Author Topic: New Tom Lehmann Cracker-Style Dough Formulation  (Read 27613 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: New Tom Lehmann Cracker-Style Dough Formulation
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2012, 07:38:19 AM »

Norma, so this was a total of ~28 hour ferment? Was this done entirely refridgerated? or did you room temp any of it?


Dan,

The dough was room temperature fermented for about 27 hrs, then fridge cold fermented for 7 hrs, then room temperature fermented for 9 hrs.  It was about a total time of  about 43 hrs. fermentation.  The dough ball was placed in the fridge overnight because I thought it might over ferment.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: New Tom Lehmann Cracker-Style Dough Formulation
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2012, 08:02:54 AM »
Norma,

I'm glad to hear that you achieved success with the preferment version of Tom Lehmann's cracker-style dough formulation. Your results also confirm that it is indeed possible to use a natural preferment with the cracker-style dough. I wasn't sure how active your starter was, and how a total of 43 hours of fermentation would affect the results, but I wasn't particularly concerned about the leavening effects of the starter since you would be forcing most of the gases out of the dough as you formed the skin. I wondered more about the final crust flavors due to all of the byproducts of fermentation over a 43-hour period and the effects of the acids on the final crust crust coloration and whether the pH-residual sugar relationship was correct.

I know that you wanted to make a decent cracker-style pizza for your own personal reasons but are you considering selling a cracker-style pizza at market? If so, and you decide to use a starter, that would mean having to use an even longer fermentation period, and also some likely adjustments to the amount of starter you use and, if you need a period of cold fermentation as well as at room temperature, how to work that into the schedule.

Peter

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Re: New Tom Lehmann Cracker-Style Dough Formulation
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2012, 08:13:33 AM »
Wow.. that sounds a little "stalkerish"! Thanks for the heads-up. The suspense was killing me.

Dan.

I have worked so closely and for so long with Norma that I have gotten to know how she reports her findings on the forum after the close of work on Tuesday's. I also know that she is extremely diligent about reporting her results and, barring a scheduling conflict, I could pretty much count on her showing up on the forum on Tuesday nights pretty much on time. I was a bit off, however, on the 8:30 PM time I mentioned to you. Norma's first post last night was at 8:24:18 PM, at Reply 239 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.msg185375.html#msg185375.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New Tom Lehmann Cracker-Style Dough Formulation
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2012, 08:56:42 AM »
Norma,

I'm glad to hear that you achieved success with the preferment version of Tom Lehmann's cracker-style dough formulation. Your results also confirm that it is indeed possible to use a natural preferment with the cracker-style dough. I wasn't sure how active your starter was, and how a total of 43 hours of fermentation would affect the results, but I wasn't particularly concerned about the leavening effects of the starter since you would be forcing most of the gases out of the dough as you formed the skin. I wondered more about the final crust flavors due to all of the byproducts of fermentation over a 43-hour period and the effects of the acids on the final crust crust coloration and whether the pH-residual sugar relationship was correct.

I know that you wanted to make a decent cracker-style pizza for your own personal reasons but are you considering selling a cracker-style pizza at market? If so, and you decide to use a starter, that would mean having to use an even longer fermentation period, and also some likely adjustments to the amount of starter you use and, if you need a period of cold fermentation as well as at room temperature, how to work that into the schedule.

Peter

Peter,

I am also glad I was finally able to make a decent cracker style pizza.  I had thought at one point that I never would be successful with this style of pizza.  I think I could improve though. 

When I rolled the dough out at market I was a little concerned that the dough might have overfermented, because as I rolled, there wanted to be a few tears, even though the dough was easy to roll out. I tried to pinch them together, but it can see on the par-baked bottom crust where the tears were.  I donít know if that was because the dough was overfermented or not.  I am not to sure of that because the crust still did brown.

I wonder if I should do this experiment again and use my pH meter to see where the pH of the dough might be.  I really liked the final crust flavors using the Ischia starter.  The Ischia starter was fairly active after I fed it again.  I think it doubled in about 3 Ĺ hrs. 

No, I donít plan on selling this type of pizza at market.  There are too many different ways of messing it up.  It amazes me that from my other experiment with the cracker style at 38% hydration and using Better for Bread flour and then this preferment formulation using 47% hydration with KASL, how they could both produce cracker style doughs.  That is a wide range of hydrations and much different flours.

I still would like to use the Ischia starter at market for a NY style dough though, but probably wonít ever be successful with that.

Norma
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Re: New Tom Lehmann Cracker-Style Dough Formulation
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2012, 09:22:13 AM »
It amazes me that from my other experiment with the cracker style at 38% hydration and using Better for Bread flour and then this preferment formulation using 47% hydration with KASL, how they could both produce cracker style doughs.  That is a wide range of hydrations and much different flours.

