Author Topic: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe  (Read 24402 times)

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Offline gitarslinger

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2007, 12:31:19 AM »
"Mixed with baking soda, it becomes double-acting baking powder, a leavening agent. 1 teaspoon baking powder = Blend 1/4 teaspoon baking soda plus 1/2 teaspoon cream of tartar 
 


This isn't quite right, IIRC.  Baking soda is a base, cream of tartar is an acid.  It takes both to make the bubbles that act as leavening.  Double-acting baking soda actually has two activating acids, a quick-acting one to get the leavening going at lower temperatures early in the baking, and another slower-acting one to keep it going as the temperature rises.  There are actually a number of different activating acids that can be used.

Jim


Offline gitarslinger

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2007, 12:41:35 AM »

One thing I've noticed with all chicago deep dish crusts -- the less you manipulate the dough (i.e. less kneading and less handling/spreading during application into the deep dish pan just prior to baking) the better it is -- better in terms of less breadi-ness and more biscuit-like texture.

The more you knead the dough, the more the glutenin and gliadin combine to form and strengthen the gluten structure, which produces firmness in bread.  Biscuits are made with lower protein (less gluten) flours and kneaded very little, then usually chemically leavened (baking powder).

All this makes me wonder if a lower-protein cake or pastry flour might be a better choice for a Gino's-style crust than a higher-protein bread flour?  Has anybody run a side-by-side?

The cream of tartar may well act to condition the dough to help develop the "biscuit-like" texture you mention.  Someone might try a side-by-side with and without cream of tartar, too.  I might do it myself, for that matter.  Some day.  :-)

Jim

Offline loowaters

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2007, 12:06:30 PM »
This isn't quite right, IIRC.  Baking soda is a base, cream of tartar is an acid.  It takes both to make the bubbles that act as leavening.  Double-acting baking soda actually has two activating acids, a quick-acting one to get the leavening going at lower temperatures early in the baking, and another slower-acting one to keep it going as the temperature rises.  There are actually a number of different activating acids that can be used.

Jim

What you're describing (accurately) is a double acting baking powder vs. what is decribed in my quote, which actually came from baking911.com, a single acting baking powder.  Either way, we're not adding baking powder to the recipe just the potassium bitartrate (potassium acid salt or just cream of tartar).  I still don't know exactly why it's there, but it is and I'm not moving it out because this crust comes out perfect every time I make it.
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Offline loowaters

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2007, 12:09:05 PM »
All this makes me wonder if a lower-protein cake or pastry flour might be a better choice for a Gino's-style crust than a higher-protein bread flour?  Has anybody run a side-by-side?

Buzz has always contended that Pizzaria Uno uses cake flour.  Pretty sure Gino's uses AP.
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Offline gitarslinger

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2007, 05:36:04 PM »
What you're describing (accurately) is a double acting baking powder vs. what is decribed in my quote, which actually came from baking911.com, a single acting baking powder.  Either way, we're not adding baking powder to the recipe just the potassium bitartrate (potassium acid salt or just cream of tartar).  I still don't know exactly why it's there, but it is and I'm not moving it out because this crust comes out perfect every time I make it.

But the quote specifically stated that baking soda + cream of tartar = double-acting baking powder.  That's what I was referring to.

I think you're right about leaving the cream of tartar in despite the lack of baking soda or any other base.  My suspicion is that it might have a dough-softening effect of some sort.  If all goes as planned, I'll be experimenting with a side-by-side tomorrow.  I'll let you know if I manage to make anything besides a brick.

Jim

Offline loowaters

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2007, 05:42:34 AM »
But the quote specifically stated that baking soda + cream of tartar = double-acting baking powder.  That's what I was referring to.

I think you're right about leaving the cream of tartar in despite the lack of baking soda or any other base.  My suspicion is that it might have a dough-softening effect of some sort.  If all goes as planned, I'll be experimenting with a side-by-side tomorrow.  I'll let you know if I manage to make anything besides a brick.

Jim

I guess it does say that.  I need to read the material that I've quoted better.  Good luck on the experiment.

Loo
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Offline gitarslinger

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2007, 10:23:50 PM »
I guess it does say that.  I need to read the material that I've quoted better.  Good luck on the experiment.

