Forni Cirigliano

[pizzanapoletana]

Shango, all I will tell you now is use it, compare it to your old woodstone, and later when you go to Il Pizzaiolo try to compare your observation to what you see happening there.

November, the internal dimensions and shape of a proper neapolitan oven are with the masters that build these. Looking at the door shape and dimension, you can easily see the difference even without measuring it. My comment was : "These are huge ovens, more like bread ovens then pizza as they also consume tons of wood and do not really cook quick enough for Pizza Napoletana."

So if you had used one would know what tons of wood means and quick enough mean, and with an artisanal product, as I told you many time before, the use of the calculator doesn't give you all the answer.... if you had seen a dome of a neapolitan oven with X diameter and compare it to one of those ovens with the same diameter you would have seen, even without measuring, what a huge difference there is.  You have a problem with my facts??? I would hope that at least your eyes can help you analyze 2 pictures.... I am sorry if you can't...

Look at the door. I hope you know that a larger O2 flow to a fire in a confined space make it burn quicker and that a larger outflow of the burnt gas also contribute to that has well as loosing part of the generated heath.... You may also know that for a few millimiters thick pizza standing on the floor of an oven where the concentration of heat happens some centimeters higher then another one, it will make an important difference?? Luckily there are hundreds of pizzamaker in Naples, that would not know how to describe the above but understand it very well.....

Am I doing that because I work with a competing product?? I do not think so because we were talking about someone that was going to work with that oven, already purchased and in place and if I was talking rubbish he would have realized soon or later.  It may be easy for you to assume so...

You have an Industrial mind, and seams to be difficult for you to understand ARTISAN products...

This is my last response on this subject. I have GIVEN my opinion on the ovens in question, now the audience can take it for what they want.


So, back to shango, keep me updated.

[November]

if you had seen a dome of a neapolitan oven with X diameter and compare it to one of those ovens with the same diameter you would have seen, even without measuring, what a huge difference there is.

Really?  So when you state that the diameter should be between 105 cm and 130 cm (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1908.msg16927.html#msg16927) and the Cirigliano oven is 135 cm, you mean to say that 3.85% difference is huge?  I don't see a huge difference in either the height of the dome or the diameter.  Also, rather than giving fuel requirements in vague terms, I noticed that Cirigliano gives details on exactly how much wood is needed to keep them heated at 450°C.

http://deniinternationalfoods.com.au/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=435&osCsid=e99b7fcb4043aeb1b9bbef1e3209c906

You have a problem with my facts???

What facts?

- red.november

EDIT: I realize that a discussion on dimensions is pretty much a waste of time.  Even if the dimensions are the same, you have a convenient fallback statement:

If you replicate 100% of the shape with other materials and with different building techniques, you could have a worst result then building an approximation that has some principles of a Neapolitan pizza oven. [...] I am not suggesting anyone to build an exact replica because it won't work. You have to trust me on this.

And trust is the one thing I don't have for products without specifications.

[pizzanapoletana]

I am surprised a "scientist" like you are not considering it in volume, which is also affected by the height of the dome and the shape (Did you think also what an almost flat dome oven would  be impacted by few cm higher??? And you are talking a 3.85% not being a big difference on the diameter but we are not talking about surface here....  and do you know how  a Little variance in volume will impact on the performance...Com'on I am still laughing..... 

Please note: All measure of consumptions in your link are purely indicative because must depend by the variety of wood, the status etc....

Brad (settebello) I believe talked about 30% (or a similar value) less wood consumption when he switched oven and do not think there were difference in dimension that YOU would define huge, but for us indeed are. Obviously Il Pizzaiolo is noticing the same (the new oven is much, much smaller in this case, but can allow a larger output (mysteries of the science)).

I can show you in person the comparisons between the two ovens, only few minutes apart... let me know when you are in London.

And as a side final note, although there is always a difference, I was in fact originally referring to their commercial ovens, most likely the 135cm or larger, and most likely the one shango will find at his new workplace..

[pizzanapoletana]

And trust is the one thing I don't have for products without specifications.

because you were never a pizzamaker... A Pizzamaker test an oven, and if it does what the pizza is trying to produce needs, then he orders one....

Again you have intervened in this post talking about something you have never seen or used...

I have talked about two things I have seen and used.

You won't understand because you do not understand the final product. Shango in the past has shown is interest for Pizza Napoletana.

If he was saying " I like to use one of these ovens to produce a pizza like this: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.0.html , well I would not even have intervened... It looks like was made for a supermarket shelf.

[November]

I am surprised a "scientist" like you are not considering it in volume

I asked for the volume and you haven't given it.  I don't find your lack of objectiveness funny, so what are you laughing at?

