Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe

[foodblogger]

Yeah pete I saw that calculator and it is awesome.  It has been in my bookmarks for a while and I use it now and again if I am making a new size pizza.  I never really left the site, I've been lurking but I've been incredibly busy in real life -- too busy to post about pizza.  Sadly I only have enough time to make pizza now.  Things should get a little better for me next July. 

I'm going to try a stuffed tonight with cake flour and a colorless, flavorless and cheap oil.  I'll use the calculator to be sure.

Edit:
PS - I love that the calculator includes a little box for yellow food coloring!  So hawt!

[Pete-zza]

I love that the calculator includes a little box for yellow food coloring!  So hawt!

foodblogger,

You were the one responsible for that addition. I came across that ingredient from one of your recipes when I was scouring deep-dish dough recipes to see what ingredients were being used. I also saw it (and, I believe, a second food coloring) in the ingredients list for the Gino's East dough recipe.

Peter

[foodblogger]

Figuring out that yellow food coloring was the reason Gino's dough was yellow is really the only real thing I have contributed to the home pizza world.  Once I found this board my pizza making improved by leaps and bounds.  The internet is such a great tool. 

I made my version of Gino's last night using cake flour.  I can describe the results with one word - aweful.  Oh well, it wasn't the first bad pizza I've made and it won't be the last.  Thank goodness I didn't have company over.  At least I've learned not to try anything new in public. 

[BTB]

Buzz has always said that Uno uses cake flour.  Try it and see what differences you find when you replace the AP with cake flour in your favorite Malnati's recipe.  Let us know how it turns out.

OK, a couple of weeks ago, I tried a loowaters-like Malnati's recipe in an attempt to more closely match the original Uno/Due crust with 47% hydration, soybean oil instead of corn oil, and cake flour instead of AP.  I cooked the pizza for 24 minutes on a pizza stone at 450 and while the pizza looked fairly good, it was not done enough.  Except for the outer crust, it was not crisp at all and probably could have been cooked for at least another 5 or 10 minutes.  The dough was very soft and pliable and was very easy to form and put into the pan, but very difficult to get out of the pan.  The cooked dough was so soft it actually fell apart as I was taking it out of the pan, which with other recipes had never been a problem for me.  Pictures below of the pizza.

This pizza in no way tasted like the original Pizzeria Uno/Due by the Medina Temple in Chicago.  It was not anywhere as good.  Actually it tasted remarkably similar to the disreputed "franchise" Uno's that have popped up across the country as well as the Uno's pizzas that are now available in many grocery stores.  Those franchise Uno's restaurant and grocery pizzas bear NO resemblance to the original Pizzeria Uno/Due pizza (except maybe that they are round!).  What a shame that their name is allowed to be associated with such a product.

My take away from this experiment . . . . . . . . . . . forget the cake flour! ! !

[foodblogger]

BTB - mine looked identical to that.  I had very similarly aweful results with cake flour. 

[BDoggPizza]

Loowaters:

Do you bake this one at 475* on the middle rack on top of a pizza stone or just on the rack no stone?  I see foodblogger does his on bottom rack at 450* right on the rack. 

I have a standard electric home kitchen oven and a stone.  I am dying to try my first GINO'S Clone and want to get it right.  I also have a non-stick PSTK pan from pizzatools.com, not a real seasoned pan from a pizza joint like some of you use.  That can make a difference I suppose.

Thanks for the help!
BDogg

[loowaters]

For this I use middle rack, no stone at 475. 

Unless you have a reflective pan, I'm thinkin' the stone isn't necessary for deep dish cooking.  My efforts show that direct contact with the stone helps it crisp up in those shiny pans.

[BDoggPizza]

Thanks for the reply Loo!

[bennychuck]

I made the recipe at the beginning of this thread a couple weeks ago, and it turned out fantastic.  Super close to the gino's crust (I ate there last week, more about that later).  the only thing I did differently was not use food coloring, and I used the 50% hydration level to be on the safe side (baking at high altitude).  i used a little over 2 T of olive oil in the bottom of my 12" deep dish pan and baked at 450 for a little over 20 minutes.  Sorry, no pics, as this pizza did not last long. 

