Props: Foodblogger's Gino's East recipe

[loowaters]

I haven't made this in some time and revisted it this weekend.  It's a modification of this recipe http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2620.0.html

I've tinkered with this by dropping the hydration to as low as 45% (like my Malnati's) but I've found a nice hydration level at 49%, probably because there are more dry ingredients to absorb the additional water (cream of tartar, sugar).  That one percent difference from Foodblogger's original recipe doesn't sound like much but it just makes it easier for the dough to keep form once in the pan, rather than drooping on the sides.  I've also eliminated salt from the recipe as the ingredient listing at the Gino's mail order website indicates there is none.

I made two pies, a 14" and the 12" pictured.  The 12" is half pepperoni, half chunk sweet italian sausage and fresh, thinly sliced garlic.  It's been topped with (a little too much) grated parm.

Back to the setup.  I've always had fits with the dough sliding around using oil in the pan, that's one of the reason I use Crisco for my Malnati's recipe.  I had just a little Crisco left in my small tub and decided to whisk it with EV olive oil.  I greased up the bottom of the pans with that mixture.  It made a nice paste and gave me just what I was looking for, olive oil taste without the slipping and sliding from just using the oil.

The first pie to go in was the 14" that was quartered up with different ingredients to satify different members of the family.  That was done in my 14 x 2 black, hardcoat pan. Cooked at 475* for 20 mins. on the middle rack of my oven and came out beautifully.

The second one was the 12" cooked in the shiny aluminum pan.  I've never used this pan without placing it on the stone...until this time.  It received an additional 5 mins. in the oven (25 total) and the results were not good.  The only reason that I have just one pic is because seconds after the picture was taken, the pie was virtually mutilated removing it from the pan.  WOW!  The bottom was just....bready.  Not doughy, bready, like soft white bread.  BAD!  I've never experienced what some of you already have.  I never really bought into exactly how bad it was but the reflective power of this pan, in a side by side with the pie I had just made that turned out perfect, was a pie killer.  I guess because it had always been in contact with the stone it wasn't as much of an issue.  Now without it...HMMM?  Well, I can't have that again so this pan is gone and a stop at my restaurant supply store is now in order for a 12" hardcoat anodized pan.  A lot more credit goes to the pan than I ever thought.  The pan ruined a good pie.  I reheated leftovers stovetop on a skillet and it tasted just fine once I crisped up the bottom.

Also, big thanks to whomever suggested (I think it was Randy but I can't find it) using the Wal-Mart house label crushed tomatoes.  I needed them for the 12" pie as an emergency (I had them on hand just for this purpose) after needing more Centos for my 14" than anticipated.  They are surprisingly good and I'm sure I'll use them again.

Here's the entire recipe that I followed:

Gino's East

100% AP Flour
49 water
16 corn oil
2 evoo
2 sugar
1 cream of tartar
.75 yellow food coloring
.75 IDY

Thickness factor of .13

1)  Dissolve yellow food coloring in water.
2)  Add half of the flour and the yeast.
3)  Stir until mixed.
4)  Cover bowl with plastic wrap.  Let sit for 20 minutes.
5)  Add the rest of the ingredients and stir until combined.
6)  Shape into a ball
7)  Place dough ball in a gallon ziplock bag and let proof in the fridge for 48 hours.

Again, big props to Foodblogger on this recipe.  I've adjusted it just a touch.

Loo

[BTB]

This past weekend I, too, made two deep dish pizzas.  I was going to make one Malnati style, and since my son's favorite is Gino's East, I attempted to make one in the Gino's East style.  The dough for the Gino's East pizza, however, did not come out well at all and I ended up making a second Malnati's style dough ball instead. 

I'm not certain what happened but the Gino's East dough was so extremely sticky that I couldn't get it off my fingers or the bowl very well, nor form a dough ball easily. Here was my Gino's East recipe:

     Flour  100% (50% KAAP, 50% KABF)
     Water  50%
     ADY  .70%
     Salt  .80%
     Ex. V. Olive Oil  2.75%
     Corn Oil  15%
     Sugar  2%
     Cream of Tartar  .85%
     Yellow Food Coloring  1/4 tsp

Some of the Gino's East recipes had bread flour and some did not, so I (maybe foolishly) did half and half.  After kneading for a few minutes and making a mess out of it all, I managed to put it into a zip lock bag and into the refrigerator.  It was so messy and sticky (even after adding some additional flour), however, that I decided not to use it and quickly made another Malnati style dough ball, which turned out much better (i.e., not sticky and messy).  I am perplexed on what happened and figure that I must have goofed on the measurements or something (I had just bought a new digital scale).  And I didn't follow a 2 step procedure like you did but instead just mixed all the dry ingredients into the wet ingredients.  I don't know if that could have brought about the poor result that I had.