Loo

The experiment was a success.  Scientifically speaking, I suppose all experiments are successful at something, but in this case I mean to say I managed to make a decent pizza out of the whole thing.

I used the recipe in loo's post that opened this thread for the dough (thanks very much for that!), but subbed short patent flour for the all-purpose.  A decent Wisconsin mozzarella with Bellino peeled tomatoes (chopped in a food processor) provided the basics, and a Johnsonville mild sausage patty was set off by sauteed mushrooms and black olives.

I made two dough balls, one with cream of tartar and one without, and ran a mini-pizza comparison through the oven.  The crusts were nearly indistinguishable.  Secret ingredient?  It did seem the cream of tartar crust was just a bit softer, but the difference was negligable.

For nit-picks, I made the crust too thick, neglected to pre-heat the pizza stone long enough (I'm using one of those aluminum pans), and the olive oil I used was a bit strong in flavor.  But it was still an excellent, restaurant-quality overall.  Many thanks to all contributors to this thread!

The thick dough prevented the overall crispness one expects from a Gino's or Giordano's crust, but the "biscuit-like" texture was certainly present.  I suspect the short patent flour and the very low hand-kneading times (no more than two minutes) contribute more to this than the cream of tartar.

I wound up with half a pizza left (it's a huge pan), and have the second dough ball waiting in the freezer.  I'll be eating well for a while, it seems.  :-)

Jim

Offline loowaters

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2007, 06:18:10 AM »
Jim, nice work on your efforts.  Too thick with the dough, that's easy to remedy.  How much did the dough balls weigh and what size pan were you working with?

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Offline BTB

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2007, 09:00:51 AM »
"Short patent flour" . . . is what again?  Cake flour?  What exactly is it?  Has anyone else tried to use cake flour to duplicate the original Pizzeria Uno/Due's pizza (not Malnati's) as was mentioned above? 

When in Chicago this past summer for a few months, we again had some delicious deep dish pizzas from Pizzeria Due, Lou Malnati's, Pizano's, and Gino's East.  Due's was our group's clear number one choice, Malnati's a close second (while crust is similar, it still is distinctively different), Pizano's a close third, and Gino's East in a far last place (tried it twice).

I've had some success (and many failures) at making a Malnati's-like deep dish pizza and would like to switch and try doing a crust more similar to Pizzeria Uno & Due's.  While some on these threads have said Uno/Due's crust is the same as Malnati's, they definitely are not. 


Offline loowaters

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2007, 10:31:18 AM »
I've had some success (and many failures) at making a Malnati's-like deep dish pizza and would like to switch and try doing a crust more similar to Pizzeria Uno & Due's.  While some on these threads have said Uno/Due's crust is the same as Malnati's, they definitely are not. 

Like I posted above, Buzz has always said that Uno uses cake flour.  Try it and see what differences you find when you replace the AP with cake flour in your favorite Malnati's recipe.  Let us know how it turns out.
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Offline dms

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2007, 01:50:03 PM »
"Short patent flour" . . . is what again?  Cake flour?  What exactly is it? 

Non-whole grain wheat flour is made from the interior of the wheat kernel.  The bran and germ are removed, leaving the endosperm.  The endosperm is ground.  The flour flour that is made from the center part of the endosperm is called "patent flour"  It's lighter in color, being farthest from the bran.  Short patent is made from the centermost bits (about half the endosperm), long patent is made from that plus the next bit.  It's protein content will depend on what sort of wheat(s) the flour is made from. 

Cake and pastry flours are usually made from short patent flours of low-protein wheat.

Offline gitarslinger

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2007, 06:15:58 PM »
Non-whole grain wheat flour is made from the interior of the wheat kernel.  The bran and germ are removed, leaving the endosperm.  The endosperm is ground.  The flour flour that is made from the center part of the endosperm is called "patent flour"  It's lighter in color, being farthest from the bran.  Short patent is made from the centermost bits (about half the endosperm), long patent is made from that plus the next bit.  It's protein content will depend on what sort of wheat(s) the flour is made from. 

Cake and pastry flours are usually made from short patent flours of low-protein wheat.

