Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe

[Peterubers]

I've made this Gino's recipe several times (about 5 or 6 times) and I truly agree with the 48 hour fridge rise it comes very close to the real Gino's crust -- about 85% of the way there.  Though the food coloring did not obviously contribute to any flavor/texture... it's a nice addition to this crust to bring the final product visually closer to the real deal. 

One thing I've noticed with all chicago deep dish crusts -- the less you manipulate the dough (i.e. less kneading and less handling/spreading during application into the deep dish pan just prior to baking) the better it is -- better in terms of less breadi-ness and more biscuit-like texture.

[foodblogger]

Good gawd all those pizzas look good.  I'm going to have to fire up my oven sometime soon.  I've been making my pizzas with a combo of sausage and pepperoni lately.  I can't buy good pizza at a restaurant here in Louisville but I'll be going to the Iowa Hawkeye game over the Sept 1st weekend in Chicago so I'll be sure to stop by some of my old haunts.   Gino's is of course first on the list.

I heard it moved back close to the original location.  I can't wait to check it out.
FB

[stonefree_pizza]

I have a couple of noob questions, if these are answered in other areas please send me links in the forum. Hello Everyone!

1. I have heard a lot of talk on Gino's crust, sauce, cheese consistency. But does anyone have a formulation and method for creation of the Gino's sausage slab. I don't live in Chicago anymore, and when i tell people about this they look at me like i have "lobsters crawling out of my ears".

2. Anyone tried freezing this doe, does it work, my goal would be to either freeze the doe or make prebuilt pizzas that can be frozen and vacuumn sealed for a easy to prepare taste of heaven.

Stonefree

[loowaters]

Welcome to the forum.

The subject of the sausage patty was discussed here:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4226.0.html

Freezing?  I've got a buddy that says his deep dish dough freezes and thaws OK.  He uses a version of the Gino's recipe at the beginning of this thread.  I've never tried it.

Loo

[dms]

1. I have heard a lot of talk on Gino's crust, sauce, cheese consistency. But does anyone have a formulation and method for creation of the Gino's sausage slab. I don't live in Chicago anymore, and when i tell people about this they look at me like i have "lobsters crawling out of my ears".

My local supermarket makes a mild italian sausage that's pretty close to what Gino's uses.  They sell it both in casings, and in bulk.  I buy it bulk.  To do a Gino's style sausage disk, I roll the sausage out on a flexible cutting board.  I normally make stuffed pies in a 10" spring form pan, and use about a pound of sausage.  (I'd use a bit less, 12 or 13 oz, but that's how they pack it, and I don't need leftover sausage, most of the time.)  I press or roll it out into a disk 12" in diameter, and then fry it in a skillet.  It's much easier to get the sausage off the cutting board if you start with a cold skillet.  I invert the cutting board over the skillet, bend the edge up, and slip a piece of dental floss between the board and the saussage.  I don't cook it all the way, but get it close.  That gets much of the water and excess fat out, which keeps the pie from being as soggy. 

[gitarslinger]

"Mixed with baking soda, it becomes double-acting baking powder, a leavening agent. 1 teaspoon baking powder = Blend 1/4 teaspoon baking soda plus 1/2 teaspoon cream of tartar 
 

This isn't quite right, IIRC.  Baking soda is a base, cream of tartar is an acid.  It takes both to make the bubbles that act as leavening.  Double-acting baking soda actually has two activating acids, a quick-acting one to get the leavening going at lower temperatures early in the baking, and another slower-acting one to keep it going as the temperature rises.  There are actually a number of different activating acids that can be used.

Jim

[gitarslinger]

One thing I've noticed with all chicago deep dish crusts -- the less you manipulate the dough (i.e. less kneading and less handling/spreading during application into the deep dish pan just prior to baking) the better it is -- better in terms of less breadi-ness and more biscuit-like texture.

The more you knead the dough, the more the glutenin and gliadin combine to form and strengthen the gluten structure, which produces firmness in bread.  Biscuits are made with lower protein (less gluten) flours and kneaded very little, then usually chemically leavened (baking powder).

All this makes me wonder if a lower-protein cake or pastry flour might be a better choice for a Gino's-style crust than a higher-protein bread flour?  Has anybody run a side-by-side?

