doughlemma

[zandonatti]

Here's my dough dilemma:

Using the 00 flour, and Bill's classic hydration/salt/starter formula, I bulk ferment the dough at room temp for 8 hours, then bulk in the  fridge for another 30 or so, then separate it into balls, and put those in the fridge.

On the 3rd day, it has risen.  So I use it, and it is fairly easy to work with.  The pizza comes out very good, but it lacks enough of the flavor complexity in the dough that you get with a longer fermentation.

So then I let the other balls (from the same batch), sit another 3 or 4 days, for a total of 6 or 7 days.  Now I find the dough very hard to work with.  For example, on the 3 day dough, I can hold the dough up in the air, holding on to just one edge, and the dough will sag just a little bit.  But if I do this same thing with the geriatric dough, the dough would tear and drop onto the counter top.  So the 6 or 7 day dough is much, much harder to work with.  The crust definitely has more flavor complexity, but doesn't rise as well and is usually dense and tough.

So is the trade-off I need to make:  dough with more crumb and better texture (3 day ferment) vs dough with more flavor but bad crumb and texture?

Or am I doughing something wrong?

[Pete-zza]

Z,

Unless you use a different starter that contributes more flavor in the finished crust, or you use a different preferment arrangement that will provide material flavor-enhancing byproducts of fermentation and sufficient acidity to strengthen the dough over a prolonged period of time, I think you may have to trade off flavor for better handling qualities. As noted in this post by pizzanapoletana (Marco), at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3057.msg25916.html#msg25916 (Reply 2), there are certain actions that occur with long fermentations that can adversely effect the gluten structure, including its breakdown and release of water. Often the degradation of the gluten structure occurs almost simultaneously with the fermentation process coming to an end, with reduced yeast performance and reduced levels of residual sugar to contribute to good crust coloration, crumb and texture. At this point there is almost nothing that can be done to reverse the situation, like adding more flour to absorb the water, re-shaping or re-balling the dough and letting it rest to recover, etc. A dough at this stage will also be prone to tearing and thin spots because of the damaged gluten structure.

Peter

[Bill/SFNM]

zi,

I hope you're not referring to my formula, because mine is constantly evolving - nothing classic about it. These days I am not buying the premise that longer necessarily means better flavor. It can definitely mean more sour depending on your culture, but that is not what I am aiming for. I get all the flavor I need from 24-hour dough. I'm still in the midst of trying a bunch of different things, but my latest batch with 19 hours @ 64F (bulk ferment) and 5 hours at 75F (proof) had great flavor and texture. 

Bill/SFNM

[scpizza]

my latest batch with 19 hours @ 64F (bulk ferment) and 5 hours at 75F (proof) had great flavor and texture. 

I'm also getting good results with a regimen just like this.  Come to think of it, it is likely a similar regimen to what classical pizzerias use, with a long basement ferment overnight followed by balling the dough in the morning and letting it sit upstairs next to the prep table until needed for lunch and dinner.