That's right.  The short patent flour I used was a lower-protein variety, intended for pastries, biscuits, etc.  Not as low as cake flour, but not as high as all-purpose.  Hudson Cream was the brand name.  It was available at the grocer, Baker's/Dillon's/Kroger (all the same outfit).

Jim

Offline gitarslinger

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2007, 06:19:33 PM »
Jim, nice work on your efforts.  Too thick with the dough, that's easy to remedy.  How much did the dough balls weigh and what size pan were you working with?



I knew I was going to be playing around with comparisons, so I intentionally shot for too much dough.  I started with 700g of flour for each, figuring I could trim the excess.  The pan is 16".  I didn't trim enough...  :-)

I followed suit with the rest of you and took pics of the finished pizza, but haven't taken the time to transfer them to the computer yet.  I'll post them here when I do.

Jim

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2007, 04:48:16 PM »
Its good to see that you guys are experimenting with the recipe.  I really have not found the cream of tartar to make a huge difference.  I keep it in there just because I think it is used in the Gino's crusts.  One of these times I am going to make a version with cake flour to see how different it is.

The recipe, as posted, has a taste and texture almost identical to what you will get at Gino's.  I just got a takeout from the Gino's on Diversey about a month ago with some friends who have eaten my version of Gino's.  The similarity is uncanny.  I think you'll find that with a little practice and personalization you will quickly be making better pizzas than what you can get in any restaurant.  I love Gino's and I would never knock it but I've come to prefer my own pizza - owner's pride I guess.

Lately I have been experimenting a bit with stuffed crust.  I haven't posted my results and methods here yet out of laziness but I did put some pretty detailed instructions on my blog.  I borrowed the brown sugar idea from another post on this forum.  I'm not sure if I am going to keep it or not.  Last weekend I ate at my favorite stuffed crust place and I still have a way to go to get a crust that tasty.  Anyway best of luck with your pizzas everyone!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2007, 05:20:30 PM »
foodblogger,

Welcome back.

I don't know if I mentioned it to you before but we now have a deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html. In can be used for both a standard deep-dish dough formulation and a stuffed version. It is quite a versatile tool.

Peter

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2007, 07:49:05 AM »
Yeah pete I saw that calculator and it is awesome.  It has been in my bookmarks for a while and I use it now and again if I am making a new size pizza.  I never really left the site, I've been lurking but I've been incredibly busy in real life -- too busy to post about pizza.  Sadly I only have enough time to make pizza now.  Things should get a little better for me next July. 

I'm going to try a stuffed tonight with cake flour and a colorless, flavorless and cheap oil.  I'll use the calculator to be sure.

Edit:
PS - I love that the calculator includes a little box for yellow food coloring!  So hawt!
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 07:56:05 AM by foodblogger »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2007, 09:47:02 AM »
I love that the calculator includes a little box for yellow food coloring!  So hawt!

foodblogger,

You were the one responsible for that addition. I came across that ingredient from one of your recipes when I was scouring deep-dish dough recipes to see what ingredients were being used. I also saw it (and, I believe, a second food coloring) in the ingredients list for the Gino's East dough recipe.

Peter


Offline foodblogger

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2007, 07:17:40 AM »
Figuring out that yellow food coloring was the reason Gino's dough was yellow is really the only real thing I have contributed to the home pizza world.  Once I found this board my pizza making improved by leaps and bounds.  The internet is such a great tool. 

I made my version of Gino's last night using cake flour.  I can describe the results with one word - aweful.  Oh well, it wasn't the first bad pizza I've made and it won't be the last.  Thank goodness I didn't have company over.  At least I've learned not to try anything new in public.  :pizza:

Offline BTB

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2007, 11:18:40 AM »
Quote
Buzz has always said that Uno uses cake flour.  Try it and see what differences you find when you replace the AP with cake flour in your favorite Malnati's recipe.  Let us know how it turns out.