I then ate at gino's (Superior location) in Chicago last week, and I've drawn two conclusions as a result of this visit.  First, based on the texture of the crust on the bottom, I'm almost 100% convinced now that they press the dough into the pan, rather than rolling it out first.  Second, based on the crunch you get in the crust, coupled with the texture, I'm almost 100% convinced that there's at least a little bit of semolina flour in the crust.  I could be wrong, but I plan on trying out this recipe with about 10% semolina next time to see what happens. 

[bennychuck]

Tried this again over the weekend, and, as usual, it turned out quite well.  It's been a while since I made this, and I did make a couple mistakes.  First, I didn't add quite enough salt to my sauce.  For sauce I used a 28 oz can of Delallo plum tomatoes, which I pull out individually and crush with a potato masher, then season appropriately with salt, pepper, oregano, basil, and a little sugar.  I sometimes add a little of the puree they come in if I feel I don't have quite enough sauce.  Second mistake, I think, was leaving the pie in the oven a couple minutes too long, which, from my experience, makes the cheese get a little rubbery and it doesn't have that nice gooey, melty quality.  Anyone else experience this ever?  I've had it happen a few times. 

As for the crust, though, it was magnificent as always with this recipe, and this was my first time concocting this with a scale and not with converted volume measurements.  I also did not use the yellow food coloring, as it does nothing for the actual taste of the crust.  My girlfriend is a vegetarian, so I topped it with cheese and roasted garlic.  I baked at 450* for a little over 20 minutes.  Here's some pictures:

[Squirrelman]

Hi, I thought it would be best to ask this question directly in this topic since it relates to it so here it is.

I don't have a dark ionized pan or w/e like Chicago deep dish recipes seem to generally use, would a cast iron pan work? I have read that aluminum pans don't work well generally and especially spring pans which could cause additional problems. I believe I made a deep dish in my cast iron pan twice before and it worked nicely but I've never tried a Chicago style pizza before.

also is there a big difference between Chicago style deep dish pizza and deep dish pizza you can find at some pizza restaurants and pizza hut? based on the pictures there seems to be a noticeable difference so I would like to try one but I wasn't sure of what to expect. one thing I have notices is they seem to resemble an actual pie more than the pizza i'm used to in that they have raised edges and much more sauce than usual pizza (or so it seems, correct me if I'm mistaken). oh and the food coloring is just for looks? I assume it can be omitted.

any other advice would be appreciated, I am reading through the comments for as much advice possible but I am a bit hesitant in trying this because of never having had a professional version before I really don't know what its suppose to come out like aside from the pictures and want to make sure it is authentic as possible for my first try. I looked into ordering one of the apparently famous frozen ones but they cost a bit much so I might try this recipe. thanks in advance for any tips.

[loowaters]

Squirrelman, good to see you'd like to take a stab at Chicago deep dish pizza.  Deep dish pizza is Chicago style, made in pan, sauce on top, pizza.  Pizza Hut tried it for a while about 10 years ago but abandoned it.  I can't think of any other type of deep dish but if in fact you're are thinking of pan pizza, many discussions on that style are available for viewing over on the "Thick Style" forum page.

For your pan, you can get away with a lighter colored pan if it's not too reflective or use a pizza stone on the lowest rack setting in your oven, or even on the floor of the oven if you have no exposed element.  Preheat the stone for a good 45-60 mins. as hot as the oven will go before baking the pizza.  The direct contact with the stone helps crisp up the bottom.  Or you can use the cast iron skillet.  Not my favorite but plenty have had success with it.

Yes, the food coloring can be omitted.

Loo

[Squirrelman]

thank you for responding, one other question, by the mixing explanation it sounds like you pretty much mix it like a cake just until combined and smooth, no gluten buildup? most recipes seem to have a 5-10 mixing period but for this recipe i'm assuming it would only take 1-3 minutes. Am I misunderstanding your instructions?

oh and on a side note the closest thing I've made to a Chicago style was what I assumed was a deep dish (made it at least a year ago) but seems to more closely resemble a thick pizza, or at least based on the pictures for Chicago style pizza it doesn't seem to fit in (not that it was intended to, I didn't even know about Chicago style pizza until recently)

thank you again, I'll give the recipe a try and should see how it comes out in ~2 days.

Edit: Here's what I am trying based on the deep dish calculator and your numbers, measured my pan to be about 12 in. on top. 10 on the bottom. and 2 deep. your thickness factor and I guessed the length up the pan to be 1.5 in.