The cream of tartar may well act to condition the dough to help develop the "biscuit-like" texture you mention.  Someone might try a side-by-side with and without cream of tartar, too.  I might do it myself, for that matter.  Some day.  :-)

Jim

[loowaters]

This isn't quite right, IIRC.  Baking soda is a base, cream of tartar is an acid.  It takes both to make the bubbles that act as leavening.  Double-acting baking soda actually has two activating acids, a quick-acting one to get the leavening going at lower temperatures early in the baking, and another slower-acting one to keep it going as the temperature rises.  There are actually a number of different activating acids that can be used.

Jim

What you're describing (accurately) is a double acting baking powder vs. what is decribed in my quote, which actually came from baking911.com, a single acting baking powder.  Either way, we're not adding baking powder to the recipe just the potassium bitartrate (potassium acid salt or just cream of tartar).  I still don't know exactly why it's there, but it is and I'm not moving it out because this crust comes out perfect every time I make it.

[loowaters]

All this makes me wonder if a lower-protein cake or pastry flour might be a better choice for a Gino's-style crust than a higher-protein bread flour?  Has anybody run a side-by-side?

Buzz has always contended that Pizzaria Uno uses cake flour.  Pretty sure Gino's uses AP.

[gitarslinger]

What you're describing (accurately) is a double acting baking powder vs. what is decribed in my quote, which actually came from baking911.com, a single acting baking powder.  Either way, we're not adding baking powder to the recipe just the potassium bitartrate (potassium acid salt or just cream of tartar).  I still don't know exactly why it's there, but it is and I'm not moving it out because this crust comes out perfect every time I make it.

But the quote specifically stated that baking soda + cream of tartar = double-acting baking powder.  That's what I was referring to.

I think you're right about leaving the cream of tartar in despite the lack of baking soda or any other base.  My suspicion is that it might have a dough-softening effect of some sort.  If all goes as planned, I'll be experimenting with a side-by-side tomorrow.  I'll let you know if I manage to make anything besides a brick.

Jim

[loowaters]

But the quote specifically stated that baking soda + cream of tartar = double-acting baking powder.  That's what I was referring to.

I think you're right about leaving the cream of tartar in despite the lack of baking soda or any other base.  My suspicion is that it might have a dough-softening effect of some sort.  If all goes as planned, I'll be experimenting with a side-by-side tomorrow.  I'll let you know if I manage to make anything besides a brick.

Jim

I guess it does say that.  I need to read the material that I've quoted better.  Good luck on the experiment.

Loo

[gitarslinger]

I guess it does say that.  I need to read the material that I've quoted better.  Good luck on the experiment.

Loo

The experiment was a success.  Scientifically speaking, I suppose all experiments are successful at something, but in this case I mean to say I managed to make a decent pizza out of the whole thing.

I used the recipe in loo's post that opened this thread for the dough (thanks very much for that!), but subbed short patent flour for the all-purpose.  A decent Wisconsin mozzarella with Bellino peeled tomatoes (chopped in a food processor) provided the basics, and a Johnsonville mild sausage patty was set off by sauteed mushrooms and black olives.

I made two dough balls, one with cream of tartar and one without, and ran a mini-pizza comparison through the oven.  The crusts were nearly indistinguishable.  Secret ingredient?  It did seem the cream of tartar crust was just a bit softer, but the difference was negligable.

For nit-picks, I made the crust too thick, neglected to pre-heat the pizza stone long enough (I'm using one of those aluminum pans), and the olive oil I used was a bit strong in flavor.  But it was still an excellent, restaurant-quality overall.  Many thanks to all contributors to this thread!

The thick dough prevented the overall crispness one expects from a Gino's or Giordano's crust, but the "biscuit-like" texture was certainly present.  I suspect the short patent flour and the very low hand-kneading times (no more than two minutes) contribute more to this than the cream of tartar.

I wound up with half a pizza left (it's a huge pan), and have the second dough ball waiting in the freezer.  I'll be eating well for a while, it seems.  :-)

Jim

[loowaters]

Jim, nice work on your efforts.  Too thick with the dough, that's easy to remedy.  How much did the dough balls weigh and what size pan were you working with?

[BTB]

"Short patent flour" . . . is what again?  Cake flour?  What exactly is it?  Has anyone else tried to use cake flour to duplicate the original Pizzeria Uno/Due's pizza (not Malnati's) as was mentioned above? 