OK, a couple of weeks ago, I tried a loowaters-like Malnati's recipe in an attempt to more closely match the original Uno/Due crust with 47% hydration, soybean oil instead of corn oil, and cake flour instead of AP.  I cooked the pizza for 24 minutes on a pizza stone at 450 and while the pizza looked fairly good, it was not done enough.  Except for the outer crust, it was not crisp at all and probably could have been cooked for at least another 5 or 10 minutes.  The dough was very soft and pliable and was very easy to form and put into the pan, but very difficult to get out of the pan.  The cooked dough was so soft it actually fell apart as I was taking it out of the pan, which with other recipes had never been a problem for me.  Pictures below of the pizza.

This pizza in no way tasted like the original Pizzeria Uno/Due by the Medina Temple in Chicago.  It was not anywhere as good.  Actually it tasted remarkably similar to the disreputed "franchise" Uno's that have popped up across the country as well as the Uno's pizzas that are now available in many grocery stores.  Those franchise Uno's restaurant and grocery pizzas bear NO resemblance to the original Pizzeria Uno/Due pizza (except maybe that they are round!).  What a shame that their name is allowed to be associated with such a product.

My take away from this experiment . . . . . . . . . . . forget the cake flour! ! !

Offline foodblogger

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2007, 11:49:46 AM »
BTB - mine looked identical to that.  I had very similarly aweful results with cake flour. 

Offline BDoggPizza

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2008, 11:55:41 AM »
Loowaters:

Do you bake this one at 475* on the middle rack on top of a pizza stone or just on the rack no stone?  I see foodblogger does his on bottom rack at 450* right on the rack. 

I have a standard electric home kitchen oven and a stone.  I am dying to try my first GINO'S Clone and want to get it right.  I also have a non-stick PSTK pan from pizzatools.com, not a real seasoned pan from a pizza joint like some of you use.  That can make a difference I suppose.

Thanks for the help!
BDogg
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 12:05:22 PM by BDoggPizza »

Offline loowaters

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2008, 09:12:39 PM »
For this I use middle rack, no stone at 475. 

Unless you have a reflective pan, I'm thinkin' the stone isn't necessary for deep dish cooking.  My efforts show that direct contact with the stone helps it crisp up in those shiny pans.
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Offline BDoggPizza

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2008, 10:01:48 PM »
Thanks for the reply Loo!

Offline bennychuck

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2009, 03:19:58 PM »
I made the recipe at the beginning of this thread a couple weeks ago, and it turned out fantastic.  Super close to the gino's crust (I ate there last week, more about that later).  the only thing I did differently was not use food coloring, and I used the 50% hydration level to be on the safe side (baking at high altitude).  i used a little over 2 T of olive oil in the bottom of my 12" deep dish pan and baked at 450 for a little over 20 minutes.  Sorry, no pics, as this pizza did not last long. 

I then ate at gino's (Superior location) in Chicago last week, and I've drawn two conclusions as a result of this visit.  First, based on the texture of the crust on the bottom, I'm almost 100% convinced now that they press the dough into the pan, rather than rolling it out first.  Second, based on the crunch you get in the crust, coupled with the texture, I'm almost 100% convinced that there's at least a little bit of semolina flour in the crust.  I could be wrong, but I plan on trying out this recipe with about 10% semolina next time to see what happens. 

Offline bennychuck

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Re: Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2010, 12:35:05 PM »
Tried this again over the weekend, and, as usual, it turned out quite well.  It's been a while since I made this, and I did make a couple mistakes.  First, I didn't add quite enough salt to my sauce.  For sauce I used a 28 oz can of Delallo plum tomatoes, which I pull out individually and crush with a potato masher, then season appropriately with salt, pepper, oregano, basil, and a little sugar.  I sometimes add a little of the puree they come in if I feel I don't have quite enough sauce.  Second mistake, I think, was leaving the pie in the oven a couple minutes too long, which, from my experience, makes the cheese get a little rubbery and it doesn't have that nice gooey, melty quality.  Anyone else experience this ever?  I've had it happen a few times. 

As for the crust, though, it was magnificent as always with this recipe, and this was my first time concocting this with a scale and not with converted volume measurements.  I also did not use the yellow food coloring, as it does nothing for the actual taste of the crust.  My girlfriend is a vegetarian, so I topped it with cheese and roasted garlic.  I baked at 450* for a little over 20 minutes.  Here's some pictures:

« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 12:36:49 PM by bennychuck »


 

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