The Malnati recipe that I used was I think close to one of yours:

     Flour  100%  (KAAP)
     Water  47%
     Corn Oil  18%
     Reg. Olive Oil  3.5%
     ADY  .5%

After Kneading for only about a minute or less and 24 hours in the refrigerator, I baked the two Malnati style deep dishes at 450 degrees on the bottom shelf for about 25 minutes.  I had two different pans:  one an Ekco Baker's Secret Air Insulated pan (dark gray colored - NOT teflon) that I have very successfully used before; the other was one that I used for the first time - a heavy Cuisinart pan with a very dark exterior but a dull silver-like interior (my wife found it on a super sale somewhere).  While both of the Malnati's pizzas turned out pretty good, I was surprised to see that the new Cuisinart with it's silver interior actually performed a little better making the crust a little more golden brown than the Baker's Secret.  There was one more important  difference, however.  I usually put Crisco in the pan, so this time I did the Baker's Secret pan with Crisco and the Cuisinart with olive oil to see the difference.  My wife and son preferred the one with the olive oil, but I had a slight, but not significant, preference for the one made with Crisco. 

While we enjoyed the pizzas very much, I am still looking for a more tastier and especially flakier crust that I seem to remember from my many times eating at Lou Malnati's Lincolnwood restaurant.  But I'm getting close.
     

         

[chiguy]

I'm not certain what happened but the Gino's East dough was so extremely sticky that I couldn't get it off my fingers or the bowl very well, nor form a dough ball easily. Here was my Gino's East recipe:

     Flour  100% (50% KAAP, 50% KABF)
     Water  50%
     ADY  .70%
     Salt  .80%
     Ex. V. Olive Oil  2.75%
     Corn Oil  15%
     Sugar  2%
     Cream of Tartar  .85%
     Yellow Food Coloring  1/4 tsp

You should have not experienced a sticky dough with this formulation, it is possible that you made a mistake weighing or measuring. It happens once in a while even though i swear i calculated the right weight??
                                                                          Chiguy

[loowaters]

I am perplexed on what happened and figure that I must have goofed on the measurements or something (I had just bought a new digital scale).  And I didn't follow a 2 step procedure like you did but instead just mixed all the dry ingredients into the wet ingredients.  I don't know if that could have brought about the poor result that I had.

I think you're right and as Chiguy said, we've all done it.  You know how dry this should be and could've just added more flour to the dough to get near the hydration you're looking for.  The finished dough feels about as firm as the Malnati dough just less oily.  About the autolyse, I cut that short by a few minutes myself, so it shouldn't make a big difference.

Try it again, it's a good crust but not near as rich as the Malnati crust.

Loo

[pizzoid]

Loo:

What's the function of the Cream of Tartar in your recipe? Flavor?

I've sometimes wondered if the taste I can't reproduce is due to the type of oil I'm using, or if its something missing, like baking powder.

- pizzoid

[loowaters]

Loo:

What's the function of the Cream of Tartar in your recipe? Flavor?

I've sometimes wondered if the taste I can't reproduce is due to the type of oil I'm using, or if its something missing, like baking powder.

- pizzoid

Our grandmothers have at least one old cookie recipe with cream of tartar in it.  I found this explanation at baking911.com:

"Cream of tartar performs many functions. It used to give a creamier texture to sugary things like candy and frosting and to stabilize and increase the volume of beaten egg whites.

 

"Is used to stabilize and can be used to increase the volume when whipping egg whites. There is no exact substitute, but you can add a pinch of salt instead. Salt has a less stabilizing effect. 
 
"Performs yet another function in candy-making. Its acidity affects sugar as it cooks, preventing unwanted crystallization creating a creamier texture.  .   
 
