Forni Cirigliano

[shango]

Hi all.

I am getting ready to start a new job (yay!) 

I will be starting the pizza operations there.  They are using an italian made oven from the company Forni Cirigliano.  It looks nice, but, we all know you can't judge an oven by it's facade.

Has anyone here heard of, used or know anything about these ovens?

Any info would be appreciated.

Again the name is Forni Cirigliano..

Thanks,
-E

[shango]

I just realized this is probably better in the Pizza Ovens section.  Oops.

If you must move it, do so.

[pizzanapoletana]

These are huge ovens, more like bread ovens then pizza as they also consume tons of wood and do not really cook quick enough for Pizza Napoletana.

I have seen one in London.

Ciao

[November]

Marco,

I'm sure like most manufacturers of anything, they make more than one size.  The Modello Capri for instance doesn't look that large.  They also mention adapting their ovens to any size needed.

http://www.ciriglianoforni.it/prodotti.html

- red.november

[pizzanapoletana]

November,

I know these ovens very well, I was just trying to be objective with what is visible without going into too much details as you are aware I am involved with another product. A friend of mine also has a smaller home version.... still with the same issues... I would not even have replied if I was not sure of what I was saying....


If you had tried wood ovens, good and bad, we could have a nice discussion about this, but there is no point about discussing theory on this....

The mouth is too large  in proportion, to all their model, and that is one of the reason their oven consume too much wood, and they use a type of brick that could be good for a certain application but not so good for another application.

Dimensions, shapes etc.. do not re-assemble a neapolitan pizza oven, and I believe shango trys to replicate that type of pizza.

regards

[November]

as you are aware I am involved with another product.

Which is why I fully expected that kind of response.

[pizzanapoletana]

So question the response, do not come up with assumptions that show the limitation of your information (e.g. reading about or checking a website).   Did you ask why I was saying that or what exactly was saying? No! You came up with a "probable theory" about sizes.. Talking about manufacturer... when you are actually talking about one ARTISAN.

The "problem" is that I have been using wood burning oven for about 14 years.... (and I am still quite young...) ...

..And I have been talking about ovens since before being involved!
..And I knew the product shango is talking about, not by looking at a website, but checking how it works.

Now what you expect or not by my answer is up to you, I can assure you that other then being a keen "home" researcher, I actually can make pizza in a professional environment and advise people operating in that environment, with theory as well as practice....

[November]

Marco,

I'm not sure what assumptions you are referring to, but you stated that they are "huge" and not made for pizza as much as they are for bread, despite the fact they are marketing directly to pizza makers, and despite the fact they state making different sizes.  I'm also well aware of what you said about this oven on the pizza.it forums along with the responses you received.  It seems to me you have only an opinion among several about this oven's application for pizza napoletana, and your opinion seems to be based on experience with a single oven.  There are others that view this oven to be just fine for pizza napoletana.  You simply don't agree with them.  The point I was initially making was that they are not all "huge" as you exclaimed.

- red.november

[pizzanapoletana]

It is good to know you read pizza.it, because the person that initially "argued" with me, later on turned out to have never actually used and/or tested one (all messages are visible in the archive....)...

The word huge was referring to the "proportional" volume/and mouth size, which I would have happily specified should you have asked for....

If you want to compare the two in the way the cook (a Neapolitan oven vs the one we are talking about), the next time you happen to be in London I'll take you to two pizzerias, which are 5 minutes walk apart, where I can easily demonstrate to you what I am talking about.

a 100cm diameter oven, with the wrong height and door dimension can be still described by huge in my dictionary that is surely not exhaustive, but can give an idea of what I am talking about....

[November]

the person that initially "argued" with me, later on turned out to have never actually used and/or tested one (all messages are visible in the archive....)...

Where and when did you come by this knowledge?

The word huge was referring to the "proportional" volume/and mouth size, which I would have happily specified should you have asked for....

What is the volume (in cubic centimeters), door dimensions (in centimeters), and ceiling height (in centimeters) of a proper Neapolitan oven and the one we're talking about?

- red.november

[pizzanapoletana]

Where and when did you come by this knowledge?

- red.november

Here: http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=51580 (and the previous messages)

And he (ANGELO PIZZA) was the one originaly arguing with me few weeks earlier in a different post!!!!

Also the word "discreti" means "not too bad"......


The dimension of the neapolitan oven are "X, Y and Z" the one of the other are BIGGER and without using any calculator or comparative spreadsheet, you can see the effect of this statement by using the two.

Both are artisanal product (made by artisan using bricks and mortar, no industrial procedures), and there is a lot of difference even in the way these are assembled, isolated etc... I have seen it and seen the difference.  If you want to add actual information to this post for shango, good, otherwise I am done here.

Again if you want to see the differences of the two, with few minutes walk from one and the other, let me know....

Ciao

[November]

Marco,

I know where the thread is.  I wanted to know where and when you acquired information that discredited rafele.  Apparently you didn't, as you are pointing to ANGELO-PIZZA.

The dimension of the neapolitan oven are "X, Y and Z" the one of the other are BIGGER and without using any calculator or comparative spreadsheet, you can see the effect of this statement by using the two.

I am not going to take anecdotal evidence as proof that one is "huge" compared to the other.  Unless you can provide dimensions for both, your opinion is just that, an opinion, and a somewhat farfetched one at that.  You said you didn't want to talk in "theory," yet you won't provide anything but.  Provide dimensions for the ovens you wish to compare and this conversation might take a more productive path.

- red.november

[pizzanapoletana]

... and this conversation might take a more productive path.