[November]

because you were never a pizzamaker

You really aren't doing too well with facts today.

Again you have intervened in this post talking about something you have never seen or used...

I intervened not because I care about using either oven.  I intervened because I care about how the ovens are represented, even if I never want to use one.

I have talked about two things I have seen and used.

Yet, you can't tell me the dimensions.

- red.november

[November]

If he was saying " I like to use one of these ovens to produce a pizza like this: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.0.html , well I would not even have intervened... It looks like was made for a supermarket shelf.

I might be insulted, but I don't know what in the world are you talking about?  What looks like it was made for a supermarket shelf, the pizza?  Just so that there isn't any confusion, I don't make pizza to make Marco happy.

- red.november

[shango]

Golly, 

I think it is the 135cm model.  Maybe it was the 150cm.  I am not sure.

I bet there will be some beautiful pizze coming out of it in any case.

[artigiano]

I have read many of Marco's posts and I do believe he is extrmely educated on brick ovens.  However, he is pushing his own product and keep that in mind.  He also feels the need to talk to people like he is the big brother and he has to talk down to you instead of trying to understand where you are coming from.  So if the oven master wants to impress people and sell some of his ovens, I think a little respect from him would be appreciated.  Who wants to buy an oven from someone that doesnt appear to have customer service and understanding.

-Alessandro

[pizzanapoletana]

I have read many of Marco's posts and I do believe he is extrmely educated on brick ovens.  However, he is pushing his own product and keep that in mind.  He also feels the need to talk to people like he is the big brother and he has to talk down to you instead of trying to understand where you are coming from.  So if the oven master wants to impress people and sell some of his ovens, I think a little respect from him would be appreciated.  Who wants to buy an oven from someone that doesnt appear to have customer service and understanding.

-Alessandro

Alessandro,

I do not understand the meaning of your post, but I think you are trying to tell me something???/

Respect for who?

Appear to have customer service??? did any of my client/customer tell you the contrary??? We are talking on a forum here and wasn't paid to do so...

I do promote the Neapolitan oven because is the only means to produce what I consider the best pizza, even when is not exactly what I would produce.

I have searched extensively about ovens as for everything to do with pizza. I came across various producers, some of them have also let me down.... But the conclusion was that there are only 2 families that really knows how to produce authentic Neapolitan ovens. One works in Forno Napoletano and the other one mainly in Naples and only do few ovens every year. I did choose to cooperate with Forno napoletano because it made my job as a consultant easy, as it was the product I would have looked for. If someone asked me what I thought about the other family's ovens, i would honestly said that are very good.

Again I was replying to shango in this post, which I think is try to promote Pizza Napoletana, and therefore would need a Neapolitan oven. Shango was also soon to use it, so mine was also a general synthetic advise. If someone else was saying that he/she wants to make commercial pizza like some chain pizza, then I would not even have bother to reply.

Also, someone that bought one of the ovens in the original post, have seen a Forno Napoletano work, and now want to order one, having to spend again the money for an oven after only 2-3 years... This is not good in commercial terms, and if my advise may be unpleasant for you, it may also save money to someone going into this business...

Again, an authentic Neapolitan Oven is marketed to people that understand the dipendency of it, and people look for it, doesn't need promoters pushing for it.... Speak to the owners of Il Pizzaiolo in Pittsburgh or Donna Margherita in London so they can tell you what a difference their new oven has made compared to their old one... That is respected people in the business that were sold the wrong oven in the first place....

These are facts that anyone can cross check...

Ciao

[artigiano]

Marco,

Like I told you, I know that you are very intelligent in this area.  The only thing I suggest is that you help educate people that are looking for information.  Instead of having a sword fight with someone over who kows more and telling the other guy that he is not worthy of an opinion creates a sense of frusteration for both parties and people reading the posts.  I also believe that America is a slightly different market.. our cheese isn't similar to the Italian cheese and can even burn in one of these ultra low dome ovens, and maybe ovens that are somwhat different can still produce a good quality brick oven pizza.  It doesn't necessarily have to be one of your ovens, but I know that you want to sell and promote yours.  I also understand that you believe only 2 families on Earth can produce a TRUE Neapolitan oven... or is it just a superior Neaopolitan oven?  Either way people here want to learn.. and will be more inclined to lean toward an oven such as yours if you can inform them without questioning their intelligance.  My neighbour Carlo did the same to me.. when I was building a shed he told me I couldnt do it because I wasnt a carpenter, when I built my pizza oven he was the first that told me I couldnt do it because I wasnt a mason.. the only positive for me was seeing how impressed he was when the job was finished.  I would have a lot more respect for him as a carpenter, if he took the time to explain something to me before pointing out how inexperienced I am.  Same goes for the guys trying to learn something here.