"Mixed with baking soda, it becomes double-acting baking powder, a leavening agent. 1 teaspoon baking powder = Blend 1/4 teaspoon baking soda plus 1/2 teaspoon cream of tartar 
 
"A teaspoon of baking powder will substitute for 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda plus 1/2 teaspoon of cream of tartar. 
 
"It is also used to reduce discoloration in boiled vegetables such as artichokes-just add half a teaspoon to the water."

I do know that when I spoke with a guy that used to manage the old Gino's on Superior, he said that cream of tartar was "an important ingredient" that most weren't aware of.

Loo
 

[pizzoid]

Thanks! I see I'm skimming a little too fast and was asking Loo, even though it's Foodbloggers recipe. My apologies, and Foodblogger, might I ask the same question of you - is the cream of tartar there for flavor, or are you actually including it for leavening (or a bit of both)?

Thanks, Pizzoid

[buzz]

I can't tell by your measurements exactly how many TBS of oil you used, but the Gino's east crust is very similar to Giordano's (except for the use of EVOO), which means a ratio of 1 TBS oil: 1 cup flour. Malnati's crust is quite greasy by comparison and [/u]tastes like they use Crisco. But this might come from a use of cake flour (Uno's uses cake flour and Malnati's is the same recipe) combined with the high oil content.

[loowaters]

I can't tell by your measurements exactly how many TBS of oil you used, but the Gino's east crust is very similar to Giordano's (except for the use of EVOO), which means a ratio of 1 TBS oil: 1 cup flour. Malnati's crust is quite greasy by comparison and [/u]tastes like they use Crisco. But this might come from a use of cake flour (Uno's uses cake flour and Malnati's is the same recipe) combined with the high oil content.

Truthfully, I think I'd have more trouble measuring my cup of flour vs. your cup of flour per 1 T of oil.  I'm horrible when it comes volume measurements, I can't consistently make chocolate chip cookies.  I'll guess your 1 T of oil weighs about 14 g so your cup of flour should weigh something like 78 g. based on that logic and this recipe.  I don't know if that's right or wrong but it should tell you what we're looking at.  With cups weighing 78 g, that converts to 5 3/4 c of flour to make my 14" with a .13 thickness factor.  The 14" following the recipe above will require 449 g of flour, that's just 5 g less than 1 lb. of flour.

I've eaten too much of each pizza mentioned and I'm not so sure I'd make much of a comparison between Gino's East and Giordano's.  Giordano's is thinner and less oily than the Malnati's.  Malnati's crust is a more rich but thinner crust.  I think that Gino's is even less oily, or "greasy" as you put, than both but has a higher thickness factor.  In another post, DKM was pretty accurate in his assessment of Gino's crust when he descibed it as "a thicker more robust crust".  This Gino's recipe has 5% less oil than my Malnati's recipe, which is pretty significant considering the addition of other ingredients like cream of tartar and sugar as well as the increased hydration from my liquid food coloring.  Those ingredients add up to a total of 3.75% of total weight.  Maybe I'm oversiplifying it by stating that's an 8.75% relative reduction in oil vs. my Malnati's recipe.  I do know this, Malnati's doesn't use cake flour.  Try it out and see what you get.

Loo

[November]

I'll guess your 1 T of oil weighs about 14 g so your cup of flour should weigh something like 78 g. based on that logic and this recipe.

There's no way a cup of flour can weigh 78g.  Unless someone is measuring their flour on a planet two-thirds the size of Earth, or in a very strong electromagnetic field, flour should weigh no less than 120g per cup, with the exception of whole wheat and larger granule flour.

- red.november

[loowaters]

There's no way a cup of flour can weigh 78g.  Unless someone is measuring their flour on a planet two-thirds the size of Earth, or in a very strong electromagnetic field, flour should weigh no less than 120g per cup, with the exception of whole wheat and larger granule flour.

- red.november

Ah, then just as I thought...there's more oil than some people want to recognize in Chicago Style dough recipes.  Follow baker's percents and you won't go wrong.

[buzz]

I never have a problem with measuring flour with a measuring cup!