When in Chicago this past summer for a few months, we again had some delicious deep dish pizzas from Pizzeria Due, Lou Malnati's, Pizano's, and Gino's East.  Due's was our group's clear number one choice, Malnati's a close second (while crust is similar, it still is distinctively different), Pizano's a close third, and Gino's East in a far last place (tried it twice).

I've had some success (and many failures) at making a Malnati's-like deep dish pizza and would like to switch and try doing a crust more similar to Pizzeria Uno & Due's.  While some on these threads have said Uno/Due's crust is the same as Malnati's, they definitely are not. 

[loowaters]

I've had some success (and many failures) at making a Malnati's-like deep dish pizza and would like to switch and try doing a crust more similar to Pizzeria Uno & Due's.  While some on these threads have said Uno/Due's crust is the same as Malnati's, they definitely are not. 

Like I posted above, Buzz has always said that Uno uses cake flour.  Try it and see what differences you find when you replace the AP with cake flour in your favorite Malnati's recipe.  Let us know how it turns out.

[dms]

"Short patent flour" . . . is what again?  Cake flour?  What exactly is it? 

Non-whole grain wheat flour is made from the interior of the wheat kernel.  The bran and germ are removed, leaving the endosperm.  The endosperm is ground.  The flour flour that is made from the center part of the endosperm is called "patent flour"  It's lighter in color, being farthest from the bran.  Short patent is made from the centermost bits (about half the endosperm), long patent is made from that plus the next bit.  It's protein content will depend on what sort of wheat(s) the flour is made from. 

Cake and pastry flours are usually made from short patent flours of low-protein wheat.

[gitarslinger]

Non-whole grain wheat flour is made from the interior of the wheat kernel.  The bran and germ are removed, leaving the endosperm.  The endosperm is ground.  The flour flour that is made from the center part of the endosperm is called "patent flour"  It's lighter in color, being farthest from the bran.  Short patent is made from the centermost bits (about half the endosperm), long patent is made from that plus the next bit.  It's protein content will depend on what sort of wheat(s) the flour is made from. 

Cake and pastry flours are usually made from short patent flours of low-protein wheat.

That's right.  The short patent flour I used was a lower-protein variety, intended for pastries, biscuits, etc.  Not as low as cake flour, but not as high as all-purpose.  Hudson Cream was the brand name.  It was available at the grocer, Baker's/Dillon's/Kroger (all the same outfit).

Jim

[gitarslinger]

Jim, nice work on your efforts.  Too thick with the dough, that's easy to remedy.  How much did the dough balls weigh and what size pan were you working with?

I knew I was going to be playing around with comparisons, so I intentionally shot for too much dough.  I started with 700g of flour for each, figuring I could trim the excess.  The pan is 16".  I didn't trim enough...  :-)

I followed suit with the rest of you and took pics of the finished pizza, but haven't taken the time to transfer them to the computer yet.  I'll post them here when I do.

Jim

[foodblogger]

Its good to see that you guys are experimenting with the recipe.  I really have not found the cream of tartar to make a huge difference.  I keep it in there just because I think it is used in the Gino's crusts.  One of these times I am going to make a version with cake flour to see how different it is.

The recipe, as posted, has a taste and texture almost identical to what you will get at Gino's.  I just got a takeout from the Gino's on Diversey about a month ago with some friends who have eaten my version of Gino's.  The similarity is uncanny.  I think you'll find that with a little practice and personalization you will quickly be making better pizzas than what you can get in any restaurant.  I love Gino's and I would never knock it but I've come to prefer my own pizza - owner's pride I guess.

Lately I have been experimenting a bit with stuffed crust.  I haven't posted my results and methods here yet out of laziness but I did put some pretty detailed instructions on my blog.  I borrowed the brown sugar idea from another post on this forum.  I'm not sure if I am going to keep it or not.  Last weekend I ate at my favorite stuffed crust place and I still have a way to go to get a crust that tasty.  Anyway best of luck with your pizzas everyone!

[Pete-zza]

foodblogger,

Welcome back.

I don't know if I mentioned it to you before but we now have a deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html. In can be used for both a standard deep-dish dough formulation and a stuffed version. It is quite a versatile tool.

Peter