[grovemonkey]

Arti,

There was nothing that could be seen as offensive about Marco's original reply to the post that Shango posted.  He just answered the question based on his experience with the oven in question.   It doesn't seem to be at all disrespectful.  It would have been nice to see more people with experience with using the oven then talk about their experience using such an oven, that should have been the logical direction of the post.  Unfortunately, the next posts did nothing to advance the original question.  I'm still waiting for someone else with experience using the oven to talk about what their experiences have been. 

grove
 

[November]

There was nothing that could be seen as offensive about Marco's original reply to the post that Shango posted. [...] It doesn't seem to be at all disrespectful.

I really didn't want to perpetuate this type of discussion, but I must beg to differ.

These are huge ovens, more like bread ovens then pizza as they also consume tons of wood and do not really cook quick enough for Pizza Napoletana.

The term "huge" remains unsubstantiated.  The description of "more like bread ovens" would be offensive to the manufacturer since they obviously market to pizza makers.  That description would also be offensive to current owners of the oven since it implies that they don't know how to pick the right oven to offer pizza napoletana.  The phrase "they also consume tons of wood" remains unsubstantiated.  The phrase "do not really cook quick enough for Pizza Napoletana" remains unsubstantiated.  With all the unsubstantiated opinion Marco offers, it downright insults the consumer's intelligence.  Since the entire post was opinion, and opinions often offend someone, it most certainly could be viewed as offensive.

- red.november

[grovemonkey]

November,

Sorry that you disagree with my opinion.  I really don't think that Marco was trying to attack, offend or disrespect Shango.  I was letting Arti know that if we look at Marco's original reply to Shango, he seem to be offering a fairly reasonable response, in my opinion, to Shango's original question.  I was expecting Arti to respond but.. ok

As a side note, I find it strange that you care about how this oven is represented.  You don't work for the oven company.  You don't intend on using one.  You have no real world experience using the oven and for all intensive purposes don't know anything about it.  Still you care about how it's being represented enough to try to argue with someone that has volumes of experience above you.  I mean Shango never asked the forum members for there scientific analysis of the oven compared to other ovens, did he? 

I just wonder why you would hijack the post in the first place.  You don't know anything about the oven, never used it and will never use it but seem bent to argue about it and went so far as to take over the post.  I forgot, it's because you care about how the oven is represented.  Whatever.

grove

[November]

I was letting Arti know that if we look at Marco's original reply to Shango, he seem to be offering a fairly reasonable response, in my opinion, to Shango's original question.

It seems to me that you're taking sides in your approach, rather than being objective.  It doesn't matter how knowledgable Marco is about ovens, saying that one oven is huge and not designed for pizzas is not reasonable given the evidence.  Even if Marco was my best friend, I still wouldn't hesitate to mention this fallacy.  It isn't fair to the consumer.  Since when do I have to care about the product to care about the consumer?!

As a side note, I find it strange that you care about how this oven is represented.  You don't work for the oven company.  You don't intend on using one.  You have no real world experience using the oven and for all intensive purposes don't know anything about it.  Still you care about how it's being represented enough to try to argue with someone that has volumes of experience above you.  I mean Shango never asked the forum members for there scientific analysis of the oven compared to other ovens, did he?

I find it strange that you don't care about an objective review of a product.  I also find it strange that you care that I care about it.  Isn't that a bit hypocritical?  Where is your zealously coming from?  Did I ask for your analysis on my desire to know how large these ovens are?  I noticed that Marco was quick to give dimensions of his pizza he made yesterday.  If he's so knowledgeable about these ovens, why doesn't he have even rough dimensions for them?  Why is it so difficult, or so much to ask to obtain, an objective qualifier for the opinion of others?  An opinion on flavor, aroma, or appetizing appearance is one thing, but offering an unqualified review based on something as technical as dimensions doesn't bode well.  All Marco would have had to do is call up his friend and ask him to take some measurements.  If that's too much to ask, then obviously he doesn't feel too strongly about supporting his own opinion.

I just wonder why you would hijack the post in the first place.  You don't know anything about the oven, never used it and will never use it but seem bent to argue about it and went so far as to take over the post.  I forgot, it's because you care about how the oven is represented.  Whatever.

I didn't hijack anything.  Unlike Marco, I actually gave technical information about the oven in question, including a link and the one dimension I could find.  What technical information have you contributed thusfar in this thread?  I must have missed it.