- red.november

It can't because you never use either..... Yes my opinion is my opinion... I know what a pizza napoletana should look like and how it should be cooked.....

I had a longer discussion with Angelo pizza and almost forgot about Rafele. His message, talks about using it at shows/tournaments.... and quality (which I did not question there or here) and "discreti for the pizza napoletana" doesn't mean good or best... When I told him what a Pizza Napoletana was, he doesn't seam to have come back, does he???  (Edited: what is more I know he is involved in some ways with that producer, so as you said earlier, what did you expect from him?) I do not want to discredited him or anything, but he did not really demonstrate his knowledge/understanding or ability to produce Pizza Napoletana on pizza.it, so from behind a keyboard could be as good as anyone on this forum (e.g You could just write to have used one of these ovens, for me is the same. I have posted, talked about and can point you at places that are producing the Pizza Napoletana that I promote!!!). I have been on that forum from 2003 and have seen many people talking/describing wrongly the Napoletana. Coming from Campania (edited: Near Napoli) doesn't guarantee anything as Scott and I previous discussion on this forum demonstrate (re: Pizza in Sorrento).

PS: The difference that the oven I am talking about can make on a pizza napoletana can be easily seen even from a customer point of view as seen on the Il Pizzaiolo thread...

[scott r]

I really don't want to get involved with this conversation , but I feel like I have to mention.......

The pizza I had at Il Pizzaiolo with the new oven (built on site by marco himself and his partner) was the absolute best pizza I have ever had within the US.  Actually it might have even been better than what I had in Naples because Ron takes a slightly American approach of doing a bit more draining of his cheese and sauce than what I found in Naples.

I don't know anything about these Fonri Cirigliano ovens, but I must say that the oven at Il Pizzaiolo in Pittsburgh cooked the pies in 60 seconds perfectly evenly and did not consume much wood at all.  I was shocked at how easy it is to make Neapolitan pizza with the right oven after being to at least 10 places in the US attempting to do so without the right oven.  It is very obvious to me that the correct dimensions/opening etc. do make a HUGE difference in the end product and especially with the ease of getting the pizza evenly baked.  Also, there was no holding of the pie to the roof of the oven for huge amounts of time like I have seen with other ovens.

[November]

It can't because you never use either.....

What does my use of any oven got to do with your comparison?  I understand the importance of making subjective comparisons.  I actually couldn't care less about whether you think one oven is better than the other for pizza napoletana, but I have a problem with you making a comparison based on facts you can't seem to provide.  If you can provide the dimensions for the ovens that you are comparing, you would be far more convincing in your argument that one is too large for pizza napoletana.  If all you're going to provide is a vague description, it would be easy for one to assume you're doing so because you work with a competing product.  Most manufacturers who are unabashed by their product's features give detailed descriptions, not only of their products, but also of those they compete with.

- red.november

[scott r]

Hopefully trying to end this debate before it escalates any further like so many others have.........


I think we are getting into the same debate we always do with Marco and ovens.  For making pizza Napoletanna there is a VERY speciffic oven type that must be used to achieve an even bake because of the insanely high temperatures that are required.  There are many (especially here in the US) that claim to be making pizza napoletanna, but are not coming up with a product that is nearly as good as the original.  They may be using san marzano tomatoes and caputo flour, but they are held back by the dimensions and the makup of their oven.  They make think they are making pizza napoletanna, but in the eyes of someone from Naples they are not.

Now these ovens that are improper for making 60 second pizza are not "wrong" or bad ovens, they can make amazing pizza for sure.  A 2 -4 minute pizza like an elite NY style, or Pizzeria Bianco style, or even Sorrento (italy) sytle pizza would be exceptional using these ovens.

[November]

scott,

I understand your point, but I don't go on record telling someone they use too much flour in their dough if I don't even know how much they used.  I may be able to narrow that down as a possibility when I see their pizza, but just looking at a pizza can't tell me they used too much flour for certain.  I have to actually know how much they used to make that absolute determination.  If one oven doesn't bake like the other oven, fine (although I see no evidence of a difference), but it could be because of factors other than the size, because I'm not seeing where the size difference is coming from.  That's why I wanted to know the dimensions.  It's just that simple.

- red.november

[scott r]

November, I understand.

I do think marco posted the dimensions when he first entered the forum?  could be wrong.

[November]

To give an example of how simple the concept is, here is a post I made about the interior dimensions of the ThermoKool MR-138:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5058.msg42704.html#msg42704

Rather than telling Bill, "You probably will/won't have enough room in the unit for all your dough." I gave the dimensions because they're far more useful than a subjective analysis on volume.  In addition, I didn't buy the unit because someone advised that the unit gets cold, very cold, or really cold either.  That's another area of subjectiveness that I find useless.  I bought the unit because I knew more precisely than that what the temperature range was.

scott, I want to know the dimensions of the product he says isn't worthy too.  It's only fair to ask him for the dimensions since he's the one that made the claim.

- red.november

[shango]

Gentlemen,

No need to be agitated.
So far it seems that none of us have actually laid hands on the forni Cirigliano.
Well, not yet anyway.
I will soon be using one here (in the kitchen of a very highly regarded Italian chef, perhaps you saw one of his appearances on Iron Chef America?).
Anyway, It is not my establishment or oven, but, I will be making pizza in it.
Just wondered if anybody had any experience with it.

Marco, would you consider these ovens better than Woodstone?

I must get to Il Pizzaiolo and look at their lovely oven.

Anybody with any helpful information, please post.

When I am up and running, I will post some pictures..

-E