As for preference, everybody's taste is different, so what you like is what you like. personaly speaking, i think Malnati's/Uno's is awful--very greasy. Gino's is just like Giordano's (perhaps a bit less flaky), except for the powerful taste of extra virgin olive oil. I don't know about Malnati's flour (except that Uno's and Malnati's are the same recipe), but Uno's definitely uses cake flour (as confirmed by their corprate headquarters).

In the end, you have to make what pleases you--and this is the value of experimentation.

[loowaters]

I know these are looking the same but here's a 14" made with the above recipe.  The pie is 1/2 sausage and pepperoni, 1/4 just sausage, and 1/4 Canadian bacon.

[BTB]

Yesterday I made my second attempt to make a Chicago Style deep dish pizza with some of the Gino's East characteristics and it was a great hit with the family.  It turned out crunchy, crispy, and very tasty, the way everyone here likes it.  I sought to avoid the soft white bread thing you experienced, Loo.  Here's the recipe that I followed for a 12" pizza:

100% Harvest King Flour (ran out of KAAP)
46% water
14% corn oil
2.75% evoo
1% shortening
1% sugar
1% honey
.5% cream of tartar
.35 yellow food coloring
.75 IDY

Thickness factor of .125, dough ball weight of approximately 20 ozs.

I mixed all the dry ingredients by hand with a wooden spoon, put the yellow food coloring in very cold water (kept in freezer a short while), added the water to the dry ingredients until well blended.  Then I added the oils and the honey (just a small squirt - est. to be near a half tsp) along with a little less than a tsp of Crisco, and kneaded for about a minute.  I let it rise a little in a covered bowl for about an hour then placed the dough ball in a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator for 24 hours plus.  Took the dough ball out of the refrigerator about 2 hours before cooking. 

I used a new Pizzaware 12" pan that is 2" deep, into which I put about a quarter of a cup of regular olive oil, spread and flattened the dough ball on a floured counter till about 15" in diameter and carefully picked up the dough and placed in the pan while crimping the sides to about 1.5 inches.  I had previously pressed out the dough in the pan before, but to avoid the slip and slide with the olive oil in the pan, I thought I'd try to put the pressed out dough straight into the pan, which worked out really well.  I then put in sliced mozzarella, sausage patty, 6 in 1 sauce (drained) along with some small diced tomatoes, and added some Italian spices, salt, minced garlic, sprinkle of sugar, and a good amount of imported grated parmesan sprinkled on top of it all.  Baked at 450 for about 27 minutes on the bottom shelf of my electric GE oven, turning on the convection feature for the last 6 or 7 minutes since we like the top of the pizza darkened a little.

The family all thought that this was the best deep dish pizza that I've done to date.  It was really great.  Here is a picture of the cooked pizza.       --BTB

[BTB]

Here were the last few slices that didn't last very long after I took the picture.  Every crumb was lustfully consumed.

[loowaters]

Looks really good.  I love the thin upper crust thing ya got goin' with this.  I like to do that with my Malnati's crust, just pinch it really thin.

Loo

[BTB]

Below is a picture of the Pizzaware 3 piece pizza pan set that I picked up the other day from a local kitchen supply store and in which I made the above deep dish pizza.  It include 12" pans and a trimming lid for classic and deep dish style pizzas and is made from hard-coated anodized aluminum.  You can check their products out at www.chefsplanet.com.  Has anyone else had any experience with their pizza pans?  So far I have been very satisfied with the deep dish pan, but haven't tried the classic style pan yet.

[Pete-zza]

BTB,

Out of curiosity, did you use the new deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html to come up with the quantities of ingredients to use? It seems a natural for what you did.

Peter

[BTB]

Oh I've definitely been using the new deep-dish dough calculating tool ever since it came out recently.  That's all I use now.  It is really great and simple to use and very helpful when you want to experiment a bit and see what a little change here and there does to the formulation.  Outstanding tool. 

[Pete-zza]

BTB,

Thanks for the feedback. It helps to know whether the tool is proving useful to our members.

If you come up with a blockbuster deep-dish dough formulation, you might consider using the Copy feature of the tool to display all of the quantities for your particular formulation in a post, together with the related information (pan size, pan depth, dough depth, pan shape, thickness factor, dough ball weight, etc.) to allow others to use the tool to reproduce your data, or to use to modify your formulations for a different pan size. I believe you provided the related information for your most recent creation in your previous post(s).

Peter