- red.november

[grovemonkey]

November,

I have to disagree with you on a number of points.

1.  The use of reasonability in my response relates to the fact that Shango was asking for an opinion and not some objective evidence about the oven.  Marco's response is reasonable because Shango is asking for only an opinion.  That's fairly clear to see.

2.  I care about both objective and subjective evaluations as they both can shed light on any product.  Sometimes "objective" or empirical information is prepared under ideal situations and fall apart when actually implemented.  It is the subjective evaluations based on experience that give us the best possible evaluation of a product.  In fact, I would be interested in a more empirical evalution, if it were possible.

3.   You said, "Why is it so difficult, or so much to ask to obtain, an objective qualifier for the opinion of others? "  In many cultures to ask such a thing would be very offensive.  The fact that you don't trust the opinion of the professional when you are the layman is generally considered offensive.  You'd be hardpressed to get an answer anyway.

4.  I didn't think this thread was about contributing technical information.  Certainly, that wasn't what was asked by the person who started the thread.   Is this the direction you want to take the thread?

grove

[November]

1.  The use of reasonability in my response relates to the fact that Shango was asking for an opinion and not some objective evidence about the oven.  Marco's response is reasonable because Shango is asking for only an opinion.  That's fairly clear to see.

4.  I didn't think this thread was about contributing technical information.  Certainly, that wasn't what was asked by the person who started the thread.   Is this the direction you want to take the thread?

Has anyone here heard of, used or know anything about these ovens?

Any info would be appreciated.

"Shango is asking for only an opinion.  That's fairly clear to see." is completely untrue if you're reading the same request I am.  I believe the request had just as much a technical overtone as a solicitation for subjective opinions, so your question about my taking this thread in a technical direction doesn't make any sense.  I know that "any info" implies the inclusion of opinions by some standards, and I'm sure Shango welcomes any opinions, but saying that an oven is huge when it isn't is technically disinformation.  That's why I asked for the dimensions.  If you don't care about disinformation, that's your prerogative, and you're welcome to it.  It isn't like Marco replied to Shango in a personal message.  He replied in a public post for all to see.  We all have an obligation to ensure the accuracy of the information posted here.  That's what communities are for.  The term "huge" seemed unrealistic given the evidence, so all I wanted was proof that it's huge.  I can't even begin to comprehend why you have a problem with this.

- red.november

[grovemonkey]

November,

Even if Shango was asking for knowledge rather than an opinion the response is still reasonable and clear, my misuse of opinion in this case shouldn't affect this.  Even if what he said was presented as what he knows about the subject, it still doesn't detract from the statements fairness and reasonability.   

 By initially trying to cast doubt on Marco's statement and then following it up with a sarcastic comment, you set the tone for a argument and successfully hijacked the conversation.  Worse yet, you tried using the companies website to cast doubt on his opinion and then get defensive when he basically tells you to bugger off.  Lame. 

Now can you comprehend why I have a problem?

grove

[November]

Worse yet, you tried using the companies website to cast doubt on his opinion

How terrible of me to find a contradiction and a valid reason to question the opinion.

Now can you comprehend why I have a problem?

No, I can't.  I was mainly interested in the integrity of the information, but you seem much more interested in making this personal, so you can take up whatever issues you have with me in a personal message.

- red.november

[pizzanapoletana]

The evidence is that for a pizzamaker (not someone working following a recipe at chain pizza), small difference makes a huge difference in terms of performance (doubling or trebling the cooking time of a pizza).

The evidence are there to see at few minutes distance in two pizzeria in London, and I would be happy to show anyone that cares to see.

I am talking about pizza napoletana and can back up my comment by results without spending time in analyzing number on a forum. And as Grovemonkey as noted, my post was answering Shango question based on my experience, and I have even said where it was based (..I have seen one in London.. was a synthetic message about this).

November cares with facts and good representation, without having ever used one he thinks he can extrapolate all the info from few measurement... What a miss..

I forgot, November once said to be using a wood oven and grill, but by seeing the pictures of his pizza, I struggle to see the difference with an home electric oven... and this is someone talking about wood ovens.....

Many other manufacturers market oven for pizza, can you care to ask Brad at settebello what the original oven he bought was marketed for..


Artigiano,

I was not the one originally questioning the intelligence or less of someone? I have given my opinion and someone else was questioning the base of my answer (honesty???) because "he expected to be base on something...", should I not be offended???

Of course I will question what experience he/she have with the subject in question..

Finally, as groovemonkey said, I cannot see what was added in terms of opinion or experience to this post, other then my first hand observation and opinion.


Is this a constructive forum???

Ciao