--------------
Flour (100%):               265.85 g  |  9.38 oz | 0.59 lbs
Water (49%):                130.27 g  |  4.59 oz | 0.29 lbs
IDY (.75%):                  1.99 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.66 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%):             5.32 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.18 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Corn Oil (16%):           42.54 g | 1.5 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.45 tsp | 3.15 tbsp
Sugar (2%):                  5.32 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Cream of Tartar (1%):  2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.89 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Total (170.75%):          453.94 g | 16.01 oz | 1 lbs | TF = 0.1326
--------------

[loowaters]

You're right Squirrelman, you're not giving this a very long knead.  I just made a Malnati's clone today and kneaded that dough ball (820g) in KA w/ "C" hook on mix speed for 2:30 and it was perfect. 

Those numbers look fine for the pie.  Good luck with it and please post photos no matter how it turns out. 

Loo

[Squirrelman]

ok good, hehe no more setbacks yet, started the dough then realized I had tartar sauce instead of cream of tartar so had to run back to shoprite hehe. but the dough seems pretty good so I'll get back to you on Sunday.

 as for filling I'm not completely sure but based on the things I've read a can of crushed tomatoes with some seasonings,  mozzarella cheese and Parmesan mixed in should do, considering adding sliced pepperoni but not sure yet. looks like most people tend to make Chicago pizza into a meat lovers type usually with a large sausage patty and other meats but I'd rather stick with just cheese and tomatoes and possibly pepperoni. should I expect to use a full can of drained crushed tomatoes?

oh and when you formed your pizza and filled it, was the procedure pretty much the same as this post(first 4 pictures by BTB)? http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.0.html
 I had assumed it was the same general procedure but never hurts to make sure.

also now that I think of it, I plan to try my cast iron pan since it worked well with the thick pizza I made and is more likely to do well than my other pans, but if I remember right cast iron takes a while to heat up, and I think its safe to assume I can't preheat it for this type of pizza. then again cast iron probably doesn't take that much longer to heat than other pans so i'm probably over-thinking it and it won't be a problem.

[loowaters]

Oh man.  Yes, cream of tartar not tartar sauce! 

Using crushed tomatoes, I season with some sea salt and pepper and some extra virgin olive oil and a bit of crushed garlic.  Top the pizza with some parm before throwing it in the oven.  Pepperoni will be just fine if that's all you want on it.  Often times I just make a pepperoni pie myself.

Forming the pizza like BTB shows in the thread referenced is right.  One thing about Gino's vs. Malnati's, though, is that this is a thicker crust and the crust ring that they shape is much larger than the tightly pinched type at Malnati's that you see in that thread of BTB's.

You are overthinking the cast iron pan just a bit.  If it's a real concern about it coming to temp, start it on the bottom rack and move it up a slot a few minutes into the bake.

Loo

[Squirrelman]

Hey, I've been busy with school so didn't get a chance to reply back earlier. hmm well I've never had a professional Chicago style so I don't know what it should have been like, but for a first try it wasn't too bad, we couldn't eat it really but that was mostly 1 issue. I'll probably try it again eventually but atm I'm working on a different style pizza I've been trying to get right. well the things that seemed wrong with it were: A) the crust was pretty thin, not really sure why, maybe my dough calculations were too small but the pan was the size I put in so I'm not sure. or maybe that's just how thick it was suppose to be. B) The main issue was the sauce, it was way too overwhelming, I put way too much thinking it needed a lot because most pictures I've seen looked like they used a lot. C) I'm not sure how to describe the crust, I was expecting something king of biscuity but ended up kind of like a tough stale cracker texture... if that's a good description, I must have overmixed it or something, although I only mixed it until it was combined so maybe I did something else wrong. Again for a first try I though it wasn't bad and I know some things to fix for my next attempt. Oh and next time I think I'll try diced tomatoes rather than crushed. Here is a picture although the pictures color is odd and its really blurry and looks pretty gross actually, maybe I switched the settings by accident because it didn't look too bad unlike the picture.

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3296/dsc00983c.jpg

any advice would be good or any ideas why the crust could have been like I described it. for starters I am trying less tomatoes next time and using diced instead, maybe more dough and I'll try to see if anything I did could have overmixed it without me realizing it. other than that I'll probably try it again in a few weeks or something depending on how busy I am.