Norma,

In the course of my research on the cracker-style dough, I found a fairly wide variation in the types and brands of flour that could be used for that style. One can use either all-purpose flour, bread flour or high-gluten flour, and you will find proponents and advocates on the forum for each flour type. However, I preferred a flour with a relatively high protein content because I found that I could get more crust color, and a bit more flavor, with such a flour. I also discovered, both from my research and my own experiments, that the hydration of the dough was a critical factor and that you didn't want to go much over 45%, and it was preferable to keep the skin on the thin side if you want a really crispy, shatter-type crust, with a thickness factor of the final skin of around 0.06. One could theoretically go over 45% hydration but you would have to come up with ways of getting more of the moisture content out of the dough during baking.

I am talking here about skins that are not subjected to measures such as multiple folding and re-rolling in order to get several lamination layers. As you know, the master and expert on such measures is John (fazzari).

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: New Tom Lehmann Cracker-Style Dough Formulation
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2012, 09:41:12 AM »
Norma,

In the course of my research on the cracker-style dough, I found a fairly wide variation in the types and brands of flour that could be used for that style. One can use either all-purpose flour, bread flour or high-gluten flour, and you will find proponents and advocates on the forum for each flour type. However, I preferred a flour with a relatively high protein content because I found that I could get more crust color, and a bit more flavor, with such a flour. I also discovered, both from my research and my own experiments, that the hydration of the dough was a critical factor and that you didn't want to go much over 45%, and it was preferable to keep the skin on the thin side if you want a really crispy, shatter-type crust, with a thickness factor of the final skin of around 0.06. One could theoretically go over 45% hydration but you would have to come up with ways of getting more of the moisture content out of the dough during baking.

I am talking here about skins that are not subjected to measures such as multiple folding and re-rolling in order to get several lamination layers. As you know, the master and expert on such measures is John (fazzari).

Peter

Peter,

I donít know about you, but found the cracker-style pizza one of the hardest styles to even come close to what might be called a cracker-style pizza.  With all the different flours, hydrations, methods for mixing, how to form a dough ball, how thin the skin needs to be, to dock the skin or not, to oil the par-baked crust or not, how to bake the pizza in a cutter pan or not even par-bake the skin, it is really confusing at least for me.

Thanks for explaining everything it takes to make a cracker-style pizza.

I know John (fazzari) is the master and expert on laminations for a cracker-style pizza.

Norma
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Re: New Tom Lehmann Cracker-Style Dough Formulation
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2012, 11:01:02 AM »
Norma,

What makes it so difficult in a home setting is that we typically use a rolling pin to roll out the skin. It is almost impossible to roll out the skin so that it is the exact size and perfectly round. That means that we have to overshoot the size when rolling out the skin and then use something as a template to trim the skin to the desired size, like a pizza screen or cutter pan. That makes it difficult to get the perfect weight of the skin on the first try, with the precise thickness factor we want. The exercise becomes more of a math exercise and requires using a scale to weigh the skin. If we had a commercial sheeter or roller, the machine would produce either an individual skin of the proper size, shape and thickness or a continuous sheet from which one can cut out skins of the desired size, shape and thickness.

Peter

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: New Tom Lehmann Cracker-Style Dough Formulation
« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2012, 12:48:09 PM »
Peter you crack me up!

Even with a dough sheeter there are a lot of inconsistencies with this style. IMO that is what makes John's input here so valuable. He is one of the few making this style in a commercial setting with a fair degree of consistency. He goes to great lengths to account for some variables I would not have even thought of.

I agree Norma, it's a lot of work and there are a lot of factors that can make the style "hit or miss". When it's good it's really a great crust, when it's bad, I'd rather have a nice NY style.

Offline norma427

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Re: New Tom Lehmann Cracker-Style Dough Formulation
« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2012, 01:48:09 PM »
Peter you crack me up!

Even with a dough sheeter there are a lot of inconsistencies with this style. IMO that is what makes John's input here so valuable. He is one of the few making this style in a commercial setting with a fair degree of consistency. He goes to great lengths to account for some variables I would not have even thought of.

I agree Norma, it's a lot of work and there are a lot of factors that can make the style "hit or miss". When it's good it's really a great crust, when it's bad, I'd rather have a nice NY style.

Dan,

Peter cracks me up sometimes too!  :-D First he is almost called a stalker, and now he makes it sound like if the math is understood then each time, there might be a good crust.  Donít you know by now that Peter takes everything into account, including all the minor details.  All kidding aside, I think it is hard to make this type of pizza and a NY style is much easier. 

You have all the right equipment now, with your sheeter and conveyor oven.  I am looking forward to all of your thin crust pizza attempts.   ;D

John will always be the master of laminated cracker-style crusts. :chef:

Norma
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