easier version of a PJ clone. The one you tried is by far the hardest one to pull off in a home setting.

Peter




Offline dough_boy

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Re: Papa Johns Clone Misfire
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2015, 08:45:36 PM »
I was hoping you would comment Pete-zza. Overall the pizza was good. The breadsticks just seemed to rise better and I was unsure if augmenting the recipe was straitforward with respect to yeast. That was my first time using a scale ( borrowed ).   It really was fun and despite the title of this post, it was pretty good. I would be happy to try an easier version of the papa johns. 

At this time I think they must be using some sort of plasticizer (a term more for concrete than dough) but has the intended meaning...

Also I am unsure if I can handle the long lead time on an ongoing basis.  I want to mess with the dough on weds or Thursday night after work and make pizza fri immediately after work.  My house is 75 degrees and my outside fridge is super cold. I just thermometer end a water bottle out there and it was 33 degrees. 

Thinking about putting dough in a cooler with ice pack fri morning so it's good to go when I get home... Also have an unused wine fridge that the may have temp controls or could be plugged into a clock timer that shuts off.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Johns Clone Misfire
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2015, 09:10:29 PM »
dough_boy,

Is there a particular size PJ clone pizza that you would like to make?

As for the PJ clone cheesesticks, you might want to take a look at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25603.msg258088#msg258088. There are a couple of cheesesticks dough formulations in that thread that worked out well for one of our members (Pythonic/Nate) who tried both formulations. I believe he used a pan instead of a screen, which is what PJ uses.

Peter

Offline dough_boy

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Re: Papa Johns Clone Misfire
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2015, 08:39:08 AM »
Yes, I have the 16" screen - so that is the size I will make.

I did see that cheese stick recipe by pythonic and that inspired me to make them.
I thought the recipes were very similar but I was planning to make on Monday and eat Friday so I went with your recipe.

And the cheese bread sticks rose fine... just the pizza did not... your crust is a slightly different color with more rise...

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Johns Clone Misfire
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2015, 10:12:06 AM »
dough_boy,

Of all the versions of the PJ clone dough formulations that I have come up with, I would say that the most popular one is the two-day version as set forth at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217. That version is for a 14" pizza. If you look at the second edit at the bottom of Reply 20, you will note reference to an updated version, with a link to that version. The main difference between the two versions is that in the updated version the dough ball weight is 20 ounces (give or take a quarter-ounce manufacturing tolerance) and there is more sugar than oil. I have realized from the beginning of my PJ clone work, and thereafter, that the PJ ingredients lists placed the sugar before the oil. However, I wasn't sure if PJ was listing ingredients in the way that the FDA requires, and I was unable to confirm that PJ was using more sugar than oil, as percents of the formula flour, through my analysis and research. Whereas at the beginning PJ did not make its dough ingredients public, over time, the ingredients used by PJ became public. You can see the various versions of their dough over the years at the bottom of Reply 492 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg260041#msg260041. It was because of later-acquired information that I came up with the updated version where there is more sugar than oil in the dough. However, because modest changes in ingredient quantities in most dough formulations are hard to detect, I do not think that one will be able to detect much of a difference between the two versions, but I note the differences for those who might want to try the updated version.

Whereas we know that a PJ dough ball for a 14" pizza weighs 20 ounces (plus or minus a quarter-ounce), I do not know the exact weight of the corresponding dough ball for a 16" pizza. I have heard 26 ounces and 26.5 ounces. And it does not necessarily follow that the extrapolation from one size to another is linear or proportional, so using the thickness factor for the 14" size for the 16" size might not produce that actual dough ball weight for the 16" size. It is quite common in the industry for pizza operators to use dough ball weights for their different pizza sizes to be non-proportional. But, in my opinion, whether one uses 26 ounces or 26.5 ounces for the 16" size, and given that there are slight variations from one dough ball to another because of manufacturing tolerances, it is unlikely that one will notice the difference. But, for our purposes, if we use 26 ounces and plug in all of the applicable baker's percents into the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html, this is what we get for the 16" size:

Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.62%):
441.08 g  |  15.56 oz | 0.97 lbs
247 g  |  8.71 oz | 0.54 lbs
1.24 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
8.38 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
24.48 g | 0.86 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.39 tsp | 1.8 tbsp
25.98 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.52 tsp | 2.17 tbsp
748.16 g | 26.39 oz | 1.65 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The preferred flour is one with a protein content of about 13.4-13.6%; the dough (26 ounces) is for one 16" pizza; the nominal thickness factor is 26/(3.141519 x 8 x 8) = 0.1293135; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

If you decide to use your cold refrigerator, you might increase the amount of IDY to about 0.32% or a bit more.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

Peter

Offline dough_boy

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Re: Papa Johns Clone Misfire
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2015, 10:13:31 AM »
So I went for the 2 day recipe as posted above by Pete-zza.

I increased the idy as per his recommendation.  I left the dough in the cold fridge Wed night and took it out Friday before 8am, put it in the wine cooler at 57 or so degrees when I left for work.  I did that so I would not have to wait so long when I get home from work to make the pizza (we have a young kids and need an early dinner).  When I got home I took it out for less than an hour and stretched it by hand to fit on the 16" screen.  The pizza had pineapple and sausage.

I think I know what I went wrong that first go round.  I used a rolling pin on the still cold dough... I think that knocked out the gas and left the crust kinda flat... (not on the bread sticks because the dough ball was smaller and warmed up a little quicker and just got pushed and pulled in the pan...)





 

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